Arcanum setting makes no sense

[Ryan muller]

As for being able to use some magic or tech items while on the opposite alignment, I dunno, oversight or just trying not to completely lock players off from stuff?

Probably the later, specially considering the magic allergy background used to make the game unbeatable because they didnt thought well about it, until a patch could fix it.

 

[Ryan muller]

There are plenty of inconsistencies. I think the OP has focused on the wrong ones.

I focused on the ones that actually bothered me while playing, as said, the culmination being with the reanimator stuff being so dumb i just couldnt take it seriously anymore.

 

[ogreman99]

I'd guess the fatigue system is a representation of a life force system that they reused for melee combat. It would not be fun if spells took part of your HP to cast. Even so, do you expect a mage to carry a cart full of fatigue potions everywhere he goes? Would be very stupid and funny.

 

[Ryan muller]

I'd guess the fatigue system is a representation of a life force system that they reused for melee combat. It would not be fun if spells took part of your HP to cast. Even so, do you expect a mage to carry a cart full of fatigue potions everywhere he goes? Would be very stupid and funny.

You know soldiers position supply crates at strategical points right?

 

[Baron Tahn]

Well no fantasy setting makes a lot of sense, its not like magic is real.

Arcanum thinks more about it than some, the idea that tech and industry, not just weapons, is weakening the fabric of magic in general is a nice touch - why pay a mage huge premiums to bkess a crop yield when you can invest in a combine harvester, why pay for teleportation when you have mass transport.

A bit of a nod to our own faerie mythology in Arcanum (faeries and magic and shit was there once but then mankind started to advance and the magic died and elves/fae shit fucked off somewhere. The whole 'the fae hate cold iron' idea.)

 

[S.torch]

The worst part of Arcanum setting is that it pushes for technology too much. You're never handed the option to go full magic supported despite both being presented as equal options. The game always pushes for the adoption of technology or at best some wholesome centrist position, which is pretty meh.

 

[JarlFrank]

Now comes the logistical question again: can you produce fatigue potions in a factory, or do they have to be created by a magical artisan?
As far as game mechanics go, "technological" healing items don't work as well on wizards, and that includes herbal remedies made by herbalist women living in shacks. So magic potions have to have a different creation process than just mixing ingredients together. There has to be some magic involved. Perhaps a special enchanted cauldron, or a ritual performed during the brewing process.

That means producing potions at an industrial scale would be a challenge. Certainly harder than mining coal for a steam engine, or mass producing bullets for your rifle-armed infantry.

The important consideration is: how many fatigue potions do you have to supply a wizard with to make him consistently put out as much damage as a cannon loaded with explosive artillery shells? And how logistically feasible is it to create that amount of fatigue potions, compared to mass producing explosive artillery shells?

If you can simply out-produce the wizards, you're going to win by sheer logistics. It's that simple.

At the end of WW2, Germany had the best tanks of the war. Yet they still lost because both the Americans and the Soviets could out-produce Germany and push way more men and material onto the battlefield than we could ever hope to. In war, production capacity and your ability to get the required resources to the front matters more than the combat capability of any individual unit.

And Arcanum's lore clearly implies that technology is overtaking magic by virtue of being easier to mass produce, easier to pick up for laymen, and more efficient at a large scale.

 

[Average Manatee]

We also have to consider the social aspect. The unwashed masses love the idea of technology that potentially puts them on the same level as anyone else. Only the king, his mage advisors, and his personal guard of highly enchanted footsoldiers like magic domination. Hence the theme of revolution against the old entrenched aristocracy.

 

[Damned Registrations]

In war, production capacity and your ability to get the required resources to the front matters more than the combat capability of any individual unit.

Not a history/war guy, but I suspect there are counter examples to be had when it comes to colonists wiping out natives. There comes a point where quality overwhelms nearly any quantity, and I think that's easier to achieve in a fantasy setting. How many guys with swords or guns does it take to defeat a fire or water elemental? What good is an army when invisible wizards can fly over a city in the middle of the night and set it on fire or gas everyone? How do you defend an entire railway from enemies that have no supply lines and can essentially ignore terrain?

 

[Beans00]

The only people who don't like arcanum are bowlcuts like roguey and lhynn.


You can tell a lot about a person by their top 10 rpgs. Arcanum is one of the 3 best rpg's ever.

 

[Ryan muller]

Now comes the logistical question again: can you produce fatigue potions in a factory, or do they have to be created by a magical artisan?
As far as game mechanics go, "technological" healing items don't work as well on wizards, and that includes herbal remedies made by herbalist women living in shacks. So magic potions have to have a different creation process than just mixing ingredients together. There has to be some magic involved. Perhaps a special enchanted cauldron, or a ritual performed during the brewing process.

That means producing potions at an industrial scale would be a challenge. Certainly harder than mining coal for a steam engine, or mass producing bullets for your rifle-armed infantry.

The important consideration is: how many fatigue potions do you have to supply a wizard with to make him consistently put out as much damage as a cannon loaded with explosive artillery shells? And how logistically feasible is it to create that amount of fatigue potions, compared to mass producing explosive artillery shells?

If you can simply out-produce the wizards, you're going to win by sheer logistics. It's that simple.

At the end of WW2, Germany had the best tanks of the war. Yet they still lost because both the Americans and the Soviets could out-produce Germany and push way more men and material onto the battlefield than we could ever hope to. In war, production capacity and your ability to get the required resources to the front matters more than the combat capability of any individual unit.

And Arcanum's lore clearly implies that technology is overtaking magic by virtue of being easier to mass produce, easier to pick up for laymen, and more efficient at a large scale.

Thats pretty much headcannon, theres WAY more fatigue potions than fatigue restorers in the game's shops, specially im general stores. Its ridiculously frequent and very easy to come by which defeats the entire argument

 

[Skinwalker]

I don't think all the items you buy in stores are supposed to be setting-relevant. There is such a thing as gameplay and story segregation.

 

[Poseidon00]

Can't wizards just create a spell that magnetically repels bullets in a force field-like aura? I don't get it. That can't be much harder than raising the dead or conjuring entire creatures from nothing.

 

[Ryan muller]

I don't think all the items you buy in stores are supposed to be setting-relevant. There is such a thing as gameplay and story segregation.

If the lore says "this product is rare, extremely difficuly to produce and you wont find in the entire region"

And then you proceed to find in literally any part of the map in abundant quantity, it pretty much makes the text irrelevant, part of why people who are in favor of writing in video games will present a defence against the argument of "want a story? Read a book" is the inherently difference in the way you can provide storytelling throught mechanical interactivity in games

If the same thing that should elevate and make your story different in how its told, actually make it worse, its pretty pointless. If a game is cohesive and provide the experience as a very well thought out package in which different elements of the game design communicate between one another seamlessly, thats when you achieve a solid product.

Its also why exposition can only achieve so much in any form of visual storytelling.

 

[Skinwalker]

If the lore says "this product is rare, extremely difficuly to produce and you wont find in the entire region"

And then you proceed to find in literally any part of the map in abundant quantity, it pretty much makes the text irrelevant

Is that the case with resurrection scrolls in Arcanum?

 

[Average Manatee]

In war, production capacity and your ability to get the required resources to the front matters more than the combat capability of any individual unit.

Not a history/war guy, but I suspect there are counter examples to be had when it comes to colonists wiping out natives. There comes a point where quality overwhelms nearly any quantity, and I think that's easier to achieve in a fantasy setting. How many guys with swords or guns does it take to defeat a fire or water elemental? What good is an army when invisible wizards can fly over a city in the middle of the night and set it on fire or gas everyone? How do you defend an entire railway from enemies that have no supply lines and can essentially ignore terrain?

Every instance I'm aware of with colonists vs. natives the only overwhelming odds wins required machine guns. All other incredible successes generally involved a lot of native assistance and superior command and control of forces. e.g. with enemy armies often infighting or refusing to assist each other while colonist forces were 100% loyal and under strict hierarchical control.

Also it works both ways.

Can't recall if Arcanum has artillery but it has guns that are 19th/early 20th century level so there should be some WW1-level artillery available.

 

[Ryan muller]

If the lore says "this product is rare, extremely difficuly to produce and you wont find in the entire region"

And then you proceed to find in literally any part of the map in abundant quantity, it pretty much makes the text irrelevant

Is that the case with resurrection scrolls in Arcanum?

It was an example

Specifically to counter the one Jarl used to say potions werent mass produced in-lore

However, Ressurection scrolls are in fact not very rare, annnd not very costly.

 

[Skinwalker]

If the lore says "this product is rare, extremely difficuly to produce and you wont find in the entire region"

And then you proceed to find in literally any part of the map in abundant quantity, it pretty much makes the text irrelevant

Is that the case with resurrection scrolls in Arcanum?

It was an example

Specifically to counter the one Jarl used to say potions werent mass produced in-lore

However, Ressurection scrolls are in fact not very rare, annnd not very costly.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Ryan muller]

If the lore says "this product is rare, extremely difficuly to produce and you wont find in the entire region"

And then you proceed to find in literally any part of the map in abundant quantity, it pretty much makes the text irrelevant

Is that the case with resurrection scrolls in Arcanum?

It was an example

Specifically to counter the one Jarl used to say potions werent mass produced in-lore

However, Ressurection scrolls are in fact not very rare, annnd not very costly.

You didn't answer my question.

No, the lore dont say ressurection spells and scrolls are rare

I dont get your point tho

 

[Ryan muller]

Skinwalker i think you need to read the entire post, you are supporting what i previously said while thinking you are somehow making a point.

 

[Daemongar]

Now comes the logistical question again: can you produce fatigue potions in a factory, or do they have to be created by a magical artisan?

I think in the game, there were all kinds of "over the counter" fatigue restorers, most non-magical. Yes, you could mass produce fatigue relief, but maybe not potions.

I think folks are viewing Tech vs. Magic in the wrong light. They are reviewing Magic through the games logic and Tech through the real world logic. You need to view tech (guns) through the game logic. Most enemies used melee weapons, even though any slob can use a gun. Why is that? Because using guns also required training (apprentice, etc), skills (perception), and guns were pretty expensive, unless you could craft them - and even then you'd have to be an adventurer, find schematics and bullets, and have quite a few levels under your belt.

To turn it on its head, if two major armies clashed with one side obliterating the other because one side had guns - guns would be everywhere and cheap. But they weren't and armor and swords weren't cheap either. See, trained gun users were and are as rare as magic users in the game. Actually, even rarer. The only real gun toting crews you meet are the folks in Broken Hills robbing the bank. Magic doesn't cost anything - so BY IN GAME LOGIC - a peasant would be better off learning magic as it's free, than learning a gun which requires a gun, bullets, and the same amount of leveling up.

 

[ogreman99]

Ah yes, the "Fatigue Potion Revolution", where wizards somehow managed to industrialize fatigue potions. That's going to be a headline in the Tarantian.

Now comes the logistical question again: can you produce fatigue potions in a factory, or do they have to be created by a magical artisan?

I think in the game, there were all kinds of "over the counter" fatigue restorers, most non-magical. Yes, you could mass produce fatigue relief, but maybe not potions.

I think folks are viewing Tech vs. Magic in the wrong light. They are reviewing Magic through the games logic and Tech through the real world logic. You need to view tech (guns) through the game logic. Most enemies used melee weapons, even though any slob can use a gun. Why is that? Because using guns also required training (apprentice, etc), skills (perception), and guns were pretty expensive, unless you could craft them - and even then you'd have to be an adventurer, find schematics and bullets, and have quite a few levels under your belt.

To turn it on its head, if two major armies clashed with one side obliterating the other because one side had guns - guns would be everywhere and cheap. But they weren't and armor and swords weren't cheap either. See, trained gun users were and are as rare as magic users in the game. Actually, even rarer. The only real gun toting crews you meet are the folks in Broken Hills robbing the bank. Magic doesn't cost anything - so BY IN GAME LOGIC - a peasant would be better off learning magic as it's free, than learning a gun which requires a gun, bullets, and the same amount of leveling up.

Formations used an effective mass of people to achieve total accuracy in wars. Something mages could not do and it's something that requires barely no training. If you're a peasant, you'd be probably extremely retarded and unable to read (depends on the quality of teaching on world of arcanum, which is probably low for peasants). Really, it comes down to the decision of "do I buy a gun or a shortsword with this pittance I've saved from farming". Adventurers are another sort, but i'd bet on the gun at any time.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think people are also taking a narrow view of producing potions based on how it works in DnD. You could just as easily have a setting where a wizard can turn a swimming pool's worth of water into a magical potion with a ritual that doesn't get any more difficult as you scale it up, or where potions can be made hyper concentrated so a bathtub can create a million doses a week because all you need for the effect is a thimbleful. Or the whole process is very passive and requires almost no labour so you can just set up hundreds of batches to cook at the same time. Lots of angles to make that work from.

 

[Daemongar]

I think people are also taking a narrow view of producing potions based on how it works in DnD. You could just as easily have a setting where a wizard can turn a swimming pool's worth of water into a magical potion with a ritual that doesn't get any more difficult as you scale it up, or where potions can be made hyper concentrated so a bathtub can create a million doses a week because all you need for the effect is a thimbleful. Or the whole process is very passive and requires almost no labour so you can just set up hundreds of batches to cook at the same time. Lots of angles to make that work from.

Also, non magical treatment of wounds requires a doctor or some knowledge. Which side would you be on? Your leg lies next to you, blown off by some elephant gun, blood and gore covers everything around you. Miraculously, you are at 1 hp! Can you rub your gun on it and it's all better? Hell no! You want to be on the side where you drink some shit and 1 second later *POOF* I don't know how, but that leg is re-attached and you are at full health! Boom!

Also that wizard that was hit in the head by 47 bullets 3 days ago? An invisible wizard walks up to him and boom! He's alive!

 

[MerchantKing]

I think your biggest problem is that you're overrating the intelligence of the Cumbrain royality and their subjects. Also, the Gnomes clearly did not support them and being the strongest wizards mean that they were not able to field strong enough Wizards to effectively combat the genius inventions of Gilbert Bates.