Why D&D 2e is the BEST edition ever.

[Mortmal]

Yep. Found a great DM that enjoys most mid level content and said that till about lv 8, we will probably get a level per session. Is not 2e, but is close enough. And ascending AC, not THAC0;

Jesus wept.

Milestone system, or packed with combat encounters its possible.

 

[Cryomancer]

Since it's your first game a few tips : Dont think of viktor the allmighty wizard, think of viktor the wizard who support the group, think group all the time. You are a hell lot more usefull casting web and grease making the other shines than doing direct damage. No one want egoistical players , write your story together.

I appreciate the advice. Also, we are talking about lv 4 magic user. I will only become a wizard at lv 11 on S&W(yes, wizards are a title not a class on the game). Even on CRPG's, where you can rest scum at such low level, is better to not waste precious spell slots in DD. I can have only 3 lv 1 spells attuned and 2 lv 2. I honestly don't know which spells to attune since I have no clue about the adventure. If will be heavily social, Charm Person is a must have. In dungeons, light is a must have. Read magic is another must have. Knock, I will only attune if nobody in my party can pick locks. I only talked with the DM. So yes, I din't decided which spells to put in my sheet. Will wait till the game day.

The worst thing that I can make is having 3 magic missiles attuned and 2 phantasmal force. S&W lacks some powerful tier 2 "modern" D&D spells such as acid arrow, and scorching ray. The tier 2 spells are horrible. I don't know if is on original game or if is to encourage more group play. Also, on S&W, you don't chose spells on level up. If I can't find a scroll of fireball, I can't learn how to cast fireball and scribe in my book for eg. The Referee can keep any spell that he sees as game breaking from the player hands.

Jesus wept.

Why? too fast leveling. I prefer high level on CRPG and mid level on P&P, so I searched a group adequate to my preferences.

Milestone system,

And XP by treasure.

Page 34 of Swords & Wizardry book

IDK which leveling system he will use but I as a player an a mere guest in his world. I was so hyped that I finally got a group that din't asked much questions.

 

[Morblot]

Nothing says "old school" like starting at level 4 and gaining one more each session.

 

[Cryomancer]

Nothing says "old school" like starting at level 4 and gaining one more each session.

I know that some 1e/2e DM's forced their player to stay months and months on lv 1~4. But anyone can set the rules that they wanna. If I make a group to start at lv 36 trying to become a Immortal on Mystara, why not? Is my and the group desire. I also entered the group in mid of a adventure. I don't know which level the group started.

 

[Mortmal]

Since it's your first game a few tips : Dont think of viktor the allmighty wizard, think of viktor the wizard who support the group, think group all the time. You are a hell lot more usefull casting web and grease making the other shines than doing direct damage. No one want egoistical players , write your story together.

I appreciate the advice. Also, we are talking about lv 4 magic user. I will only become a wizard at lv 11 on S&W(yes, wizards are a title not a class on the game). Even on CRPG's, where you can rest scum at such low level, is better to not waste precious spell slots in DD. I can have only 3 lv 1 spells attuned and 2 lv 2. I honestly don't know which spells to attune since I have no clue about the adventure. If will be heavily social, Charm Person is a must have. In dungeons, light is a must have. Read magic is another must have. Knock, I will only attune if nobody in my party can pick locks. I only talked with the DM. So yes, I din't decided which spells to put in my sheet. Will wait till the game day.

The worst thing that I can make is having 3 magic missiles attuned and 2 phantasmal force. S&W lacks some powerful tier 2 "modern" D&D spells such as acid arrow, and scorching ray. The tier 2 spells are horrible. I don't know if is on original game or if is to encourage more group play. Also, on S&W, you don't chose spells on level up. If I can't find a scroll of fireball, I can't learn how to cast fireball and scribe in my book for eg. The Referee can keep any spell that he sees as game breaking from the player hands.

Jesus wept.

Why? too fast leveling. I prefer high level on CRPG and mid level on P&P, so I searched a group adequate to my preferences.

Milestone system,

And XP by treasure.

Page 34 of Swords & Wizardry book

IDK which leveling system he will use but I as a player an a mere guest in his world. I was so hyped that I finally got a group that din't asked much questions.

It's oldschool system and more fitted for a good dungeon crawl in my opinion than a social adventure, in any case be sure to communicate a lot with your Dm before, and ask if its social , if your backstory fits in and with the others, its appreciated.

 

[nikolokolus]

Nothing says "old school" like starting at level 4 and gaining one more each session.

I know that some 1e/2e DM's forced their player to stay months and months on lv 1~4. But anyone can set the rules that they wanna. If I make a group to start at lv 36 as a Immortal on Mystara, why not? Is my and the group desire. I also entered the group in mid of a adventure. I don't know which level the group started.

It's not about "forcing" players to stay at levels 1-4, it's that typically it's very hard to keep a character alive at low levels long enough to get those first 4 levels, and then if you stick to the old-school conceits that you get more experience for gold than for hack and slashing (not to mention how unhealthy it really is to engage unnecessarily with foes), it just takes a long time by virtue of how long it usually takes to heal, how resource intensive dungeon exploration is, and the geometric increase in experience requirements per level. But hey, if gaining a level per session is what you want and what your DM wants then more power to you.

 

[Cryomancer]

if gaining a level per session is what you want and what your DM wants then more power to you.

Took a long time for me to find a group cuz :
1 - Many DM's cap their magic casters to one per party(this doesn't). The DM can enforce any rule that they want, and I an free to not play their game.
2 - Many DM's wanna play dungeons & kobolds. Find a DM which finds low level boring was not easy and many players also expect dungeons & kobolds.

Believe or not, I talked to this DM 3 and half weeks ago and he said that "the group is full", I had to convince him to let me in "reserve" case someone leaves and IMO S&W starts to become interesting at lv 5, where a druid can shapeshift; and really becomes interesting at lv 9, where paladins and rangers can cast spells and wizards can animate the dead. I know that most people prefer low level and there is nothing wrong with it. I an just glad that after so much time, I finally found a group with the same preferences of mine. Believe on me. Was NOT easy to find a group who loves old school and also hates ultra low level gameplay.

People mocked Lacrymas homebrew setting, me too, but I an glad that he found a group and is having fun with his setting. Anyway, I an going to the gym now and tomorrow will have a job interview. Till next time.

 

[nikolokolus]

if gaining a level per session is what you want and what your DM wants then more power to you.

Took a long time for me to find a group cuz :
1 - Many DM's cap their magic casters to one per party(this doesn't). The DM can enforce any rule that they want, and I an free to not play their game.
2 - Many DM's wanna play dungeons & kobolds. Find a DM which finds low level boring was not easy and many players also expect dungeons & kobolds.

Believe or not, I talked to this DM 3 and half weeks ago and he said that "the group is full", I had to convince him to let me in "reserve" case someone leaves and IMO S&W starts to become interesting at lv 5, where a druid can shapeshift; and really becomes interesting at lv 9, where paladins and rangers can cast spells and wizards can animate the dead. I know that most people prefer low level and there is nothing wrong with it. I an just glad that after so much time, I finally found a group with the same preferences of mine. Believe on me. Was NOT easy to find a group who loves old school and also hates ultra low level gameplay.

People mocked Lacrymas homebrew setting, me too, but I an glad that he found a group and is having fun with his setting. Anyway, I an going to the gym now and tomorrow will have a job interview. Till next time.

Honestly, I wish you well. Hopefully you have fun.

 

[Snorkack]

In all honesty, I think you struggled to find a group because your definition and idea of 'old school' is pretty exclusive. Anyways, have fun. And good luck tomorrow!

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I tried to find a group and will play S&W this saturday. Is not 2e but is close enough. I only din't played 2e due the lack of ability to find groups. But I wanna play it so much. And readed a lot of 2e books, played CRPG adaptations and watched streams of 2e.

Swords & Wizardry is an adaptation of the original Dungeons & Dragons "little brown booklets", to such an extent that it includes only the cleric, fighting-man, and magic-user classes, without even the thief class from Supplement I: Greyhawk. A considerable difference from 2nd edition AD&D, and you should have a much more "old school" experience.

Mystara is OD&D. The 2e port was pretty irrelevant, mentioning it yet ignoring Greyhawk and Dragonlance?

The Known World / Mystara campaign setting first appeared in adventure module X1 The Isle of Dread in 1981, for the B/X Moldvay/Cook version of D&D, and continued with the BECMI Mentzer version of D&D that began in 1983. However, the first setting books weren't published until 1987, with the Gazetteer series of 14 booklets and the Dawn of the Emperors box set. You are correct that the 2nd edition AD&D port was a desultory, gimmicky, token effort at preserving the setting after the elimination of non-advanced D&D.

Photo from Wayne's books:

 

[Cryomancer]

, without even the thief class from Supplement I: Greyhawk.

S&W has a "basic" and a "complete" book. The most basic book can be played with D6 and D20(not sure) and lacks a lot of classes and races, but the complete book has a lot of classes from original game. Not only Thieves, but also Assassins, a thief subclass. At 14th level, they can create an Assassin's guild. Backstab with a very lethal poisoned knife, can hide in shadows, disguise...

On page 9

No Illusionists at moment. Illusionists started at lv -2 on base game ( http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/clas013.html ). And before anyone asks, S&W has monks too. Page 18.

idea of 'old school' is pretty exclusive.

Well, the ideal game for me and the game which I an willing to play are two different things. My ideal game would be set in Glantri on Mystara and 2e, a game which I an willing to play is any game on any edition previous to 3rd or any retroclone as longs I don't need to spend months and months playing "dungeons & kobolds". I an already very frustrated in my life and failed in many of my objectives. I wanna game to do cool things that I can't do IRL.

 

[Bara]

I think your missing out on starting level at level 1 and going by gold to xp rules. Starting from nobodies to actual adventureres and then regional powers to legends is a great experience.

But glad you found a group. But man this Dungeons and Kobolds line is really beating a deadhorse its all D&D.

 

[Cryomancer]

I think your missing out on starting level at level 1 and going by gold to xp rules. Starting from nobodies to actual adventureres and then regional powers to legends is a great experience.

Well, S&W is quite different than 5e. Low levels for magic users are a terryfing experience. On S&W

• You roll your stats, so you will probably not have a CON mod.
• If you roll 1 which is 25% likely, you will have 1hp, meaning that any damage...
• Being revived has a chance of failure proportional to your CON.
• At lv 1, you have two spells per day. And one must be read magic. So, you cast a sleep and is worthless for the rest of the day.

Note that "tiers" doesn't exist in this games. A lv 11 Wizard is more akin to a local baron of a wilderness area than a "continental hero" like on 5e. Even at lv 4, I can make a ally assassin invisible, one strength to buff the fighter, one detect magic in a loot found, and one sleep in a nasty enemy and that is it. Worthless for the rest of the day. Assassins has only 15% chance of hiding in shadows or opening locks. Ultra low level characters on 5e are "heroes". Ultra low level charactesr on S&W are pushovers.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

3.5e bro

2e uses THAC0 lol

Doesn't like THAC0, loves the myriad of pointlessly overcomplicated +1 stats in 3.5E.

2E had room for improvement, I don't deny it, and I fully understand liking 3.5E better, especially if you like having to build a spreadsheet in order to plan your character build beforehand.

That said, if you actually read the handbook, supplementals and other 2E materials, you'll see the descriptions of how things work in the world are extremely fleshed out and go well beyond the cookie-cutter framework it's accused of being. There's clear vision to create a very hardcore RPG in a highfantasy world and this was discussed in-depth in the alignments thread a while back.

For the kind of RPG I enjoy, everything after 2E has been a decline, especially all the simplifications, lore destruction and woke BS in 5E that go hand-in-hand with the crowd they seem to be going for.

To illustrate my point, some sanity loss:

Racial kowtowing:
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...ns-dragons-tries-to-banish-racist-stereotypes

'Dungeons & Dragons' Tries To Banish Racist Stereotypes
Orcs were brutish savages. Drow (dark elves that live underground) were dark skinned and inherently evil.

"It is this thing lurking under the surface that really is painful for people who have faced those sorts of stereotypes in the real world," says Jeremy Crawford, the principal rules designer for D&D.

Simplified alignments, part of a trend to remove them entirely:
https://dnd5e.info/beyond-1st-level/alignment/

Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society. Gold dragons, paladins, and most dwarves are lawful good.
Neutral good (NG) folk do the best they can to help others according to their needs. Many celestials, some cloud giants, and most gnomes are neutral good.
Chaotic good (CG) creatures act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others expect. Copper dragons, many elves, and unicorns are chaotic good.
Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes. Many monks and some wizards are lawful neutral.
Neutral (N) is the alignment of those who prefer to steer clear of moral questions and don’t take sides, doing what seems best at the time. Lizardfolk, most druids, and many humans are neutral.
Chaotic neutral (CN) creatures follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else. Many barbarians and rogues, and some bards, are chaotic neutral.
Lawful evil (LE) creatures methodically take what they want, within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order. Devils, blue dragons, and hobgoblins are lawful evil.
Neutral evil (NE) is the alignment of those who do whatever they can get away with, without compassion or qualms. Many drow, some cloud giants, and goblins are neutral evil.
Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust. Demons, red dragons, and orcs are chaotic evil.

Attracting insane SJWs who do things like design free overpowered magic wheelchairs that are virtually indestructible and hover:

 

[aleph]

I am glad you found a group that fits the playstyle you enjoy.

Note that "tiers" doesn't exist in this games. A lv 11 Wizard is more akin to a local baron of a wilderness area than a "continental hero" like on 5e. Even at lv 4, I can make a ally assassin invisible, one strength to buff the fighter, one detect magic in a loot found, and one sleep in a nasty enemy and that is it. Worthless for the rest of the day. Assassins has only 15% chance of hiding in shadows or opening locks. Ultra low level characters on 5e are "heroes". Ultra low level charactesr on S&W are pushovers.

I don't get why you are so hung up on the tier description of 5E, it's like one paragraph that aims to give players a quick impression what the level ranges are supposed to represent. Beyond that, the bearing on the actual game is minimal.

 

[Reinhardt]

Well, S&W is quite different than 5e. Low levels for magic users are a terryfing experience. On S&W

• You roll your stats, so you will probably not have a CON mod.
• If you roll 1 which is 25% likely, you will have 1hp, meaning that any damage...
• Being revived has a chance of failure proportional to your CON.
• At lv 1, you have two spells per day. And one must be read magic. So, you cast a sleep and is worthless for the rest of the day.

"Skip no awesum, gib me awesum!"

Btw good luck. And make it codex playthrough!

 

[Cryomancer]

I don't get why you are so hung up on the tier description of 5E, it's like one paragraph that aims to give players a quick impression what the level ranges are supposed to represent. Beyond that, the bearing on the actual game is minimal.

My critique with the tiers as is portraited on 5e is that :

• IT is Sword coast centric. Lv 11 on "modern" neverwinter and lv 11 in the depths of the underdark, on the depths of the abyss, on city of embers, on Athas and so on are two completely different things.
• Players expect "saving the world" on high levels thanks to it. They don't expect stronghold management or otherworldly adventures like was on most high level adventures.
• It gives huge power spikes on new tiers. The 3rd tier of spells, the 6th tier and 9th tier of spell are huge improvements for any caster and for martials, more attacks per round and cool new things are gated around new "tiers"
• I saw people trying to use tiers even on other games. Inlcuding OSR. One DM that I've talked said that he prefer to play S&W on "tiers 1 and 2"

There is a youtuber trying to port Mystara to 5e and he said that 5e is too FR centric. I belive that is Mr Welch.

Attracting insane SJWs who do things like design free overpowered magic wheelchairs that are virtually indestructible and hover:

That is dumb. D&D is a extremely high magical setting. Paying for a cleric to heal your legs would probably be less expensive than a "rudimentary" wheelchair. And many people play this games for escapism. Did anyone talked to the people with wheelchair to see what they like in games?

As for "fantasy racism", fantasy races are different and that is it. IMO old D&D did it even better. Lower races such as dwarfs, half orcs and etc can't be magic users. And only humans can be glorious masters of life and death.

 

[Reinhardt]

Lower races such as dwarfs, half orcs and etc can't be magic users.

Korgan laughs in "lower" dorfish at demi-cuck triyng to imprison him.

 

[Cryomancer]

"Skip no awesum, gib me awesum!"

Yep. All spells that I've talked in this thread are "awesome buttons". Invisibility, knock, read magic, strength, none of this spells are about helping the group. All of then are about flashy explosions.

Korgan laughs in "lower" dorfish at demi-cuck triyng to imprison him.

Any Glantri noble can just cast fly and then bombard him with spells till he is a chicken while he can't even reach the caster. 6th tier magic on Mystara can transform a Staff into a Dragon(tome of the magic of mystara - page 138). OR why even fight? Just control the weather(page 148) and starve then to death, or reverse gravity and cast permanency in many places of their kingdom and living in their kingdom would be near impossible. And the highest nobles of Glantri can just send monsters created by then. Page 179. In few weeks, they can combining this spell with permanency, create a relative small army of 30th+ HD creatures and destroy ANY manlet kingdom.

 

[Reinhardt]

So much butthurt about manlets. Let me guess - fair elven maiden have chosen musclebound dorf basaka over anemic wizard in dress?

 

[Semper]

Goblin | D&D 5th Edition on Roll20 Compendium 7hp , longbow : 1D8 piercing, max damage or a crit kill it in one blow. Seems logical one headshot kill it immediately, else not.

AD&d 2E goblin has 1 Hit Die (7 hit points) longbow damage :1d8 , max damage or a crit kill it in one blow. Seems logical one headshot kill it immediately, else not.
Clearly some 5e HP bloat, drastical change of combat mechanisms , 5e is so HP bloated and dumbed down.

5e goblin's 2d6 hit dice - that's 7hp on average. a long bow deals 4.5hp damage on average.
2e goblin's 1d8-1 hit die - that makes 3.5hp. damage of a long bow in 2e is dependent on the type of arrow used. a flight arrow deals 1d6 and a sheaf arrow 1d8 hp damage.

there's higher probability of killing a goblin with a single shot in 2e than in the 5th edition.

 

[Mortmal]

I think your missing out on starting level at level 1 and going by gold to xp rules. Starting from nobodies to actual adventureres and then regional powers to legends is a great experience.

Well, S&W is quite different than 5e. Low levels for magic users are a terryfing experience. On S&W

• You roll your stats, so you will probably not have a CON mod.
• If you roll 1 which is 25% likely, you will have 1hp, meaning that any damage...
• Being revived has a chance of failure proportional to your CON.
• At lv 1, you have two spells per day. And one must be read magic. So, you cast a sleep and is worthless for the rest of the day.

Note that "tiers" doesn't exist in this games. A lv 11 Wizard is more akin to a local baron of a wilderness area than a "continental hero" like on 5e. Even at lv 4, I can make a ally assassin invisible, one strength to buff the fighter, one detect magic in a loot found, and one sleep in a nasty enemy and that is it. Worthless for the rest of the day. Assassins has only 15% chance of hiding in shadows or opening locks. Ultra low level characters on 5e are "heroes". Ultra low level charactesr on S&W are pushovers.

I've read it, its not even 2E , its 1E with plenty of unfun nasty stuff. First rolling for every stats instead of point buy is an obvious path to disaster, only difference with 1e there is women dont have lower STR. Demi humans have drastic level limitations, max 9 level in mage with 18 int for elves under any circumstances, multiclassing or not as far i understand it . Multiclassing limited to 5 level of fighter at best , so max 5 fighter likely 8 wizard and as much level of rogue you want. Then once you reach those caps you are still paying xp for three classes even if two of them are not advancing anymore. I dont think infravision and a few bonus make up for that.
Like 1e you need to go for human , and then you have the better classes , ranger , paladin, assassin, those does not require stats anymore to pick but they are still cleary better than fighter .
System can only be fun if the GM is lenient and gives you lot leeway.

 

[Mortmal]

Goblin | D&D 5th Edition on Roll20 Compendium 7hp , longbow : 1D8 piercing, max damage or a crit kill it in one blow. Seems logical one headshot kill it immediately, else not.

AD&d 2E goblin has 1 Hit Die (7 hit points) longbow damage :1d8 , max damage or a crit kill it in one blow. Seems logical one headshot kill it immediately, else not.
Clearly some 5e HP bloat, drastical change of combat mechanisms , 5e is so HP bloated and dumbed down.

5e goblin's 2d6 hit dice - that's 7hp on average. a long bow deals 4.5hp damage on average.
2e goblin's 1d8-1 hit die - that makes 3.5hp. damage of a long bow in 2e is dependent on the type of arrow used. a flight arrow deals 1d6 and a sheaf arrow 1d8 hp damage.

there's higher probability of killing a goblin with a single shot in 2e than in the 5th edition.

2e golbin stat block as 7Hp as reference still. Doesnt matter much anyway and it could be a ranger with favored foe goblinoid shooting too...

 

[aleph]

• IT is Sword coast centric. Lv 11 on "modern" neverwinter and lv 11 in the depths of the underdark, on the depths of the abyss, on city of embers, on Athas and so on are two completely different things.
• Players expect "saving the world" on high levels thanks to it. They don't expect stronghold management or otherworldly adventures like was on most high level adventures.
• It gives huge power spikes on new tiers. The 3rd tier of spells, the 6th tier and 9th tier of spell are huge improvements for any caster and for martials, more attacks per round and cool new things are gated around new "tiers"
• I saw people trying to use tiers even on other games. Inlcuding OSR. One DM that I've talked said that he prefer to play S&W on "tiers 1 and 2"

I think you are overlooking the fact that levels mean different things in different D&D editions. The level range in D&D is different and quite restricted (intentionally, I presume) compared to older editions, high level gameplay starts from around level 10-12 and epic levels are essentially 15 or so onward.
I guess in an official conversion of Dark Sun, the Sorcerer Kings would not have the same high levels they had in 2nd edition.

Btw, the description of the fourth tier in the PHB directly mentions the Multiverse, so if players don't expect otherwordly adventures, this is not the fault of the tier description.

 

[Bara]

System can only be fun if the GM is lenient and gives you lot leeway.

Hard disagree. Diffrent tastes for diffrent folks and rolling 3d6 strict has led to some pretty fun games.

First rolling for every stats instead of point buy is an obvious path to disaster, only difference with 1e there is women dont have lower STR. Demi humans have drastic level limitations, max 9 level in mage with 18 int for elves under any circumstances, multiclassing or not as far i understand it
I'm in a group of 8 and DMimg a group of six no complaints about sticking to the rules. Hell the pick up sever all agreed to the same rules so our characters can be used for any game another GM runs.

It's a reto-clone man people want this and pay for it if the system is as bad as you think or there are no new players interested in play old school the groups built around making this stuff would have lomg been gone.

Like Mortmal your obviously knowledable about older editions but this makes me wonder whens the last time you've played anything other than 5e?