Arcanum setting makes no sense

[skaraher]

But is the banana bread good ?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

That stuff is also in the manual and general lore of the game.

You mean the same manual that says magic disrupts the friction on simple blocks and inclines? The manual directly contradicts your headcanon.

Can we have discussions about canon without people pulling headcanon out of their asses?

 

[NecroLord]

That stuff is also in the manual and general lore of the game.

You mean the same manual that says magic disrupts the friction on simple blocks and inclines?

The manual directly contradicts your headcanon.

Jesus fucking Christ, can we have discussions about canon without people pulling headcanon out of their asses?

Do you have anything of value to add, smartass?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Do you have anything of value to add, smartass?

Did you remember that “tech” does physically impossible stuff like instant healing, rings of superspeed, resurrecting the dead, and raising zombies? Explain to me how any of that is more natural law than literal magic. It looks to me like another kind of magic that dresses itself in technobabble.

 

[NecroLord]

Do you have anything of value to add, smartass?

Did you remember that “tech” does physically impossible stuff like instant healing, rings of superspeed, resurrecting the dead, and raising zombies? Explain to me how any of that is more natural law than literal magic. It looks to me like another kind of magic that dresses itself in technobabble.

All are done technologically through combining various items in order to achieve those effects, not through the use of Will to break the laws of physics.
You could argue those are some of the more extreme examples of technological application.

 

[Damned Registrations]

If your will is subconsciously fucking up physics around you, why doesn't it stop your lungs from working randomly? Or your eyeballs. Or nerves.

 

[MjKorz]

You mean the same manual that says magic disrupts the friction on simple blocks and inclines?

Magic can disrupt the interatomic/intermolecular bonds, outright disintegrating an object. If it's capable of such a powerful effect, it's not unbelievable within the confines of the setting that magic can disrupt the gravitational forces acting on an object, making it lighter or heavier, thus changing the friction coefficient by changing the normal force acting on the surface.

 

[skaraher]

What can change the nature of a steam engine ?

The belief that he can.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

If your will is subconsciously fucking up physics around you, why doesn't it stop your lungs from working randomly? Or your eyeballs. Or nerves.

Or rocks, or rivers, or trees, etc. If magic disrupts basic physics, such blocks, inclines, swords, chemical reactions, etc., then why doesn't this negatively affect people and the surrounding environment? Why is it not affecting the naturally occurring objects and slopes everywhere? Is it not affecting primitive technology like beehives, beaver dams, etc.? This is where the inconsistency comes from.

If tech was a competing form of "magic", instead of the natural law vs supernatural law explanation, then this would be a lot easier to reconcile.

You mean the same manual that says magic disrupts the friction on simple blocks and inclines?

Magic can disrupt the interatomic/intermolecular bonds, outright disintegrating an object. If it's capable of such a powerful effect, it's not unbelievable within the confines of the setting that magic can disrupt the gravitational forces acting on an object, making it lighter or heavier, thus changing the friction coefficient by changing the normal force acting on the surface.

The inconsistency here is that it should be affecting everything equally, such as people. But it's not.

Tech = the ability to apply laws of nature in a practical way. Magic = the ability to bend laws of nature to your will. Tech stops working in the presence of individuals with high magical aptitude, because these individuals distort the laws of physics passively and subconsciously by their mere presence. Magic is based on willpower, i.e. you have to will it into existence. Magic fizzles out in the presence of individuals with high technological aptitude, because they know how the laws of nature should operate and subconsciously reinforce the correct operation of said laws through their will. That's how I headcanon the setting.

Thanks for acknowledging that it's headcanon. It's hard enough to discuss this without all the misinformation floating around.

So, basically, you're saying that your explanation is that tech is another kind of magic and the two types of magic hate each other?

 

[NecroLord]

What can change the nature of a steam engine ?

If Chris Avellone was the lead designer of Arcanum.

 

[dumbuglyorc]

But is the banana bread good ?

 

[Cryomancer]

If your will is subconsciously fucking up physics around you, why doesn't it stop your lungs from working randomly? Or your eyeballs. Or nerves.

Artificial stuff. Not natural stuff.

Think in technology being dependent on the "plane of law" to work and magic from "plane of chaos" to work.

 

[True Ukrainian]

I never understood how people powered throught it as tech chars,

Grenades even Molotovs will tear through anything in the mines. And you can craft Molotovs at level 1 with 1 level in explosives.

 

[jackofshadows]

Moreover, some tech stuff like the googles allows you to break the game's economy so you can stack up any gear you could buy before setting off, consumables included ofc. I did that last time doing a gimmick run so I cleared the majority of Vendigroth on 10 lvl or so.

 

[MrBuzzKill]

What is magic anyway? and supernatural? By definition, if something exists, it is not "super" natural, it's part of the existing framework of things.
When a "wizard" casts a "spell", they do so according to some set of laws which behave in a predictable way. Sure, the exact workings of it might at some point be shrouded in mystery, much like being a pre-20th century physicist or chemist. But if it's predictable (and it must be, otherwise "learning magic" doesn't make any sense), then it's only a matter of time before you discover everything there is to know about "magic" at which point it just becomes a subset of science.

TL;DR "magic" either doesn't actually work, or, if it works, is just science with some puzzle pieces missing and there's really nothing you can argue against that

 

[Damned Registrations]

What is magic anyway? and supernatural? By definition, if something exists, it is not "super" natural, it's part of the existing framework of things.
When a "wizard" casts a "spell", they do so according to some set of laws which behave in a predictable way. Sure, the exact workings of it might at some point be shrouded in mystery, much like being a pre-20th century physicist or chemist. But if it's predictable (and it must be, otherwise "learning magic" doesn't make any sense), then it's only a matter of time before you discover everything there is to know about "magic" at which point it just becomes a subset of science.

TL;DR "magic" either doesn't actually work, or, if it works, is just science with some puzzle pieces missing and there's really nothing you can argue against that

This is why I generally prefer divine magic as a concept in fantasy settings. Because asking your god to turn your enemies into ashes is outside the realm of predictable science, even if it's always gonna happen from a gameplay perspective. Works better narratively as well because invoking the wrath of god is inherently a payoff for everything that character did to gain the boon of that god. Wizard magic tends to feel cheap and arbitrary unless it involves a big ritual, expended components, or some sort of life force being sacrificed from the caster. Like, conjuring a wall of flame is cool, but conjuring 12 walls of flame to kill a goblin because you kept missing is pretty lame.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Think in technology being dependent on the "plane of law" to work and magic from "plane of chaos" to work.

Arcanum doesn’t have planes powering these effects, and magic isn’t chaotic.

TL;DR "magic" either doesn't actually work, or, if it works, is just science with some puzzle pieces missing and there's really nothing you can argue against that

Totally. One of my favorite ttrpg settings is this obscure French game where magic is called “occult science” and has this whole cosmology where the entire physical planet is the result of “magic fields” based on five elements colliding and sustaining natural processes. Even technology is actually the result of magic, with the process of combustion itself being powered by the magic field of fire and electricity being powered by the field of air. There’s an antimagic metal from space that makes even mundane folk sick if exposed to it.

D&D’s “weave”, that can be turned off and on without consequences, feels arbitrary and poorly designed by comparison.

 

[skaraher]

Think in technology being dependent on the "plane of law" to work and magic from "plane of chaos" to work.

Arcanum doesn’t have planes powering these effects, and magic isn’t chaotic.

TL;DR "magic" either doesn't actually work, or, if it works, is just science with some puzzle pieces missing and there's really nothing you can argue against that

Totally. One of my favorite ttrpg settings is this obscure French game where magic is called “occult science” and has this whole cosmology where the entire physical planet is the result of “magic fields” based on five elements colliding and sustaining natural processes. Even technology is actually the result of magic, with the process of combustion itself being powered by the magic field of fire and electricity being powered by the field of air. There’s an antimagic metal from space that makes even mundane folk sick if exposed to it.

D&D’s “weave”, that can be turned off and on without consequences, feels arbitrary and poorly designed by comparison.

What's the setting name ?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

What's the setting name ?

Nephilim.

 

[skaraher]

What's the setting name ?

Nephilim.

Hah ! I know that, even played it a bit. My father and his buddies from his gen are huge fans.

For the non-Frog = basically French WOD/Exalted with less emo and more intellectualism (and french pretentiousness). A good game, creative magic system.

 

[Ryan muller]

I never understood how people powered throught it as tech chars,

Grenades even Molotovs will tear through anything in the mines. And you can craft Molotovs at level 1 with 1 level in explosives.

Molotovs seem to barely deal damage to the golems

 

[True Ukrainian]

Molotovs seem to barely deal damage to the golems

Just spam them. Molotovs are really cheap to make.