Why D&D 2e is the BEST edition ever.

[Mortmal]

The HP bloat in 3.x and beyond is not at low levels. It is at mid-high levels.
.

There no hp blo.. Oh fuck it.

 

[Cael]

The HP bloat in 3.x and beyond is not at low levels. It is at mid-high levels.
.

There no hp blo.. Oh fuck it.

Compare a 2E Dragon with a 3.x Dragon. A 3.x Adult Red Dragon has over 250 hp on average. A 2E equivalent has about 80.

You can deny it all you want, but the infinite rolling for HP of 3.0 meant there is HP bloat. Deal with it.

 

[Mortmal]

The HP bloat in 3.x and beyond is not at low levels. It is at mid-high levels.
.

There no hp blo.. Oh fuck it.

Compare a 2E Dragon with a 3.x Dragon. A 3.x Adult Red Dragon has over 250 hp on average. A 2E equivalent has about 80.

You can deny it all you want, but the infinite rolling for HP of 3.0 meant there is HP bloat. Deal with it.

I explained it to viktor in depth before, the damage output from pc is increased as much . If anything its not enough HP , the party can down a dragon in one round if they know what they are doing. Trust the old rusty Dm, i played everything and still do 5E bi weekly now.

 

[Cael]

The HP bloat in 3.x and beyond is not at low levels. It is at mid-high levels.
.

There no hp blo.. Oh fuck it.

Compare a 2E Dragon with a 3.x Dragon. A 3.x Adult Red Dragon has over 250 hp on average. A 2E equivalent has about 80.

You can deny it all you want, but the infinite rolling for HP of 3.0 meant there is HP bloat. Deal with it.

I explained it to viktor in depth before, the damage output from pc is increased as much . If anything its not enough HP , the party can down a dragon in one round if they know what they are doing. Trust the old rusty Dm, i played everything and still do 5E bi weekly now.

When you are talking about casters, their damage has NOT increased. The same level caps are still there. Fireball, for example, is still capped at 10d6 in both editions. That is why the blaster caster fell out of vogue in 3.x whereas in 2E, the blaster caster was feared as much as any other, if not more.

The fact you play a woketards of the cunts edition after 3.5 is no recommendation as to your competence or knowledge.

 

[Mortmal]

The HP bloat in 3.x and beyond is not at low levels. It is at mid-high levels.
.

There no hp blo.. Oh fuck it.

Compare a 2E Dragon with a 3.x Dragon. A 3.x Adult Red Dragon has over 250 hp on average. A 2E equivalent has about 80.

You can deny it all you want, but the infinite rolling for HP of 3.0 meant there is HP bloat. Deal with it.

I explained it to viktor in depth before, the damage output from pc is increased as much . If anything its not enough HP , the party can down a dragon in one round if they know what they are doing. Trust the old rusty Dm, i played everything and still do 5E bi weekly now.

When you are talking about casters, their damage has NOT increased. The same level caps are still there. Fireball, for example, is still capped at 10d6 in both editions. That is why the blaster caster fell out of vogue in 3.x whereas in 2E, the blaster caster was feared as much as any other, if not more.

The fact you play a woketards of the cunts edition after 3.5 is no recommendation as to your competence or knowledge.

I play everything , my rpg knowledge is unmatched, started in 80's on BECMI. Casters are expanded in later editions, in 5E you will spec a warlock or/and sorcerer fordamage. Wizards are shining as control roles . I am not for forcing political agenda in games , but the rulesest by itself does not have so many flaws.

 

[Cael]

The HP bloat in 3.x and beyond is not at low levels. It is at mid-high levels.
.

There no hp blo.. Oh fuck it.

Compare a 2E Dragon with a 3.x Dragon. A 3.x Adult Red Dragon has over 250 hp on average. A 2E equivalent has about 80.

You can deny it all you want, but the infinite rolling for HP of 3.0 meant there is HP bloat. Deal with it.

I explained it to viktor in depth before, the damage output from pc is increased as much . If anything its not enough HP , the party can down a dragon in one round if they know what they are doing. Trust the old rusty Dm, i played everything and still do 5E bi weekly now.

When you are talking about casters, their damage has NOT increased. The same level caps are still there. Fireball, for example, is still capped at 10d6 in both editions. That is why the blaster caster fell out of vogue in 3.x whereas in 2E, the blaster caster was feared as much as any other, if not more.

The fact you play a woketards of the cunts edition after 3.5 is no recommendation as to your competence or knowledge.

I play everything , my rpg knowledge is unmatched, started in 80's on BECMI. Casters are expanded in later editions, in 5E you will spec a warlock or/and sorcerer fordamage. Wizards are shining as control roles . I am not for forcing political agenda in games , but the rulesest by itself does not have so many flaws.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. Your refusal to acknowledge a simple and readily proven fact disproves your claim comprehensively.

 

[Mortmal]

The HP bloat in 3.x and beyond is not at low levels. It is at mid-high levels.
.

There no hp blo.. Oh fuck it.

Compare a 2E Dragon with a 3.x Dragon. A 3.x Adult Red Dragon has over 250 hp on average. A 2E equivalent has about 80.

You can deny it all you want, but the infinite rolling for HP of 3.0 meant there is HP bloat. Deal with it.

I explained it to viktor in depth before, the damage output from pc is increased as much . If anything its not enough HP , the party can down a dragon in one round if they know what they are doing. Trust the old rusty Dm, i played everything and still do 5E bi weekly now.

When you are talking about casters, their damage has NOT increased. The same level caps are still there. Fireball, for example, is still capped at 10d6 in both editions. That is why the blaster caster fell out of vogue in 3.x whereas in 2E, the blaster caster was feared as much as any other, if not more.

The fact you play a woketards of the cunts edition after 3.5 is no recommendation as to your competence or knowledge.

I play everything , my rpg knowledge is unmatched, started in 80's on BECMI. Casters are expanded in later editions, in 5E you will spec a warlock or/and sorcerer fordamage. Wizards are shining as control roles . I am not for forcing political agenda in games , but the rulesest by itself does not have so many flaws.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. Your refusal to acknowledge a simple and readily proven fact disproves your claim comprehensively.

There's nothing to acknowledge, the original d&d roles are fighters , rogue, cleric , wizard. Decades later they have been divided in so many sub classes and they dont even fill the same role anymore. Fighter can be paladin , paladin can be oath of conquest, hes now a controller and not just a tank. Wizard , sorcerers , warlocks, now artificers too , so many subclasses , you just cant compare with ancient edition wizards. Those are more well rounded, have unlimited cantrips, rituals .
Druid used to be the top levels of cleric in becmi, now its a class by itself divided in shapeshifters , healers, etc...

 

[Cael]

And so he goes off on an unrelated tangent in order to avoid admitting that his claim was retarded in the first place.

 

[Cryomancer]

2E, the blaster caster was feared as much as any other, if not more.

5E in high levels is very low lethality? Yes. However I don't know anyone who plays high level on 5E, so that a big problem. I believe that some polls reached the conclusion that less than 5% of 5E players even played above lv 10. So the hp bloat on lv 14+ is not that a big problem(not negating that exists).

The unique relative popular high level adventure for 5E is rise of Tiamat. Descend into Arvenus, which has the party literally going to hell ends on lv 13. I doubt that when "the domains of dread" is launched for 5E, they will maintain the original power of the Dark Lords. Meredoth for eg, would probably be a lv 14 necromancer instead of a lv 20. Strahd on 2E could easily kill a upper mid level party in a single round(his lv is 16) and he had tons of defensive abilities. High level enemy casters on 5E aren't treating. And necromancy in the realms of dread is even more terrifying.

so many subclasses , you just cant compare with ancient edition wizards.

2E did "subclasses" differently.

You have "kits" that often come with drawbacks. For example, Warlocks? Warlocks first come as a Witch kit on the Complete Wizard handbook - page 65. They are wizards which learn their magic from a outsider patron instead of a academy. The kits which appears on the book.

 

[Cael]

2E, the blaster caster was feared as much as any other, if not more.

5E in high levels is very low lethality? Yes. However I don't know anyone who plays high level on 5E, so that a big problem. I believe that some polls reached the conclusion that less than 5% of 5E players even played above lv 10. So the hp bloat on lv 14+ is not that a big problem(not negating that exists).

The unique relative popular high level adventure for 5E is rise of Tiamat. Descend into Arvenus, which has the party literally going to hell ends on lv 13. I doubt that when "the domains of dread" is launched for 5E, they will maintain the original power of the Dark Lords. Meredoth for eg, would probably be a lv 14 necromancer instead of a lv 20. Strahd on 2E could easily kill a upper mid level party in a single round(his lv is 16) and he had tons of defensive abilities. High level enemy casters on 5E aren't treating. And necromancy in the realms of dread is even more terrifying.

so many subclasses , you just cant compare with ancient edition wizards.

2E did "subclasses" differently.

You have "kits" that often come with drawbacks. For example, Warlocks? Warlocks first come as a Witch kit on the Complete Wizard handbook - page 65. They are wizards which learn their magic from a outsider patron instead of a academy. The kits which appears on the book.

That is just for NPCs and PC with class levels. The HP bloat is even more psycho with non-classed creatures (like the aforementioned dragon), and they manifest at a far lower level.

 

[Mortmal]

2E, the blaster caster was feared as much as any other, if not more.

5E in high levels is very low lethality? Yes. However I don't know anyone who plays high level on 5E, so that a big problem. I believe that some polls reached the conclusion that less than 5% of 5E players even played above lv 10. So the hp bloat on lv 14+ is not that a big problem(not negating that exists).

The unique relative popular high level adventure for 5E is rise of Tiamat. Descend into Arvenus, which has the party literally going to hell ends on lv 13. I doubt that when "the domains of dread" is launched for 5E, they will maintain the original power of the Dark Lords. Meredoth for eg, would probably be a lv 14 necromancer instead of a lv 20. Strahd on 2E could easily kill a upper mid level party in a single round(his lv is 16) and he had tons of defensive abilities. High level enemy casters on 5E aren't treating. And necromancy in the realms of dread is even more terrifying.

so many subclasses , you just cant compare with ancient edition wizards.

2E did "subclasses" differently.

You have "kits" that often come with drawbacks. For example, Warlocks? Warlocks first come as a Witch kit on the Complete Wizard handbook - page 65. They are wizards which learn their magic from a outsider patron instead of a academy. The kits which appears on the book.

The HP bloat

 

[Cael]

2E, the blaster caster was feared as much as any other, if not more.

5E in high levels is very low lethality? Yes. However I don't know anyone who plays high level on 5E, so that a big problem. I believe that some polls reached the conclusion that less than 5% of 5E players even played above lv 10. So the hp bloat on lv 14+ is not that a big problem(not negating that exists).

The unique relative popular high level adventure for 5E is rise of Tiamat. Descend into Arvenus, which has the party literally going to hell ends on lv 13. I doubt that when "the domains of dread" is launched for 5E, they will maintain the original power of the Dark Lords. Meredoth for eg, would probably be a lv 14 necromancer instead of a lv 20. Strahd on 2E could easily kill a upper mid level party in a single round(his lv is 16) and he had tons of defensive abilities. High level enemy casters on 5E aren't treating. And necromancy in the realms of dread is even more terrifying.

so many subclasses , you just cant compare with ancient edition wizards.

2E did "subclasses" differently.

You have "kits" that often come with drawbacks. For example, Warlocks? Warlocks first come as a Witch kit on the Complete Wizard handbook - page 65. They are wizards which learn their magic from a outsider patron instead of a academy. The kits which appears on the book.

The HP bloat

You keep telling yourself that HPs are not higher. For you, 56 is less than 29 because you don't feel that the opposite should be true. Your feels trumps basic math.

 

[Nortar]

You keep telling yourself that HPs are not higher. For you, 56 is less than 29 because you don't feel that the opposite should be true. Your feels trumps basic math.

AD&D 2E Rogue backstab multiplier:
Level 10 - x4
Level 20 - x5


5E Rogue sneak attack
Level 10 - 5d6
Level 20 - 10d6

Does HP bloat correlate with damage increase? Yes/No/Epicz?

 

[Cael]

You keep telling yourself that HPs are not higher. For you, 56 is less than 29 because you don't feel that the opposite should be true. Your feels trumps basic math.

AD&D 2E Rogue backstab multiplier:
Level 10 - x4
Level 20 - x5


5E Rogue sneak attack
Level 10 - 5d6
Level 20 - 10d6

Does HP bloat correlate with damage increase? Yes/No/Epicz?

A 2E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword backstabbing for 4x damage would do on average (4.5+3+2)x4 = 38 average damage.

A 3E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword will backstab for 4.5+3+4+5x3.5 = 29 average damage.

Which edition had the higher HP again?

 

[Mortmal]

Higher hp is not the same as bloat, bloat is like jeff vogel avernum's end game with even filler fights taking ages . In 5e synergies and dynamic are such everything is done in a few rounds. Cael join real sessions, you are damaging yourself sperging but never playing anything.

 

[Cael]

Higher hp is not the same as bloat, bloat is like jeff vogel avernum's end game with even filler fights taking ages . In 5e synergies and dynamic are such everything is done in a few rounds. Cael join real sessions, you are damaging yourself sperging but never playing anything.

Yes, redefine the word bloat because it doesn't agree with your feels. Accuse others of not playing the game because they don't agree with your millennial shit. You and your dangerhaired ilk is the reason why DnD went down the gurgler.

 

[Nortar]

You keep telling yourself that HPs are not higher. For you, 56 is less than 29 because you don't feel that the opposite should be true. Your feels trumps basic math.

AD&D 2E Rogue backstab multiplier:
Level 10 - x4
Level 20 - x5


5E Rogue sneak attack
Level 10 - 5d6
Level 20 - 10d6

Does HP bloat correlate with damage increase? Yes/No/Epicz?

A 2E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword backstabbing for 4x damage would do on average (4.5+3+2)x4 = 38 average damage.

A 3E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword will backstab for 4.5+3+4+5x3.5 = 29 average damage.

Which edition had the higher HP again?

We were talking about 5E.
But anyway, I seriously doubt that you don't know how make a lvl 10 rogue in 3E (or 5E) to deal way more damage even without extreme munchkinism minmaxing.

 

[Cael]

You keep telling yourself that HPs are not higher. For you, 56 is less than 29 because you don't feel that the opposite should be true. Your feels trumps basic math.

AD&D 2E Rogue backstab multiplier:
Level 10 - x4
Level 20 - x5


5E Rogue sneak attack
Level 10 - 5d6
Level 20 - 10d6

Does HP bloat correlate with damage increase? Yes/No/Epicz?

A 2E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword backstabbing for 4x damage would do on average (4.5+3+2)x4 = 38 average damage.

A 3E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword will backstab for 4.5+3+4+5x3.5 = 29 average damage.

Which edition had the higher HP again?

We were talking about 5E.
But anyway, I seriously doubt that you don't know how make a lvl 10 rogue in 3E (or 5E) to deal way more damage even without extreme munchkinism minmaxing.

And the handwaving starts.

 

[Nortar]

You keep telling yourself that HPs are not higher. For you, 56 is less than 29 because you don't feel that the opposite should be true. Your feels trumps basic math.

AD&D 2E Rogue backstab multiplier:
Level 10 - x4
Level 20 - x5


5E Rogue sneak attack
Level 10 - 5d6
Level 20 - 10d6

Does HP bloat correlate with damage increase? Yes/No/Epicz?

A 2E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword backstabbing for 4x damage would do on average (4.5+3+2)x4 = 38 average damage.

A 3E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword will backstab for 4.5+3+4+5x3.5 = 29 average damage.

Which edition had the higher HP again?

We were talking about 5E.
But anyway, I seriously doubt that you don't know how make a lvl 10 rogue in 3E (or 5E) to deal way more damage even without extreme munchkinism minmaxing.

And the handwaving starts.

You provided numbers in favor of your POV by disregarding particularities of the corresponding rulesets,
ignored differences between level 10 in 2E and 3E,
ignored availability and ease of access to magic items and
now you talk about handwaving.

As the saying goes, a guilty mind betrays itself.

 

[Cael]

You keep telling yourself that HPs are not higher. For you, 56 is less than 29 because you don't feel that the opposite should be true. Your feels trumps basic math.

AD&D 2E Rogue backstab multiplier:
Level 10 - x4
Level 20 - x5


5E Rogue sneak attack
Level 10 - 5d6
Level 20 - 10d6

Does HP bloat correlate with damage increase? Yes/No/Epicz?

A 2E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword backstabbing for 4x damage would do on average (4.5+3+2)x4 = 38 average damage.

A 3E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword will backstab for 4.5+3+4+5x3.5 = 29 average damage.

Which edition had the higher HP again?

We were talking about 5E.
But anyway, I seriously doubt that you don't know how make a lvl 10 rogue in 3E (or 5E) to deal way more damage even without extreme munchkinism minmaxing.

And the handwaving starts.

You provided numbers in favor of your POV by disregarding particularities of the corresponding rulesets,
ignored differences between level 10 in 2E and 3E,
ignored availability and ease of access to magic items and
now you talk about handwaving.

As the saying goes, a guilty mind betrays itself.

Bwahahahahaha! You were the one who gave me the criteria.


That aside, the availability of magic items is up to the individual DM.

If we look at the Gold Box games, by level 10 in DKK, for example, I'd be up to my armpits in +4 weapons. In Treasures, I'd have +3/+4 weapons long before level 10. In BG, by level 7, I had +2 weapons coming out my ears. +3 is not an unreasonable benchmark for level 10.

The rule of thumb for DnD right from the early days is about +1 every 4 levels or so.

But you keep trying to defend woketard of the cunts shit.

 

[Nortar]

You keep telling yourself that HPs are not higher. For you, 56 is less than 29 because you don't feel that the opposite should be true. Your feels trumps basic math.

AD&D 2E Rogue backstab multiplier:
Level 10 - x4
Level 20 - x5


5E Rogue sneak attack
Level 10 - 5d6
Level 20 - 10d6

Does HP bloat correlate with damage increase? Yes/No/Epicz?

A 2E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword backstabbing for 4x damage would do on average (4.5+3+2)x4 = 38 average damage.

A 3E Rogue 10 with 18 Str and a +3 longsword will backstab for 4.5+3+4+5x3.5 = 29 average damage.

Which edition had the higher HP again?

We were talking about 5E.
But anyway, I seriously doubt that you don't know how make a lvl 10 rogue in 3E (or 5E) to deal way more damage even without extreme munchkinism minmaxing.

And the handwaving starts.

You provided numbers in favor of your POV by disregarding particularities of the corresponding rulesets,
ignored differences between level 10 in 2E and 3E,
ignored availability and ease of access to magic items and
now you talk about handwaving.

As the saying goes, a guilty mind betrays itself.

Bwahahahahaha! You were the one who gave me the criteria.


That aside, the availability of magic items is up to the individual DM.

If we look at the Gold Box games, by level 10 in DKK, for example, I'd be up to my armpits in +4 weapons. In Treasures, I'd have +3/+4 weapons long before level 10. In BG, by level 7, I had +2 weapons coming out my ears. +3 is not an unreasonable benchmark for level 10.

The rule of thumb for DnD right from the early days is about +1 every 4 levels or so.

But you keep trying to defend woketard of the cunts shit.

Are you talking about 2E vs 3E or about their implementaion in CRPGs?
Is it ok, that BG is not even turn based?
Is it ok that 3E has stats increase every 4 levels, so your 18 str rogue will be 20 str by level 10?
Is it ok, that by level 10 in 2E a rogue should a thieves guild master; and in 3E he is effectively a mid-tier "errand boy"?
Magic items is not just purely at DM discretion, 3E is incomparingly more generous when it comes to quality and variety of magic shit. And that's one of 3E's biggest problems.

The bottom line is, it's pointless to talk about HP bloat "in vacuum", you have to consider all other elements of the system.

 

[Fishy]

I prefer 2e, but that's mostly nostalgia to be honest, I'll never claim it's particularly better. But it's the one I grew up with and that I know best. Give me a 2nd ed CRPG and I know immediately what's what, and there are no complications like what dozen perks a character has. It's my comfort zone. I only know 3e from NWN and 5e from reading the books out of curiosity. At the end of the day a RPG system is just a tool, any competent DM will make it work how they want with an exception here or there and discarding what doesn't fit their campaign.

In terms of settings though, 2e is objectively where it's at. Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright were all amazing in their own way. Planescape I'm not too sure as I never played it apart from PS:T on the PC but well, planes are cool, so a setting around them is neat. And hell, I'll say it, I even love Forgotten Realms. To me, FR *is* the default high-fantasy setting. It has dwarves, elves, dragons, walking gods, totally-not-Gandalf, and it came with lots of (shitty) novels which built up a bit more the various cliché areas. There's nothing remotely original in Faerun, but I'd argue that this is the problem of every other setting. FR isn't there to be original, it's there to be the boring default canvas, and it does that great, while setting up familiar names and places.

I don't particularly care for Greyhawk as I didn't play much of 1st ed, and ToEE, played by the book, was a bit shit to be honest. I remember spending more time being miserable, half-dead and scrounging gold to level up or buy reagents to identify items (100gp black pearl iirc?) than actually exploring the dungeon. Ravenloft was never my thing either, the cliché horror it oozed never attracted me at the time, and same goes for Eberron when it came up later with the whole steam adventure thing not being my kink.

edit: just realised I forgot Dragonlance. I guess that says it all about how I feel about it.

 

[Snorkack]

A 2E Rogue 10 with 18 Str

A what?

 

[nikolokolus]

*snip* I don't particularly care for Greyhawk as I didn't play much of 1st ed, and ToEE, played by the book, was a bit shit to be honest. I remember spending more time being miserable, half-dead and scrounging gold to level up or buy reagents to identify items (100gp black pearl iirc?) than actually exploring the dungeon. *snip*

the dirty little secret of ToEE is that the actual dungeon was sort of precedurally built by Gygax for his kids to play around in and wasn't ever really going to be a commercial product, but people reacted so well to T1 The Village of Hommlet and constantly wrote into Dragon Magazine requesting the full dungeon, that the company felt like they had to release something, so Gygax tasked Frank Mentzer to flesh out it from his copious stacks of notes, because he was so busy trying to run the business side of D&D, and was out in Hollywood trying to negotiate film deals and handling the cartoon, etc. The bottom line is that ToEE is a really crappy example of a dungeon; it's linear, it doesn't make a whole helluva lot of sense, and it's a slog. I was always surprised that ToEE got adapted into a CRPG, because it was always sort of looked at with mild disappointment by the people I gamed with in the mid to late 80s.

 

[Cryomancer]

The bottom line is, it's pointless to talk about HP bloat "in vacuum", you have to consider all other elements of the system.

Yep. 5E is lower lethality than 2E? Yes. But is not that low lethality. Magic items are rarer and limited to 3 per member due attenument system and defensive magic is much more weaker. Is not high lethality as 2e "A Disintegrate can end the life of a ancient dragon in a single round" nor low lethality like 4e "A disintegrate can't kill a low level mob". Most people are satisfied with 5E "middle ground" lethality. I prefer 2E but is just my preference.

And defensive magic is much weaker on 5E

For example, stoneskin on 2E would NEGATE a full backstab damage. On 3E it would give DR 10/+5e. And on 5E just resistance to non magical weapons. Also, there is the magic resistance question which are the terror of high level "blasters" on 2E.

IMO, on 2e a Magician is much better as a GROUP BUFFER than as a blaster, mainly on levels 1~8. For example, a fireball can deal damage in one round which can hit your party, deal team damage and that is it. A haste, at lv 5 lasts 5 rounds(ie - mostly like the entire encounter), and give more mobility and damage to your party members. If your fighter can dish more 8 pts of damage on average thanks to the haste, you in 5 turns got 40 damage and thanks to the increased mobility, if you are at risk, a fighter can protect you easier.

Also, some spells on 5E dish way more damage. Meteor Swarm is an example. Sadly, necromancy, conjuration, alteration and illusion are IMO worthless on 5E.

----------------------------

On 2E you also don't pick which spells to learn. The spells found is up to the DM discretion. If you wanna learn knock and invisibility but no shop or treasure found has a copy of it, deal with it.

PS : I agree with Cael that WoTC is the Electronic Farts of the TT gaming. But 3E is still a amazing edition and Paizo PF1e improved it.