Arcanum setting makes no sense

[Daemongar]

The balance is completely out of whack and doesn't reflect what things are supposed to be like at a wider societal scale.

Ok that I'll agree with. The in game mechanics of melee vs magic vs firearms gives a huge edge to Melee then Magic then Firearms (in my perspective). However the game lore would have that inverted - Firearms greater than Magic greater than Melee. Yet 90% of enemies and citizens are melee types.

 

[Ryan muller]

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense. I used examples such as the existence of a reanimator device or spells that should completely break the setting

I dont see much of a reason to lower standards when other games achieve that rather ok.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with the setting itself as much as this being a game. In Dragon Age: Origins you can use forbidden blood magic in front of other people and they won't bat an eye, because the game doesn't recognize that as an action NPCs should react to. That's the price of having heavily scripted narrative existing next to separate gameplay mechanics, instead of using gameplay mechanics as baseline for reactive behaviour of the world.

This is actually something that people complain.

In fo1 after you save tandi, her boyfriend wont acknowledge that, making the situation weird, people recognize it and refer to said situation in reviews talking about the game specially from a modern perspective.

In Fallout 2 you can diagnose Cassidy's heart issues and give him a cure

If you give him a drug afterwards, he still dies. This is a case in which the storytelling is directly contradicted by gameplay

However, this also will make it clear that despite cassidy's believe he was never properly healed from his heart condition.

A player that ignores the implications of the simulation when it comes to storytelling throught interaction, ignores the essence of said simulation. You can have a large tolerance for issues with the simulation, however its not right to highly value the text while discrediting the gameplay.

Cassidy heart pill is from a mod.

The Restoration Patch, to be more precise.
You can get those in EPA.
I am not sure what the effects are on Cassidy, I think it is basically nothing at all.

This is in vanilla Fo2

RP only changed the location in which you find the pills

 

[Harthwain]

The game is trying to mirror a world and throught story, writing and art, convey the sensation of being in one in order to invoke immersion, as such, its a simulation. Of which kind doesnt matter.

You clearly use words without understanding their meaning. A simulation is supposed to represent/imitate reality. Arcanum doesn't do that. It is merely a "what if" scenario, with mechanics that have no basis on realism whatsoever. It plays with some concepts and ideas, and it manages to be interesting in that way (way more than most RPGs, by the way) and that's the extent of it. Trying to treat it as some kind of hard sci-fi is beyond stupid and I am done with this nonsense.

 

[Cryomancer]

I'm calling bullshit on this "guns are better than bows" story. When get a little chance, read up on the battle of Caudine Forks

Imagine that you are in middle of North Pole and a polar bear is charging into your direction. You by some reason can chose to use a semi automatic .338 lapua magnum rifle against him or a longbow. Which tool would you use to kill him before he gets close to you. You have 7 seconds to aim and shot to kill.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Why would technology and magic operate on different and and mutually interfering physics in the first place? That makes no sense to develop from first principles. If magic is a naturally occurring phenomenon, then it should not be any different from any other naturally occurring phenomenon and be inseparably tied into how all physical processes function, like childbirth, blood circulation, and blacksmithing. It should be the power source for technology as well as an effect created by technology.

What I think would've made more sense is if there were different kinds of "magic" and some of them didn't play well together. For example, instead of real physics, the steampunk technology is powered by "ether" or some such. The most common form of spellcasting generates interference that messes with ether tech, without negatively affecting, say, living creatures. So it can derail trains, but not give you spontaneous aneurysms because your circulation doesn't rely on ether. Instead of saltpeter, sulfur and charcoal, gunpowder is made out of naturally occurring ingredients that rely on a non-combustion process that magic interferes with. So in certain areas of high ambient magic radiation, guns using that powder cannot fire because the powder doesn't explode.

Essentially, you'd need to invent new types of particles/elements to explain how magic and tech interfere with each other but not other naturally occurring processes like the weather, plant growth, or blood circulation.

Magick is tied to Will.
When you cast a spell, you basically bend the laws of physics through your Will.
Technology reinforces the laws of physics and operates within their boundaries.

Essentially, yeah.
Magic in Arcanum is Reality Warping, molding and imposing on reality according to your Will.
Tech uses Physical Laws and reinforces those when it's doing its thing.
"Clarketech" and "Magitek" don't exist in Arcanum.
The whole point of magic is that while it's natural, as in it's something that exists in-universe, Magic = Subversion of Physical Laws.

I do agree there are some gaps here. Like, why is a normal sword technology neutral but a tech-sword is not? A normal sword is a form of technology, even if it's just blacksmithing.

 

[skaraher]

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense. I used examples such as the existence of a reanimator device or spells that should completely break the setting

I dont see much of a reason to lower standards when other games achieve that rather ok.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with the setting itself as much as this being a game. In Dragon Age: Origins you can use forbidden blood magic in front of other people and they won't bat an eye, because the game doesn't recognize that as an action NPCs should react to. That's the price of having heavily scripted narrative existing next to separate gameplay mechanics, instead of using gameplay mechanics as baseline for reactive behaviour of the world.

This is actually something that people complain.

In fo1 after you save tandi, her boyfriend wont acknowledge that, making the situation weird, people recognize it and refer to said situation in reviews talking about the game specially from a modern perspective.

In Fallout 2 you can diagnose Cassidy's heart issues and give him a cure

If you give him a drug afterwards, he still dies. This is a case in which the storytelling is directly contradicted by gameplay

However, this also will make it clear that despite cassidy's believe he was never properly healed from his heart condition.

A player that ignores the implications of the simulation when it comes to storytelling throught interaction, ignores the essence of said simulation. You can have a large tolerance for issues with the simulation, however its not right to highly value the text while discrediting the gameplay.

Cassidy heart pill is from a mod.

The Restoration Patch, to be more precise.
You can get those in EPA.
I am not sure what the effects are on Cassidy, I think it is basically nothing at all.

This is in vanilla Fo2

RP only changed the location in which you find the pills

There is no diagnosis dialogue in vanilla. The pills happen to trigger a floaty line if you give them to Cassidy but that's about it. They're not referenced before or after. It's a leftover from cut content.

 

[skaraher]

Why would technology and magic operate on different and and mutually interfering physics in the first place? That makes no sense to develop from first principles. If magic is a naturally occurring phenomenon, then it should not be any different from any other naturally occurring phenomenon and be inseparably tied into how all physical processes function, like childbirth, blood circulation, and blacksmithing. It should be the power source for technology as well as an effect created by technology.

What I think would've made more sense is if there were different kinds of "magic" and some of them didn't play well together. For example, instead of real physics, the steampunk technology is powered by "ether" or some such. The most common form of spellcasting generates interference that messes with ether tech, without negatively affecting, say, living creatures. So it can derail trains, but not give you spontaneous aneurysms because your circulation doesn't rely on ether. Instead of saltpeter, sulfur and charcoal, gunpowder is made out of naturally occurring ingredients that rely on a non-combustion process that magic interferes with. So in certain areas of high ambient magic radiation, guns using that powder cannot fire because the powder doesn't explode.

Essentially, you'd need to invent new types of particles/elements to explain how magic and tech interfere with each other but not other naturally occurring processes like the weather, plant growth, or blood circulation.

Magick is tied to Will.
When you cast a spell, you basically bend the laws of physics through your Will.
Technology reinforces the laws of physics and operates within their boundaries.

Essentially, yeah.
Magic in Arcanum is Reality Warping, molding and imposing on reality according to your Will.
Tech uses Physical Laws and reinforces those when it's doing its thing.
"Clarketech" and "Magitek" don't exist in Arcanum.
The whole point of magic is that while it's natural, as in it's something that exists in-universe, Magic = Subversion of Physical Laws.

I do agree there are some gaps here. Like, why is a normal sword technology neutral but a tech-sword is not? A normal sword is a form of technology, even if it's just blacksmithing.

Tech "reinforcing" physical laws kinda makes Tech just another form of magic.

 

[Dark Souls II]

Arcanum's setting makes perfect sense because it is an analogy of irl r/K selection of species. Tech users are r-selected species, they can out-mass-produce you with sheer quantity. Anyone can use a gun (case in point: niggers are in fact able to use guns, although they are known for their poor marksmanship). If you want to have a small army of 100 retards with guns all you have to do is give guns to 100 retards. Magic users on the other hand are K-selected species, they focus on quality, and it takes decades to train one powerful magic user.

tl;dr tech users are niggers and lactose tolerance is magic

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah the explanation of tech vs magic never really worked. If "tech" was something that required the physical laws of the universe to work then every bit of matter is "tech" requiring every atom to obey the exact same laws of the electromagnetic force that exist in the real world and prevent all matter on the planet from collapsing into a neutron star. So the conception of fundamental laws that tech requires has to be different from what we consider it in the real world.

 

[Skinwalker]

If "tech" was something that required the physical laws of the universe to work then every bit of matter is "tech" requiring every atom to obey the exact same laws of the electromagnetic force that exist in the real world and prevent all matter on the planet from collapsing into a neutron star.

Matter that collapses into a neutron star also obeys physical laws of the universe.

 

[Average Manatee]

Matter that collapses into a neutron star also obeys physical laws of the universe.

Fewer of them, though.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Yeah I always thought the whole 'tech' thing was pretty silly. Does magic also interfere with looms? How about slings? Basket weaving? "Egads, my sharpened stick isn't stabby any more, there's too much magic in the area!"

This is why most settings usually tie the conflict into a particular material, like cold iron or something, or tie the magic into spirits that get offended by modern things.

On the subject of 'just hand guns to 100 retards' that doesn't really apply until you get to modern-ish guns. If guns are expensive and require a lot of maintenance and are prone to various failures you'd need to troubleshoot in the middle of battle, your soldiers need to be trained to do all of that. They'll also need all the tools and parts required for that.

Give shitty old guns to 100 retards and a good number of them are going to explode in their hands because they didn't clean them properly, load them properly, keep the powder dry, etc.

 

[Ryan muller]

You clearly use words without understanding their meaning.

I don't

A simulation is supposed to represent/imitate reality.

No, a simulation tries to emulate a situation that has basis on reality, most of the times trying to replicate effects that could happen if a set of realistic conditions happened within a given scenario.

The simulation can be wild, radically different or even impossible, if its based on an the understandment of reality, its possible to simulate, therefore emulate what could happen into a given scenario.

A game which tries to create a world that is believable and as such, portray human comportment, economical goals and needs into a somewhat realistic way, can in essence, be called a simulation, after all, if the devs coded things like schedules for npcs in which they walk in and out of areas as the day progresses, sleeping at night and waking at the morning

Coded reactivity to how people speak to you if you are naked or even dumb, its because they wanted to make thenworld dynamic, therefore, introducing simulational mechanics that do help reinforce the simulation.

In any case, the discussion is meaningless since regardless of how you may want to call, worldbuilding is still full of issues and inconsistencies, which is virtually the point.

 

[NecroLord]

Yeah I always thought the whole 'tech' thing was pretty silly. Does magic also interfere with looms? How about slings? Basket weaving? "Egads, my sharpened stick isn't stabby any more, there's too much magic in the area!"

This is why most settings usually tie the conflict into a particular material, like cold iron or something, or tie the magic into spirits that get offended by modern things.

On the subject of 'just hand guns to 100 retards' that doesn't really apply until you get to modern-ish guns. If guns are expensive and require a lot of maintenance and are prone to various failures you'd need to troubleshoot in the middle of battle, your soldiers need to be trained to do all of that. They'll also need all the tools and parts required for that.

Give shitty old guns to 100 retards and a good number of them are going to explode in their hands because they didn't clean them properly, load them properly, keep the powder dry, etc.

Magick interferes with the most complex forms of Technology - Factories, Steam engines, Trains, and so on.
Not simple implements like slings, as you have said. They would have to be really technologically complex slings for Magick to affect them.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Magick interferes with the most complex forms of Technology - Factories, Steam engines, Trains, and so on.

But 'complexity' is just an arbitrary description with no real meaning. What makes a steam engine more complex than a sling? It's all just physics. You could argue the sling is more complex because hitting the target requires precisely taking into account wind speed, air resistance, gravity, elasticity and a ton of other factors, while the steam engine is basically just expanding gases pushing on a lever and slightly changing the amount of friction or thermal conductivity of a material for a little while won't change shit. We might be able to agree that a 6 letter password is more complex than 4 letters, but pretty much any real example is going to be comparing apples and oranges. Is a horseshoe more complex than a boot? How about a telescope with no moving parts vs a covered wagon with some springs for suspension?

If anything, slightly fucking with the local laws of physics would probably kill lifeforms real fucking fast as their body chemistry failed in some subtle way while a train would just keep going by virtue of momentum and redundant systems.

 

[NecroLord]

If anything, slightly fucking with the local laws of physics would probably kill lifeforms real fucking fast as their body chemistry failed in some subtle way

Like casting the Disintegrate spell on someone?

 

[True Ukrainian]

Great lore, now how do you turn it into good game design? A 10-level techie stands at 10 meters from a 10-level mage, fires a bullet. The bullet itself is a small object emitting a negligible T-field that gets completely obliterated by Mu-physics the closer it flies to the mage. By the time it reaches him, its Tau-effect is 1/10² = 1% of what it was at the source. So instead of doing 10 hp damage, it gently pokes the mage for 0.1 hp damage.

The game gets around this problem by having a neutral class of weapons which are unaffected by subjective physics fields. A level 10 techie throws a Molotov at level 10 mage. Molotovs are classed as neutral weapons. Mage gets his face exploded.

In universe, a properly equipped techie would absolutely rape the mage. The techie has the benefit of two weapon types, and certain guns like the looking glass rifle can pierce mage fields. Mages will have their magic fizzle.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Can't wizards just create a spell that magnetically repels bullets in a force field-like aura? I don't get it. That can't be much harder than raising the dead or conjuring entire creatures from nothing.

Armor spells exist but runs into the problem of subjective physics bester talked about. Mages and techies exert competing spheres of physics which try to neutralize each other. A lower ranked mage would still get shot no matter what force field spell he uses because the tech field would overwhelm his mage field.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

If we're eliminating suspension of disbelief, then I'll have at it.

Magic, being an act of conscious will, is non algorithmic, and works by disturbing ordinary wave function collapse. The presence of minds which operate this way, when of sufficient volume or intensity, cause natural process to behave unexpectedly first on the quantum level then at the classical thermodynamic level.

Technology which then interacts with electrons significantly, even rapidly dissociative or decomposing chemicals, behave unexpectedly. The same for highly thermodynamic processes, like mechanical engines. Automotons have logic, so likely have electronics, chemical batteries, and mechanical apparatus. This is why sophisticated technology is most impacted.

Furthermore, high presence of ordered technological systems increases the entropy in an area, which also lowers the Gibbs free energy in that locality. This causes difficulty for the magician to exercise their will over the subtle quantum forces that push their spells into motion. It's not that magic is anti-nature, it just shifts the equillibrium of forces in a way that are different from what would be expected absent that influence. From a technologists perspective at least.

 

[NecroLord]

Autism.
We all are fucking autists here...

 

[Daemongar]

I'm calling bullshit on this "guns are better than bows" story. When get a little chance, read up on the battle of Caudine Forks

Imagine that you are in middle of North Pole and a polar bear is charging into your direction. You by some reason can chose to use a semi automatic .338 lapua magnum rifle against him or a longbow. Which tool would you use to kill him before he gets close to you. You have 7 seconds to aim and shot to kill.

Ok, I looked it up. Polar bears can run 40km/h an hour, or 25 mph. So, this is about 37 feet per second times 7, so that bear goes - lets just say that bear is a bit over 250 feet from me. I am armed with a bow and arrow. Ok, now I'm starting to feel bad I started down this road, but whatever, I'll finish it.

According to a book on the subject, Welsh and English longbowmen could fire 10-12 arrows per minute (that's pretty wild) as quoted in “Dispelling Some Myths: Would Mediaeval archers really shoot 12 arrows a minute?”

If I had a quiver of arrows, I'd be guaranteed at least one shot, maybe two if I had by bow notched when the polar bear started charging. Now, with that rifle (short video here for reference) that Lapua has a clip but is bolt action, so the first round would be fired in time if you are set. That is, in a prone position looking down the scope or iron sights.

So, if caught off guard, you are never going to get a good shot off with that rifle in 7 seconds. Off guard, you could get at least one arrow off and use the remaining arrows to stab that bear. If set, the rifle would be pretty awesome, but I wouldn't use that rifle as where the fuck are you going to get extra .338 ammo? I'd take my chances with a freedom adorned bullpup 12 gauge loaded with slugs and a clip as you could probably get 3 rounds off shooting from the hip, and you can buy 12 gauge rounds from your local north pole grocery stores. Maybe not the best gun, but it would probably work.

 

[True Ukrainian]

But 'complexity' is just an arbitrary description with no real meaning.

Complexity in arcanum refers to complexity in composition not use. A steam engine is more complex than a sling because it has more individual parts.

Even between simple swords, a sword made out of alloys is considered tech while an iron sword is considered neutral.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I find the idea of trying to kill a polar bear within 7 seconds using anything short of a punt gun a bit funny. You realize these things weigh like half a ton right?

 

[Damned Registrations]

Complexity in arcanum refers to complexity in composition not use. A steam engine is more complex than a sling because it has more individual parts.

How do you definite 'parts' then? Is a wicker basket exceedingly complex? Or a boot? How about a pizza, is that going to explode because of all the various toppings? Doesn't this imply that a windlass crossbow would be more advanced than a flashlight or even a lot of simple guns?

 

[Harthwain]

Yeah I always thought the whole 'tech' thing was pretty silly. Does magic also interfere with looms? How about slings? Basket weaving? "Egads, my sharpened stick isn't stabby any more, there's too much magic in the area!"

The obvious reason why simple blacksmithing isn't causing magic to break down is because the game follows the common fantasy trope of "Sword & Sorcery". I mean, it is all literally in the title. After all, in all fantasy settings you can have an armour set, a sword and a bow coexist with magic. Technology starts to interfere with magic only when it gets too advanced (at least in theory. Obviously the gameplay may differ from that concept here and there).

No, a simulation tries to emulate a situation that has basis on reality

First of all - yes. Yes, because you can't realistically simulate something you have no data for. And making up data is going to be prone to errors (if only because the creator of said data can be inconsistent for various reasons), thus making the whole model faulty. So treating anything like that as an attempt at an accurate simulation is idiotic to begin with.

Secondly - Arcanum is not supposed to have "basis on reality". It is pure work of fiction. At best you could call it soft fiction (exploring certain concepts, as I said before), but given it is still a FANTASY fiction any claims for having "basis on reality" are flat out retarded.