Why D&D 2e is the BEST edition ever.

[Cryomancer]

have chosen musclebound dorf basaka over anemic wizard in dress?

Even + Dwarf only exists on the movie adaptation of Hobbit... And robes and dresses are two different things. BTW, do you know how the Mul race exists in dark sun? Due rape cuz no human woman wanna dwarf. They only have half dwarf child as slave when their have no other choice and a lot of then must be under watch otherwise, they tend to commit suicide since is better than having a half manlet child.

System can only be fun if the GM is lenient and gives you lot leeway.

I agree. The GM on my campaing when I asked details about the campaign, doesn't enforce level cap on non human races and allow us to take points on one attribute and put in other... In other retroclones, like Lamentations of the flame princess, "non human" races like Elves are Races and classes together. No level cap, but a lot of DM's ban elves on LotFP cuz they have everything good from fighters and everything good from magic users.

LotFP also has alingment restrictions. Magic users MUST be chaotic and Clerics must be LAWFUL. I never played LotFP but watched a stream campaign on Bill Allan's channel.

I guess in an official conversion of Dark Sun, the Sorcerer Kings would not have the same high levels they had in 2nd edition.

Yep. Dark Sun has a conversion even for 4e which is really low lethality. Not the low lethality that I say about 5e but imagine wow clone levels of low lethality... The lack of water in the game is a harsh challenge. It is ignored in video game adaptations like the Shattered Sands and Wake of the Ravager, which I love both(but prefer the 2nd). And in a world where WoTC is removing Orcs due "wokeness", all Darker Topics of the Dark Sun like slavery, forced breeding, tyranny(...) would't be possible included.

Many spells that veiled alliance uses to maintain his secrecy, operate and etc are mid level spells, a half giant gladiator also needs to be mid level to be a effective "living siege weapon". And they don't try to assassinate the sorcerer king cuz Boryz is a lv 30 psionist and lv 30 defiler that can probably destroy their alliance with no problem. Epic level defilers can also use their enemies to fuel their spells "but players can play as a defiler". I doubt that any DM would allow that. The unique way to learn defiling magic is by being of "noble" bloodline and a faithful zealot of the sorcerer king. And if your character becomes too powerful, he will be send into "suicidal missions" to not be a threat to the king's power. Preserver magic is hard to learn? Yes. Since veiled alliance wanna to maintain his secrecy. But is less impossible. Even find a member of veiled alliance is hard. Dark Sun is a psionic heavy, magic rare world. And 5e doesn't even has rules for psionics. On 2e, defilers advance level extremely fast, think on thief/hobbit halfling(osr) levels of quick fullness. While preservers advance the level as the slowest pace of all classes and finding scrolls and a spellbook is very hard.

Also, since magic is hated, mindless throwing fireballs in front of a lot of people can mean that even if you defeat your enemy, a angry mob and come and lynch your character. Is best to masquarede your spells as psionics and divine magic.

I only played a one shot of dark sun but was 3.5e and more than a decade ago.

Dark Sun is a pretty interesting setting but the worst place to be "isekaied" IMO.

 

[Anonona]

Even + Dwarf only exists on the movie adaptation of Hobbit

I know it isn't exactly the same thing, but...

Spoiler

And a remainder that Fëanor was one, if not the greatest of the elven people, the mightiest in mind and body

 

[Mortmal]

System can only be fun if the GM is lenient and gives you lot leeway.

Hard disagree. Diffrent tastes for diffrent folks and rolling 3d6 strict has led to some pretty fun games.

First rolling for every stats instead of point buy is an obvious path to disaster, only difference with 1e there is women dont have lower STR. Demi humans have drastic level limitations, max 9 level in mage with 18 int for elves under any circumstances, multiclassing or not as far i understand it
I'm in a group of 8 and DMimg a group of six no complaints about sticking to the rules. Hell the pick up sever all agreed to the same rules so our characters can be used for any game another GM runs.

It's a reto-clone man people want this and pay for it if the system is as bad as you think or there are no new players interested in play old school the groups built around making this stuff would have lomg been gone.

Like Mortmal your obviously knowledable about older editions but this makes me wonder whens the last time you've played anything other than 5e?

Sure it's a matter of taste , i think i prefer a bit less of RNG and player actions being more meaningful. With shitty stats i am not going to enjoy the character . The demi human issue is old and that was solved in becmi , they were learning from their human companions and had some flavor features later on clan related . That is making the drawbacks less severe ,some gazeteer issues allow to pursue mage career as well . Thats my main grief with S&W those issue were solved 30 years ago i dont see why reediting stuff exaclty this way. It's still possible for the DM to modify that of course, but it should be in by default.
Been ages since i played those, not touched them since 3.0 release , so 20 years or so. 5e last few years yes , and i am quite pleased with it . Many arent and prefer pathfinder although. Oh yes i played a bit of DCC with irenaeus, it aint bad, but hes good DM, any system could work better.
I have nothing against trying those again, just playing a cripple is a big no.

 

[Reinhardt]

Imagine creating male character and chosing

over

 

[Bara]

It's still possible for the DM to modify that of course, but it should be in by default.

That is the default though both written out and implied. In the older editions and OSR books they all have text referring to characters with god awful rolls as lost characters with recomendation being that the DM allow the player to re-roll should the playee character fall into what the DM considers lost.

Or allow you to modify stats according to your chosen classes prime requisite with a 2 to 1 ratio.

Some like Worlds without number though clone more in spirit than text, even do give stat arrays. Or even alterative rolling methods.

The books both older editions and retro-clones leave it to DM/table choice what and where to apply these as the general belief is rulings before rules.

 

[commie]

3.5e bro

2e uses THAC0 lol

Thac0 is a great way to sort out the real men from the innumerate retard chaff.

 

[Cryomancer]

Or allow you to modify stats according to your chosen classes prime requisite with a 2 to 1 ratio.

I made my character sheet yesterday. Maxed INT but have only 6 DEX since the DM allowed that rule. And no CON mod. Only rolled in front of the DM. I have 2 "negative" stats. DEX and WIS.

Imagine creating male character and chosing

I don't like warcraft but lets compare the chad blood elf VS a dwarf

warcraft

Thats my main grief with S&W those issue were solved 30 years ago i dont see why reediting stuff exaclty this way. It's still possible for the DM to modify that of course, but it should be in by default.

This level caps on races are meant to make a "humancentric world". You can hate it, but the idea that a elf can never become strong enough to get the wizard title(magic user = class. Wizard = lv 11 title on SW). I personally DON'T like this mechanic, but without a "hard cap", the fictional world can become a elf dominated world since they have way more time to master anything.

IMO this hard cap should have been made optional.

 

[Nortar]

I don't like warcraft but lets compare the chad blood elf VS a dwarf

warcraft

Yeah, lets compare.

Spoiler

 

[Reinhardt]

chad blood elf

You mean bitch enslaved by demon forces because he was too weak. Wow, many chad!

 

[Mortmal]

System can only be fun if the GM is lenient and gives you lot leeway.

I agree. The GM on my campaing when I asked details about the campaign, doesn't enforce level cap on non human races and allow us to take points on one attribute and put in other... In other retroclones, like Lamentations of the flame princess, "non human" races like Elves are Races and classes together. No level cap, but a lot of DM's ban elves on LotFP cuz they have everything good from fighters and everything good from magic users.

LotFP also has alingment restrictions. Magic users MUST be chaotic and Clerics must be LAWFUL. I never played LotFP but watched a stream campaign on Bill Allan's channel.

.

Banning elf in LOFTP ? Thats exactly the kind of mentality i dont like , adding things is better . They are restricting for no reason, because they are clueless dumbfucks who does not even understand the base system mechanics . Looking at the xp table, you immediately see demi humans need a lot more XP to progress compare to warrior and mage. You are simply multiclassing , they will never be as good as both, and you will just get an average fighter self buffing itself at equivalent xp .The mage will have beefy spells way before the elf do . So you arent getting the best of both world, wont have 18 in str and INT , you can only cast spells when lightly encumbered so no heavy armor . You will obtain something more akin to an eldritch knight or arcane archer.Same for the dwarf he gets better saving throw at the cost of more XP.

 

[Poseidon00]

Best thing about 2E is the level progression. You can't just study or pray your way to godlike power, you have to earn it by deeds in the world. Druids MUST become a Grand Druid, and eventually give up the title, in order to continue advancing. Your class meant more than a set of abilities. It demanded certain roleplaying aspects from every class.

 

[Semper]

2e golbin stat block as 7Hp as reference still. Doesnt matter much anyway and it could be a ranger with favored foe goblinoid shooting too...

yeah, i know. got me confused too. must be a mistake on their end, because 1-1 hit die clearly can't average out at 7hp. taking 1st edition as a reference the goblin's stat block notes 1-7hp, which is exactly 1-1 hd.

 

[Bara]

I don't like warcraft but lets compare the chad blood elf VS a dwarf

But dwarfs can be mages in warcraft too now. So the elves get cusred fel magic addiction while the dwafs can safely deal with magic.

And on that note speaking of fantasy settings and dwarf casters could someone remind me weren't their dwarven casters or arcane variety in Mystara?

I think the non-mutated of their kind can only survive deep in their mountain holds after the great rain of fire but are some of the greatest enchanters and smiths of magical equipment.

 

[Cryomancer]

A 4 feet tall """man""" probably can get ripped easier than a 6 feet.

Banning elf in LOFTP ? Thats exactly the kind of mentality i dont like , adding things is better

I din't said that I agree. A lot of DM's uses LotFP to play extremely low fantasy settings where the supernatural is rare and having a party of elfs walking in the 18th century london kinda destroy their setting. When I played a Dark Sun one shot, the DM banned create food and water, otherwise, the survival aspect of that game would become worthless.

BTW, Magic is EXTREMELY dangerous on LotFP. But I an all for DM supremacy. The players are guests into the DM world. If you don't like, search another DM. There are far more players than DMs.

And on that note speaking of fantasy settings and dwarf casters could someone remind me weren't their dwarven casters or arcane variety in Mystara?

Nope. Even if you are a magic caster, being reincarnated into a manlet destroys your ability to cast arcane magic. On page 138 of Tome of Magic of Mystara.

Needless to say, is a fate far worse than death. If there are any Dwarf arcane caster in Mystara, is probably due some weird Glanti experiment that I never heard about it.

 

[Reinhardt]

A 4 feet tall """man""" probably can get ripped easier than a 6 feet.

Man who works as miner or blacksmith "probably" can get ripped easier than fag who plays lute or whatever elven shit they play daily.
Pick or hammer are heavier than lipstick after all.

 

[Mortmal]

A 4 feet tall """man""" probably can get ripped easier than a 6 feet.

Banning elf in LOFTP ? Thats exactly the kind of mentality i dont like , adding things is better

I din't said that I agree. A lot of DM's uses LotFP to play extremely low fantasy settings where the supernatural is rare and having a party of elfs walking in the 18th century london kinda destroy their setting. When I played a Dark Sun one shot, the DM banned create food and water, otherwise, the survival aspect of that game would become worthless.

BTW, Magic is EXTREMELY dangerous on LotFP. But I an all for DM supremacy. The players are guests into the DM world. If you don't like, search another DM. There are far more players than DMs.

And on that note speaking of fantasy settings and dwarf casters could someone remind me weren't their dwarven casters or arcane variety in Mystara?

Nope. Even if you are a magic caster, being reincarnated into a manlet destroys your ability to cast arcane magic. On page 138 of Tome of Magic of Mystara.

Needless to say, is a fate far worse than death. If there are any Dwarf arcane caster in Mystara, is probably due some weird Glanti experiment that I never heard about it.

Hold on viktor its not because you find a group that theres many around, a simple search on roll 20 for LOTFP does not query any results at all. On my FG discord i dont see anything either. That said i wont just join anyone indeed ,low fantasy setting is probably some boring homebrew restricting on everything and as unfun as possible. Whole party of elves probably dont work so good, but if you look at the illustration in books a 18th century elf looks like an effeminate courtier with a wig.
Yes magic is good in this ruleset , one more reason to use it , it has flavor.

 

[Reinhardt]

a fate far worse than death

NO AWESUM!!!

 

[Bara]

Nope. Even if you are a magic caster, being reincarnated into a manlet destroys your ability to cast arcane magic. On page 138 of Tome of Magic of Mystara.

Needless to say, is a fate far worse than death. If there are any Dwarf arcane caster in Mystara, is probably due some weird Glanti experiment that I never heard about it.

Found it they're the rot dwarves.


They made a ring out of multiple elven sages each one for a school of magic for a giant to wear and use. Magic dwarves are hard core.

 

[Lambach]

Sorry, S0rcererV1ct0r , 3.5 is still Über alles. You typically have to add some house restrictions to it in order to disallow all the ridiculous multiclass munchkinism and other shenanigans it allows, but mechanically speaking, it's still better. Just as a simple example, using your own favorite line of reasoning, it makes absolutely no sense that a common Orc has the same chance of resisting, say, a Stinking Cloud spell cast by a barely-above-novice Level 3 mage versus a demi-god Level 20 one (specially if the Level 20 one decides to apply Metamagic to that spell). Many other mechanics follow the same reasoning.

"But it's so much power creep and blah blah blah", some people say. Well yeah, duh, but if that bothers you, keep your campaign low-to-mid level, like 95% of people and official campaigns/modules do.

Furthermore, a proper Skill system that goes beyond a Rogue's ability to unlock stuff or disable traps goes a long way towards enabling you to craft campaigns that feature things beyond mere dungeon crawling. You don't have to, of course, if you love dungeon crawling alone and/or want to handle all non-combat situations by DM's decree alone, but it still gives you the option to play a campaign that doesn't center primarily around combat and still having the numbers on your character sheet and dice rolls play a major role.

 

[Cryomancer]

NO AWESUM!!!

Yep. How dare someone play a game to have fun. That must be prohibited.

it makes absolutely no sense that a common Orc has the same chance of resisting, say, a Stinking Cloud spell cast by a barely-above-novice Level 3 mage versus a demi-god Level 20 one (specially if the Level 20 one decides to apply Metamagic to that spell). Many other mechanics follow the same reasoning.

Strongly agree. In this aspect, 3e > 2e. And not only with spells. The "save VS poison" vs a lv 0 peasant who bought a cheap poison and applied it into a rusty dagger and a master assassin who owns a notorious assassin's guild, using the deadliest poison that he can make in his bodkin magical longbow arrow, implies in the same "save VS poison".

But "kits" and some spells can make your spells harder to resist. For example, Finger of death makes the enemy make a ST with -2 penalty. If you are a necromancer specialized mage, it is -4. Even the ridiculous strong creatures with ST = 3 VS spells would have to roll 7. And if you use greater malison before, he needs to roll 10 ( source > https://regalgoblins.com/spells.php?school=Enchantment/Charm&caster=Wizard ). Of course, there are ways to lower enemy saves on 3e too.

Spells that deal WIS damage are amazing to kill divine casters. Spells that deals CON damage like Cloudkill are excellent to weaken CON saves.

DC's are way better handled on 3e. Same with MR. But I honestly never played really old school games and wanna play it for the first time. After a really long time trying to get into old school game, I will play a couple of sessions. 2e also did some things better.

They made a ring out of multiple elven sages each one for a school of magic for a giant to wear and use. Magic dwarves are hard core.

"they stand out because they break all the rules for manlets in mystara(...)" ~0:27

Yes magic is good in this ruleset , one more reason to use it , it has flavor.

Is sad that so few games tried to make magic more dangerous.

 

[Reinhardt]

Yep. How dare someone play a game to have fun. That must be prohibited.

Yep, how dare someone enjoy playing as not epic level demigod caster. It should be prohibited!

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep, how dare someone enjoy playing as not epic level demigod caster. It should be prohibited!

Never said that. Also, I only prefer high level on CRPG's. Because most of then tends to be H&S heavy. For TT games which are group play, I prefer to play on mid levels, then one or two sessions on high level for power fantasy only, doing a "heist" against a really strong enemy and after it, retire the characters or have the entire party killed and start again. Most good modules and AP are written for lv 7~15. After it, is just too hard to find a good module or DM a good adventure.

Also has no problem with people like Lacrymas enjoying his no arcane magic setting. You should play his setting. Only divine magic and extremely limited.

 

[Alex]

2E is fun; fantastic magic item table.

But, kits are gay, and nobody wants to play a 2E cleric.

2E clerics are the fucking worst POS ever created

What are you talking about? I am not a big fan of how D&D dealt with clerics in general. But out of all the versions, 2e had the biggest variety with clerics, thanks to the sphere spell divisions.

 

[Gregz]

2E is fun; fantastic magic item table.

But, kits are gay, and nobody wants to play a 2E cleric.

2E clerics are the fucking worst POS ever created

What are you talking about? I am not a big fan of how D&D dealt with clerics in general. But out of all the versions, 2e had the biggest variety with clerics, thanks to the sphere spell divisions.

"Variety" doesn't mean effective, or fun to play.

 

[Mortmal]

"they stand out because they break all the rules for manlets in mystara(...)" ~0:27

Yes magic is good in this ruleset , one more reason to use it , it has flavor.

Is sad that so few games tried to make magic more dangerous.

D&D was associated with satanism, to the point there's no summon demon spell but summon fiend . So having people cast dangerous magic, unthinkable ! We suffer yet again of USA puritanism and politicaly correct dictature .Everything with a bit of spice is removed and only some indies tries it.