Arcanum setting makes no sense

[Harthwain]

If the lore says "this product is rare, extremely difficuly to produce and you wont find in the entire region"

And then you proceed to find in literally any part of the map in abundant quantity, it pretty much makes the text irrelevant

Gameplay operating differently from the lore is not uncommon and doesn't serve as an argument when the lore is involved. Text takes precedence, unless the source itself (an NPC, the Narrator, etc.) is unreliable knowledge source. Obviously the player has to have access to fatigue-restoring objects in great quantity when fatigue is one of the cornerstones of combat. Otherwise combat would be a chore (more than it already is). Hence the ludonarrative dissonance.

 

[Ryan muller]

If the lore says "this product is rare, extremely difficuly to produce and you wont find in the entire region"

And then you proceed to find in literally any part of the map in abundant quantity, it pretty much makes the text irrelevant

Gameplay operating differently from the lore is not uncommon and doesn't serve as an argument when the lore is involved. Text takes precedence, unless the source itself (an NPC, the Narrator, etc.) is unreliable knowledge source. Obviously the player has to have access to fatigue-restoring objects in great quantity when fatigue is one of the cornerstones of combat. Otherwise combat would be a chore (more than it already is). Hence the ludonarrative dissonance.

you are right about it not being uncommon, you are wrong about being something that doesnt matter, if i have to ignore the bits of story that the game is telling me throught my practical experience, the story doesnt matter and it failed as storytelling throught interactive means.
At the point its a game, gameplay become a means of storytelling

The game itself does aknowledge that by trying to implement much of the mechanics mentioned in the writing into gameplay such as magick not working if you have high technical aptitude.

The player might ignore some of the flaws that the simulation has compared to the storytelling, but only so much can be believable when the game contradicts whats being told so strongly.
hence why ludonarrative dissonance is considered a flaw.

 

[Hellraiser]

The worst part of Arcanum setting is that it pushes for technology too much. You're never handed the option to go full magic supported despite both being presented as equal options. The game always pushes for the adoption of technology or at best some wholesome centrist position, which is pretty meh.

I disagree on this in the context of the setting as that is consistent with the later game reveal that magic or technology dominating over the other is historically cyclical thing, with the current point in the cycle being what it is with magic on the decline. Both are options, but one faces an uphill battle due to the current point being what it is. This is actually quite clever from Troika's side, as it is a natural narrative consequence of the world being built around the two phenomena being metaphysical opposites to have one side dominant, so making it cyclical is a decent explanation on how come one side didn't just win early in the backstory and the other got completely lost and forgotten.

The gameplay as such not giving more options for luddite PCs to Make Magic Great Again is a seperate thing from the setting and with there being too few options for luddites/magic fanatics I can agree. But that could have another problem I think people would complain about if "balance/equal opportunity" are desired, regarding how such a path could be designed around a diplomatic character without throwing out believability outside of the window or making it an outright evil path.

Convincing all industrial tycoons to just stop making money with their fancy machines, causing a wide scale societal and civilizational shift reversing global trends by going town to town as some motivational speaker demigod would be just silly and kill all suspension of disbelief.

The PC realistically could only be left either with brute force or more subtle manipulation to de-industrialize the world, organizing a luddite/magical uprising reminiscent of Dune's butlerian jihad, engaging in sabotage or other criminal acts, that would easily earn such a path the label of being "evil" (although I do have to say that as such that would ge a great vehicle for exploring revolution-related themes such as the cure being worse than the disease etc.). And in this case you would still have the problem of pushing for wholesome centrism carebear kumbaya choices if not "technology good".

The game setting or time period would need to be extensively reworked for it to have both forces be morally neutral choices.

 

[Cryomancer]

At the end of WW2, Germany had the best tanks of the war. Yet they still lost because both the Americans and the Soviets could out-produce Germany and push way more men and material onto the battlefield than we could ever hope to. In war, production capacity and your ability to get the required resources to the front matters more than the combat capability of any individual unit.

Well said. as Stalin said : Quantity has a quality all its own.

Even if the individual mage is much more powerful than the individual sharpshooter, raising an army of sharpshooters and training them is easier than raising an small squad of high level mages. In WW2 Me 262 was virtually untouchable by western fighters yet Germany lost the battle for air superiority and had its cities bombed to the ground by the sheer number of enemies. And most Me 262 loses was while landing/taking off.

Can't wizards just create a spell that magnetically repels bullets in a force field-like aura? I don't get it. That can't be much harder than raising the dead or conjuring entire creatures from nothing.

Yes, they can, telekinesis in WH40K - Dark Heresy can do it. BUT they can't maintain such force field forever. If such spell existed in arcanum, Wizards would be able to use it to protect it for a couple of minutes but such force field could also be destroyed by sheer volume of projectiles.

In GURPS Technomancer, the best way to deal with a marksman trying to kill you is to create thick fogs and dig trenches, no need to concentrate in their spells.

You can tell a lot about a person by their top 10 rpgs. Arcanum is one of the 3 best rpg's ever.

YES!!!!

Arcanum is a game where you can use necromancy to talk to deceased NPCs and use their knowledge to solve many quests, has a amazing lore, amazing gameplay, great reactivity, insane amount of build variety, is a masterpiece.

 

[Harthwain]

you are right about it not being uncommon, you are wrong about being something that doesnt matter, if i have to ignore the bits of story that the game is telling me throught my practical experience, the story doesnt matter and it failed as storytelling throught interactive means.
At the point its a game, gameplay become a means of storytelling

It would be great to have gameplay as means of storytelling, but I think most of us know seldom that's true. Gameplay and storytelling more often than not are two separate layers, which is why the ludonarrative dissonance is so common in games. For example, just because Harm spell is so effective in game doesn't mean anything in terms of lore.

The game itself does aknowledge that by trying to implement much of the mechanics mentioned in the writing into gameplay such as magick not working if you have high technical aptitude.

It is possible to be a hybrid that uses both magic and technology. Consumables work fine (either magical or technological). Some spells work well even for tech-oriented characters. A grenades can work even for a mage. There is also a bunch of other stuff, but I think that's enough. So much for "implementing the mechanics mentioned in the writing into gameplay". At the end of the day a system is a system and trying to make it seem as something more than that is going to lead to disappointment. Which is precisely why you're here. And unless you learn how to suspend your disbelief you are going to have a really bad time playing games, because Arcanum is not that bad in terms of "making sense".

 

[Daemongar]

I think your biggest problem is that you're overrating the intelligence of the Cumbrain royality and their subjects. Also, the Gnomes clearly did not support them and being the strongest wizards mean that they were not able to field strong enough Wizards to effectively combat the genius inventions of Gilbert Bates.

Ah yes, the "Fatigue Potion Revolution", where wizards somehow managed to industrialize fatigue potions. That's going to be a headline in the Tarantian.

Now comes the logistical question again: can you produce fatigue potions in a factory, or do they have to be created by a magical artisan?

I think in the game, there were all kinds of "over the counter" fatigue restorers, most non-magical. Yes, you could mass produce fatigue relief, but maybe not potions.

I think folks are viewing Tech vs. Magic in the wrong light. They are reviewing Magic through the games logic and Tech through the real world logic. You need to view tech (guns) through the game logic. Most enemies used melee weapons, even though any slob can use a gun. Why is that? Because using guns also required training (apprentice, etc), skills (perception), and guns were pretty expensive, unless you could craft them - and even then you'd have to be an adventurer, find schematics and bullets, and have quite a few levels under your belt.

To turn it on its head, if two major armies clashed with one side obliterating the other because one side had guns - guns would be everywhere and cheap. But they weren't and armor and swords weren't cheap either. See, trained gun users were and are as rare as magic users in the game. Actually, even rarer. The only real gun toting crews you meet are the folks in Broken Hills robbing the bank. Magic doesn't cost anything - so BY IN GAME LOGIC - a peasant would be better off learning magic as it's free, than learning a gun which requires a gun, bullets, and the same amount of leveling up.

Formations used an effective mass of people to achieve total accuracy in wars. Something mages could not do and it's something that requires barely no training. If you're a peasant, you'd be probably extremely retarded and unable to read (depends on the quality of teaching on world of arcanum, which is probably low for peasants). Really, it comes down to the decision of "do I buy a gun or a shortsword with this pittance I've saved from farming". Adventurers are another sort, but i'd bet on the gun at any time.

I don't want a history lesson about the advent of firearms in the world we inhabit. I know about guns. Any idiot can own and shoot a gun - I know this for a fact as I have several!

Stop and look at how firearms are handled within the Arcanum universe itself. You need perception to be accurate. You need a minimum perception to be an apprentice. You need a firearm which is expensive compared to similarly damaging melee weapons and bows, and for the most part there is an equal amount of mages as there are folks using guns. In fact, if you play the game a few times, you'll see there are way more mages.

Technically, if firearms were the hard counter to mages in Arcanum as argued here, it stands to reason bows and arrows could have been employed in the same way much earlier to the same effect and the elves would be dominating society much earlier with a combination of bows and magic.

 

[JarlFrank]

Gameplay mechanics that exist to balance in-game items do not reflect the role of these items in the lore/history/society.

Magic in Arcanum is dying, and being replaced by technology. Guns are supposed to be as powerful as they were historically, industry is supposed to be much more efficient at mass production and increasing quality of life for the average normie than magic. That's what everything in the game tells you. The melancholic vibe of Tulla, whose glory days are long over, a last refuge for wizards who are slowly being replaced in the world. The wealth and status of Gilbert Bates, the industrialist who brought factories to Tarant - his mansion is literally the biggest building in the entire city. Industry is on the rise, and magic on the decline.

The fact that the numbers balancing of weapons doesn't make guns the most powerful option for players doesn't matter in that regard. As much as I love Arcanum, I'll readily admit that balance is not its strength. One of the best melee weapons you can get is the super fast filament sword which you can get very early, just because of how fast it attacks. Harm, similarly, is one of the most powerful spells despite being entry level, just because of how spammable it is. The balance is completely out of whack and doesn't reflect what things are supposed to be like at a wider societal scale.

 

[Cryomancer]

if firearms were the hard counter to mages in Arcanum as argued here, it stands to reason bows and arrows could have been employed in the same way much earlier

There is a huge difference between bows and firearms.

Training to be a good longbowman could take years. "considerable practice was required to produce the swift and effective combat shooting required. Skeletons of longbow archers are recognisably affected, with enlarged left arms and often osteophytes on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers." source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

The maximum range of a lonbow was 370 m, meanwhile a sharps rifle had a effective range 900m.

Not mentioning, some creatures like Ore Golems, IDK about you but if a Ore golem is charging into my direction, I rather have this :

Than any bow.

 

[Ryan muller]

if firearms were the hard counter to mages in Arcanum as argued here, it stands to reason bows and arrows could have been employed in the same way much earlier

There is a huge difference between bows and firearms.

Training to be a good longbowman could take years. "considerable practice was required to produce the swift and effective combat shooting required. Skeletons of longbow archers are recognisably affected, with enlarged left arms and often osteophytes on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers." source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

The maximum range of a lonbow was 370 m, meanwhile a sharps rifle had a effective range 900m.

Not mentioning, some creatures like Ore Golems, IDK about you but if a Ore golem is charging into my direction, I rather have this :

Than any bow.

Doesnt make much of a difference, your dog can chew on the iron golem before you can think about shooting.

 

[Ryan muller]

And unless you learn how to suspend your disbelief you are going to have a really bad time playing games, because Arcanum is not that bad in terms of "making sense".

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense. I used examples such as the existence of a reanimator device or spells that should completely break the setting

I dont see much of a reason to lower standards when other games achieve that rather ok. The example we used itself wasnt much of a thing. Jarl used the fatigue system as an example, but the game actually never state that potions are difficulty to mass produce.

 

[Ryan muller]

Gameplay mechanics that exist to balance in-game items do not reflect the role of these items in the lore/history/society.

Magic in Arcanum is dying, and being replaced by technology. Guns are supposed to be as powerful as they were historically, industry is supposed to be much more efficient at mass production and increasing quality of life for the average normie than magic. That's what everything in the game tells you. The melancholic vibe of Tulla, whose glory days are long over, a last refuge for wizards who are slowly being replaced in the world. The wealth and status of Gilbert Bates, the industrialist who brought factories to Tarant - his mansion is literally the biggest building in the entire city. Industry is on the rise, and magic on the decline.

The fact that the numbers balancing of weapons doesn't make guns the most powerful option for players doesn't matter in that regard. As much as I love Arcanum, I'll readily admit that balance is not its strength. One of the best melee weapons you can get is the super fast filament sword which you can get very early, just because of how fast it attacks. Harm, similarly, is one of the most powerful spells despite being entry level, just because of how spammable it is. The balance is completely out of whack and doesn't reflect what things are supposed to be like at a wider societal scale.

If i have to dettach what im seeing from what the game tries to tell me, frankly i just don't care.

But again, thats headcannon regardless, we dont even know how the potion making works and nobody ever stated they are rare to mass produce.

 

[JarlFrank]

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense.

No, mixing fantasy and sci-fi makes perfect sense.

 

[Harthwain]

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense. I used examples such as the existence of a reanimator device or spells that should completely break the setting

I dont see much of a reason to lower standards when other games achieve that rather ok.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with the setting itself as much as this being a game. In Dragon Age: Origins you can use forbidden blood magic in front of other people and they won't bat an eye, because the game doesn't recognize that as an action NPCs should react to. That's the price of having heavily scripted narrative existing next to separate gameplay mechanics, instead of using gameplay mechanics as baseline for reactive behaviour of the world.

 

[JarlFrank]

Arcanum, generally, does a better job at making the world react to your character's quirks than other RPGs.
The only issue with Arcanum's worldbuilding vs gameplay practice is that the numbers are badly balanced.

 

[Ryan muller]

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense. I used examples such as the existence of a reanimator device or spells that should completely break the setting

I dont see much of a reason to lower standards when other games achieve that rather ok.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with the setting itself as much as this being a game. In Dragon Age: Origins you can use forbidden blood magic in front of other people and they won't bat an eye, because the game doesn't recognize that as an action NPCs should react to. That's the price of having heavily scripted narrative existing next to separate gameplay mechanics, instead of using gameplay mechanics as baseline for reactive behaviour of the world.

This is actually something that people complain.

In fo1 after you save tandi, her boyfriend wont acknowledge that, making the situation weird, people recognize it and refer to said situation in reviews talking about the game specially from a modern perspective.

In Fallout 2 you can diagnose Cassidy's heart issues and give him a cure

If you give him a drug afterwards, he still dies. This is a case in which the storytelling is directly contradicted by gameplay

However, this also will make it clear that despite cassidy's believe he was never properly healed from his heart condition.

A player that ignores the implications of the simulation when it comes to storytelling throught interaction, ignores the essence of said simulation. You can have a large tolerance for issues with the simulation, however its not right to highly value the text while discrediting the gameplay.

 

[Ryan muller]

Arcanum, generally, does a better job at making the world react to your character's quirks than other RPGs.
The only issue with Arcanum's worldbuilding vs gameplay practice is that the numbers are badly balanced.

Not the case. Even if you try to ignore my examples with things like the reanimator and inconsistencies in the law of nature vs supernatural, even a bunch of fans of the game answered this thread with MUCH more examples of inconsistencies and nonsensical in-universe elements.

Maybe you just like the game too much and tend to ignore such flaws?

 

[NecroLord]

Arcanum, generally, does a better job at making the world react to your character's quirks than other RPGs.
The only issue with Arcanum's worldbuilding vs gameplay practice is that the numbers are badly balanced.

The combat is definitely not Arcanum's strong point.
Arcanum is known for its story and setting.
Also many player build possibilities.

 

[skaraher]

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense. I used examples such as the existence of a reanimator device or spells that should completely break the setting

I dont see much of a reason to lower standards when other games achieve that rather ok.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with the setting itself as much as this being a game. In Dragon Age: Origins you can use forbidden blood magic in front of other people and they won't bat an eye, because the game doesn't recognize that as an action NPCs should react to. That's the price of having heavily scripted narrative existing next to separate gameplay mechanics, instead of using gameplay mechanics as baseline for reactive behaviour of the world.

This is actually something that people complain.

In fo1 after you save tandi, her boyfriend wont acknowledge that, making the situation weird, people recognize it and refer to said situation in reviews talking about the game specially from a modern perspective.

In Fallout 2 you can diagnose Cassidy's heart issues and give him a cure

If you give him a drug afterwards, he still dies. This is a case in which the storytelling is directly contradicted by gameplay

However, this also will make it clear that despite cassidy's believe he was never properly healed from his heart condition.

A player that ignores the implications of the simulation when it comes to storytelling throught interaction, ignores the essence of said simulation. You can have a large tolerance for issues with the simulation, however its not right to highly value the text while discrediting the gameplay.

Cassidy heart pill is from a mod.

 

[Harthwain]

A player that ignores the implications of the simulation when it comes to syorytelling throught interaction, ignores the essence of said simulation. You can have a large tolerance for issues with the simulation, however its not right to highly value the text while discrediting the gameplay.

Let's make this clear: you're not talking about simulation here, because neither Fallout 1 nor Fallout 2 are simulations. In a real simulation the player can't ignore the results of the simulation, because they just happen and are a natural result of various interactions.

Not the case. Even if you try to ignore my examples with things like the reanimator and inconsistencies in the law of nature vs supernatural, even a bunch of fans of the game answered this thread with MUCH more examples of inconsistencies and nonsensical in-universe elements.

Maybe you just like the game too much and tend to ignore such flaws?

You don't even understand what he's saying. Play Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 as 1 INT character and then tell me which game better reacts to the player's attributes. My money is on Arcanum.

 

[NecroLord]

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense. I used examples such as the existence of a reanimator device or spells that should completely break the setting

I dont see much of a reason to lower standards when other games achieve that rather ok.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with the setting itself as much as this being a game. In Dragon Age: Origins you can use forbidden blood magic in front of other people and they won't bat an eye, because the game doesn't recognize that as an action NPCs should react to. That's the price of having heavily scripted narrative existing next to separate gameplay mechanics, instead of using gameplay mechanics as baseline for reactive behaviour of the world.

This is actually something that people complain.

In fo1 after you save tandi, her boyfriend wont acknowledge that, making the situation weird, people recognize it and refer to said situation in reviews talking about the game specially from a modern perspective.

In Fallout 2 you can diagnose Cassidy's heart issues and give him a cure

If you give him a drug afterwards, he still dies. This is a case in which the storytelling is directly contradicted by gameplay

However, this also will make it clear that despite cassidy's believe he was never properly healed from his heart condition.

A player that ignores the implications of the simulation when it comes to storytelling throught interaction, ignores the essence of said simulation. You can have a large tolerance for issues with the simulation, however its not right to highly value the text while discrediting the gameplay.

Cassidy heart pill is from a mod.

The Restoration Patch, to be more precise.
You can get those in EPA.
I am not sure what the effects are on Cassidy, I think it is basically nothing at all.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Why would technology and magic operate on different and and mutually interfering physics in the first place? That makes no sense to develop from first principles. If magic is a naturally occurring phenomenon, then it should not be any different from any other naturally occurring phenomenon and be inseparably tied into how all physical processes function, like childbirth, blood circulation, and blacksmithing. It should be the power source for technology as well as an effect created by technology.

What I think would've made more sense is if there were different kinds of "magic" and some of them didn't play well together. For example, instead of real physics, the steampunk technology is powered by "ether" or some such. The most common form of spellcasting generates interference that messes with ether tech, without negatively affecting, say, living creatures. So it can derail trains, but not give you spontaneous aneurysms because your circulation doesn't rely on ether. Instead of saltpeter, sulfur and charcoal, gunpowder is made out of naturally occurring ingredients that rely on a non-combustion process that magic interferes with. So in certain areas of high ambient magic radiation, guns using that powder cannot fire because the powder doesn't explode.

Essentially, you'd need to invent new types of particles/elements to explain how magic and tech interfere with each other but not other naturally occurring processes like the weather, plant growth, or blood circulation.

 

[skaraher]

Every setting that usually mixes fantasy woth sci fi in any way (or steampunk in this regard) is usually >>that bad<< in making sense. I used examples such as the existence of a reanimator device or spells that should completely break the setting

I dont see much of a reason to lower standards when other games achieve that rather ok.

Again, this doesn't have much to do with the setting itself as much as this being a game. In Dragon Age: Origins you can use forbidden blood magic in front of other people and they won't bat an eye, because the game doesn't recognize that as an action NPCs should react to. That's the price of having heavily scripted narrative existing next to separate gameplay mechanics, instead of using gameplay mechanics as baseline for reactive behaviour of the world.

This is actually something that people complain.

In fo1 after you save tandi, her boyfriend wont acknowledge that, making the situation weird, people recognize it and refer to said situation in reviews talking about the game specially from a modern perspective.

In Fallout 2 you can diagnose Cassidy's heart issues and give him a cure

If you give him a drug afterwards, he still dies. This is a case in which the storytelling is directly contradicted by gameplay

However, this also will make it clear that despite cassidy's believe he was never properly healed from his heart condition.

A player that ignores the implications of the simulation when it comes to storytelling throught interaction, ignores the essence of said simulation. You can have a large tolerance for issues with the simulation, however its not right to highly value the text while discrediting the gameplay.

Cassidy heart pill is from a mod.

The Restoration Patch, to be more precise.
You can get those in EPA.
I am not sure what the effects are on Cassidy, I think it is basically nothing at all.

Restoration Patch sucks balls.

 

[NecroLord]

Why would technology and magic operate on different and and mutually interfering physics in the first place? That makes no sense to develop from first principles. If magic is a naturally occurring phenomenon, then it should not be any different from any other naturally occurring phenomenon and be inseparably tied into how all physical processes function, like childbirth, blood circulation, and blacksmithing. It should be the power source for technology as well as an effect created by technology.

What I think would've made more sense is if there were different kinds of "magic" and some of them didn't play well together. For example, instead of real physics, the steampunk technology is powered by "ether" or some such. The most common form of spellcasting generates interference that messes with ether tech, without negatively affecting, say, living creatures. So it can derail trains, but not give you spontaneous aneurysms because your circulation doesn't rely on ether. Instead of saltpeter, sulfur and charcoal, gunpowder is made out of naturally occurring ingredients that rely on a non-combustion process that magic interferes with. So in certain areas of high ambient magic radiation, guns using that powder cannot fire because the powder doesn't explode.

Essentially, you'd need to invent new types of particles/elements to explain how magic and tech interfere with each other but not other naturally occurring processes like the weather, plant growth, or blood circulation.

Magick is tied to Will.
When you cast a spell, you basically bend the laws of physics through your Will.
Technology reinforces the laws of physics and operates within their boundaries.

 

[Daemongar]

if firearms were the hard counter to mages in Arcanum as argued here, it stands to reason bows and arrows could have been employed in the same way much earlier

There is a huge difference between bows and firearms.

Training to be a good longbowman could take years. "considerable practice was required to produce the swift and effective combat shooting required. Skeletons of longbow archers are recognisably affected, with enlarged left arms and often osteophytes on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers." source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

The maximum range of a lonbow was 370 m, meanwhile a sharps rifle had a effective range 900m.

Not mentioning, some creatures like Ore Golems, IDK about you but if a Ore golem is charging into my direction, I rather have this :

Than any bow.

I'm calling bullshit on this "guns are better than bows" story. When get a little chance, read up on the battle of Caudine Forks - it was a Roman battle in the Satellite wars. Not only was not a single person killed by the OH SO POWERFUL gun, but they were killing way more dudes with slings!!!

 

[Ryan muller]

Let's make this clear: you're not talking about simulation here, because neither Fallout 1 nor Fallout 2 are simulations. In a real simulation the player can't ignore the results of the simulation, because they just happen and are a natural result of various interactions.

The game is trying to mirror a world and throught story, writing and art, convey the sensation of being in one in order to invoke immersion, as such, its a simulation. Of which kind doesnt matter.

You don't even understand what he's saying. Play Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 as 1 INT character and then tell me which game better reacts to the player's attributes. My money is on Arcanum.

I do understand what hes saying, i directly refered to the fact that the gameplay contradicting the lore isnt something avoided aside from sheer numbers. Take Saint proverbius's example.

Regardless of how little logic it would make to craft Magical gear if taking the technology vs magick lore to the table, blacksmiths are still producing them and selling those gear in different stores. The more the thread went throught, more examples were described.