Arcanum setting makes no sense

[Vic]

Enters thread for the first time.

Reads this:

Ok, I looked it up. Polar bears can run 40km/h an hour, or 25 mph. So, this is about 33.5 feet per second times 7

Shows himself back out.

 

[Daemongar]

I find the idea of trying to kill a polar bear within 7 seconds using anything short of a punt gun a bit funny. You realize these things weigh like half a ton right?

It's worth noting the largest polar bear on record weighed 2,209 lbs (about a ton) - and stood 12 feet tall. I'm starting to wonder how well I'd fare with a high powered rifle or a bow and arrow when facing an enemy like that. I know where you are going and I agree - forget the bow and arrow and the rifle - whip out the sword and get set to meet that bears charge! I'll bet an average person with a 2' long sword could make easy work of a polar bear.

 

[Daemongar]

Enters thread for the first time.

Reads this:

Ok, I looked it up. Polar bears can run 40km/h an hour, or 25 mph. So, this is about 33.5 feet per second times 7

Shows himself back out.

I updated my math - thanks!

 

[True Ukrainian]

Doesn't this imply that a windlass crossbow would be more advanced than a flashlight or even a lot of simple guns

I do think a crossbow driven by gears would be considered a tech weapon whereas a simple one where you pull it taut is considered neutral.

 

[Pelvis Knot]

Complexity in arcanum refers to complexity in composition not use. A steam engine is more complex than a sling because it has more individual parts.

How do you definite 'parts' then? Is a wicker basket exceedingly complex? Or a boot? How about a pizza, is that going to explode because of all the various toppings? Doesn't this imply that a windlass crossbow would be more advanced than a flashlight or even a lot of simple guns?

The more “prior Tech” a device requires, the more complex it is. A wicker basket is simple because it requires your hands only, or that plus a knife.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Complexity in arcanum refers to complexity in composition not use. A steam engine is more complex than a sling because it has more individual parts.

How do you definite 'parts' then? Is a wicker basket exceedingly complex? Or a boot? How about a pizza, is that going to explode because of all the various toppings? Doesn't this imply that a windlass crossbow would be more advanced than a flashlight or even a lot of simple guns?

The more “prior Tech” a device requires, the more complex it is. A wicker basket is simple because it requires your hands only, or that plus a knife.

This gets even sillier though. Now a fancy hat is super high tech because it requires advanced technology of multiple types to produce various dyes, tailoring techniques, gemstones, embroidery and whatever processing the base material required like silk or furs. God forbid it was made with a sewing machine; may as well be fucking power armour. And I suppose a butterknife would dispel all magic around it if it were made by a sufficiently convoluted rube goldberg machine.


There's just no way for this kind of thing to be internally consistent. The best you can do is leave it at the level of sword and sorcery fantasy tropes don't count as tech for no particular reason, even though armour and swords required a ton of tech to make properly.

 

[Cryomancer]

But 'complexity' is just an arbitrary description with no real meaning.

Is not. More parts interacting with each other makes something more complex.

nd the idea of trying to kill a polar bear within 7 seconds using anything short of a punt gun a bit funny.

The guy is probably dead. I know, but my point is that with the semi auto rifle he has much more chances of survival.

I'm starting to wonder how well I'd fare with a high powered rifle or a bow and arrow when facing an enemy like that. I know where you are going and I agree - forget the bow and arrow and the rifle - whip out the sword and get set to meet that bears charge! I'll bet an average person with a 2' long sword could make easy work of a polar bear.

Winged spears was the main weapon to hunt in medieval times because the "wings" could stop a charging animal, a sword would not stop him even if kills him. Best case scenario, you kill him and die.

IDK any case of a polar bear being stopped by bows or swords BUT in Alaska, there are cases of people stopping it with .44 magnum ( https://www.ammoland.com/2023/05/polar-bear-attack-stopped-with-a-44-magnum-in-alaska/#axzz8hXLEKSQu ). As for .338 lapua magnum, there is no land animal which it can't kill.

 

[Hellraiser]

ITT:

If we could harness the autistic energy flux found in this topic, we could build interplanetary ships capable of reaching Mars within days.

 

[Harthwain]

This gets even sillier though. Now a fancy hat is super high tech because it requires advanced technology of multiple types to produce various dyes, tailoring techniques, gemstones, embroidery and whatever processing the base material required like silk or furs. God forbid it was made with a sewing machine; may as well be fucking power armour. And I suppose a butterknife would dispel all magic around it if it were made by a sufficiently convoluted rube goldberg machine.

There's just no way for this kind of thing to be internally consistent. The best you can do is leave it at the level of sword and sorcery fantasy tropes don't count as tech for no particular reason, even though armour and swords required a ton of tech to make properly.

A top hat specifically is an item that doesn't count towards technical or magical alignment even though it may or may not have been made with the help of some advanced sewing machine. Machinery itself could be impacting the balance between technology and magic (especially when there is a lot of it), but if the end product is mundane, then it isn't affected. The obvious conclusion is that only items that end up being highly technological or magical in nature count as such on the scale (and even then, there is some exceptions, probably because developers didn't account for everything when creating items). Keep in mind that the Dwarves were making high-tech objects, but they didn't affect the balance as much, because they didn't spread it as much as humans did. This is what really tipped the scales: the mass industrialization.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Is not. More parts interacting with each other makes something more complex.

All else being equal, sure. But are multiple parts more complex than difficult to smelt metals? What about a single part that is intricately carved? What if it was carved using elaborate tools? What if it was made in a needlessly complex way, like someone making a selfbow with a modern lathe and belt sander instead of a knife?

How about an electric motor vs a steam engine? The electric one is much simpler with few moving parts. All you really need is wire wrapped around a magnet held onto an axel. But obviously the electric one involves more complicated concepts that took much longer to discover and utilize.

Aside from all that, people tend to be terrible at judging how much tech a thing requires. Chainmail is something most people would assume is way more high tech than stirrups, but they show up around the same point in time. Most kitchen appliances are incredibly simple, being basically simple motors attached to a chunk of metal or simply a bit of wire with current heating it up. But a refrigerator is actually quite complex, involving concepts like the ideal gas law, conservation of energy, thermal conductivity and latent heat of vapourization. I could probably build myself an automatic rice cooker given some basic shit like copper wire and a metal pot. A fridge would be utterly impossible. But the fridge with freon and shit was around 40 years before the rice cooker.

 

[Hellraiser]

I think this topic shows well why Troika didn't bother to go into details on how the magic vs tech interaction works in the world of Arcanum and why.

They might have tried to do it, but if they did clearly at some point sanity prevailed (probably after the first mention of polar bear acceleration and velocity) and they realized they will spend too much time coming up with explanations and dissecting why they wouldn't work. You would just get an endless stream of brainstorming meetings that go nowhere while there is a game to be made. They liked the idea and the stylistic and thematic opportunities it gave them, they knew it can't really be explained in a plausible way, so they just ignored trying to explain it and rolled with it.

 

[Cryomancer]

All else being equal, sure. But are multiple parts more complex than difficult to smelt metals? What about a single part that is intricately carved? What if it was carved using elaborate tools? What if it was made in a needlessly complex way, like someone making a selfbow with a modern lathe and belt sander instead of a knife?

The sword can be made using alien tech, still just a sharp metal, a handle and a crossguard. Not many things that powers to negate natural laws could mess and break. Even is magic messes with it, what bad could happen? the handle becoming a bit smaller or larger? The blade durability changing a bit. Even if magic messes with it, I don't see how magic would destroy a sword. Now, a steam engine could blow up easily if the laws of physics aren't working 100%. And a electric motor, I think that trying to use it in a high magical area of Arcanum would lead to messing the power supply, imbalance in rotors, a temporary short circuit, overheating and many other problems.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

If we could harness the autistic energy flux found in this topic, we could build interplanetary ships capable of reaching Mars within days.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Even is magic messes with it, what bad could happen?

The edge could shatter as the precise crystal lattice of the metal required to make it harden is disturbed in some way? Swords are incredibly finnicky to forge without having them crack or warp because of all the tension in the material as it cools.

Now, a steam engine could blow up easily if the laws of physics aren't working 100%.

Why? Nothing about a basic steam engine is terribly precise. If the heatsource is stronger or weaker, the engine just goes a bit faster or slower. Steam hammer is a thing but would require some pretty massive changes in the laws of physics, like 'oops everyone's blood is now boiling at room temperature' levels.

The electric motor being fucked up by subtle changes makes more sense, because a chemical battery requires a pretty delicate balance. But again, this requires fewer moving parts and ingredients than say, someone making a cake with a manual eggbeater. Why does magic hate the chemical reactions of a battery but not those of a bakery?

The point I'm trying to get across, is that I want a sequel to Arcanum where the mages scour the planet, wiping out baked goods, haberdashers, and cobblers in an effort to restore magic to prominence.

 

[NecroLord]

I find the idea of trying to kill a polar bear within 7 seconds using anything short of a punt gun a bit funny. You realize these things weigh like half a ton right?

Those fuckers are also FAST too.
Chances are if you don't try and take the bear down the moment you see it, it'll come charging right at you...
And this won't end with something like Baldur's Gate 3...
The thing will rip you to pieces.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I don't know if one of you fucks searched for it on youtube or google just scoured my posts or keylogged me; but this showed up in my youtube feed a few minutes ago:

 

[Konjad]

Imagine discussing realism, bear speed vs guns and longbowman shooting distance by making a thread about a fantasy game with magic and elves.

I mean, autism for sure, but this is beyond that. It is something special.

The thing will rip you to pieces.

If only. Bears tend to maim their victims. Many cases with humans too, i.e. calling their families while being eaten by a bear. They are some of the worst horror stories but real.

 

[Ryan muller]

You would just get an endless stream of brainstorming meetings that go nowhere while there is a game to be made. They liked the idea and the stylistic and thematic opportunities it gave them, they knew it can't really be explained in a plausible way, so they just ignored trying to explain it and rolled with it.

Which is exactly why this kind of setting will never make logical sense

Way too much contradictions and possibilities due to the sheer idea of how it works.

As said, they went for the idea and style and ditched much of the cohesion.

 

[Ryan muller]

Yeah I always thought the whole 'tech' thing was pretty silly. Does magic also interfere with looms? How about slings? Basket weaving? "Egads, my sharpened stick isn't stabby any more, there's too much magic in the area!"

The obvious reason why simple blacksmithing isn't causing magic to break down is because the game follows the common fantasy trope of "Sword & Sorcery". I mean, it is all literally in the title. After all, in all fantasy settings you can have an armour set, a sword and a bow coexist with magic. Technology starts to interfere with magic only when it gets too advanced (at least in theory. Obviously the gameplay may differ from that concept here and there).

No, a simulation tries to emulate a situation that has basis on reality

First of all - yes. Yes, because you can't realistically simulate something you have no data for. And making up data is going to be prone to errors (if only because the creator of said data can be inconsistent for various reasons), thus making the whole model faulty. So treating anything like that as an attempt at an accurate simulation is idiotic to begin with.

Secondly - Arcanum is not supposed to have "basis on reality". It is pure work of fiction. At best you could call it soft fiction (exploring certain concepts, as I said before), but given it is still a FANTASY fiction any claims for having "basis on reality" are flat out retarded.

Having basis on reality doesnt mean it HAS to be reality but rather how an element of reality would act within a said circumstance. Every work of fiction that attempts at worldbuilding will ask itself "how would people act if they were in said situation"

Call it emulating a world, simulating a world or simply "logical thought" you will still search for the basis in real world logic and by looking upon how people act.

But again, this is getting extremely autistic calling X or Y wont really change the point in any meaningful way, i dont even inow why your entire focus was concentrated in that.

 

[Ryan muller]

Btw, i dont recall being playable in game, but the Tarantian talks about a Magickal firearm, specifically an invention by Professor Jules Vorvinstern

How the fuck this works?

 

[Hellraiser]

Btw, i dont recall being playable in game, but the Tarantian talks about a Magickal firearm, specifically an invention by Professor Jules Vorvinstern

How the fuck this works?

It exploded and I think killed the guy in a later issue of the Tarantian. The guy was presented as a kind of flat-earther joke type refusing to believe magic and tech can't work together.

 

[NecroLord]

I don't remember that one.
Is it in the Tarantian publication?
You read it in the newspaper?

 

[Hellraiser]

I don't remember that one.
Is it in the Tarantian publication?
You read it in the newspaper?

Embedding doesn't work for the wiki:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/a...gically.png/revision/latest?cb=20140708152314

Well he has not died in an explosion, but by a daemon because he was trying to something something invert daemon affinity to make it technological something. Could have also been a hidden troika in-joke on how nonsensical trying to explain how magic vs tech affinity worked was during development.

 

[NecroLord]

The Arcanum manual also contains information on the Magick - Technology conflict AND lore on all the races of Arcanum.
Arcanum has one of the better manuals in any video game.
Also contains a recipe for banana bread!
I think Tim included it.

 

[Harthwain]

Having basis on reality doesnt mean it HAS to be reality but rather how an element of reality would act within a said circumstance. Every work of fiction that attempts at worldbuilding will ask itself "how would people act if they were in said situation"

But not every work of fiction is a simulation. Which is exactly my point.

But again, this is getting extremely autistic calling X or Y wont really change the point in any meaningful way, i dont even inow why your entire focus was concentrated in that.

Actually, it does. Neither Star Trek nor Star Wars are simulations. They are simply works of fiction. They are nowhere near being realistic, which is the domain of hard sci-fi. Arcanum is in the very same situation: it is a work of fiction that does not aspire to be anything more than it is. Like I said before, maybe you simply don't understand the meaning of the words you use, but if that's indeed the case here, then that's on you and not me.