Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[Average Manatee]

You cherry pick some part and outright ignore the rest to conform to your vision.

I'm not even sure Gygax realize himself, but when he refer to lawful as people respecting tradtion and custom, what it means is that such character or people rely on form of authority other than themselves, and allegedly higher. It's implied it's because such character that human themselves can't be trusted to make difficult judgment themselves, and then rely on other authority.

The parts that actually work in D&D and are represented there, Sarevok fits. The Lawful Stupid parts that no one who plays a lawful evil character cares about are useless and irrelevant.

Lets look at the chaotic evil page some more

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

Sarevok is not haphazard or poorly organized. That's exactly the opposite of him. He's not hot-tempered, arbitrarily violent, or unpredictable. He doesn't show hatred or lust for destruction, he's merely killing to become the next god. If the criteria to become the next god was to be the best dancer in Baldur's gate Sarevok would be tearing up the dance floor.

The chaotic evil also likes to corrupt the innocent and virtuous. People are play-things to the chaotic evil, to be used and manipulated for their own personal pleasure. A chaotic evil doesn't necessarily go after individuals just because they stand in the way of their success, they will harm or destroy people for the sheer pleasure of it.

Again, not Sarevok. He's not doing things for the sheer pleasure of it.

The chaotic evil being seeks personal freedom at the expense of those who aren't smart, capable, or ruthless enough to get what they want. If what this being wants will come only at the price of the freedom and happiness (not to mention the lives) of others, so be it. Other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if those freedoms cannot be held through their own strength and merit. All else being equal, the chaotic evil being is perhaps the most dangerous character of all, because one rarely knows how he might react to a given encounter. For reasons often known only to himself, he could ignore some situations, then suddenly explode in apparently identical ones. His behavior patterns are almost impossible to predict, for he has probably learned to curb and control his penchant for "evil" due to the constraints of civilization. A chaotic evil being is not expected to go about insanely slaughtering and torturing everyone he meets, for he isn't usually stupid. He will realize the consequences of such activities and will participate in such pleasurable distractions only when safe from discovery. To a chaotic-evil being, the lives of others have no value and are incidental in the pursuit of ultimate freedom and personal power.

Totally not Sarevok.

Funny how the page points out that chaotic evil isn't unusually stupid. Which means they are actually intended to be stupid, the page just needs to say that you aren't forced to literally murder everyone you see. He's still expected to randomly murder people for the lulz though, just not necessarily right in front of the police.

A chaotic evil character never feels compelled to keep his word. He will attack and kill an unarmed foe (those are the best kind). He will kill an innocent. He will use torture to extract information and for pleasure. He will kill for pleasure. A chaotic evil character will use poison. He will not help those in need. He prefers to work alone, as he values his freedom. He does not respond well to higher authority, is distrustful of organizations, and will disregard the law in pursuing his self-interest. He will betray a family member, comrade, or friend whenever it is convenient to do so. Chaotic evil characters do not respect the concepts of self-discipline and honor, because they believe such concepts limit their ability to gain power over others.

Again, not Sarevok. Everything he's done has been part of an organization and his plan has always been to rise to the top.

Well known chaotic evil characters from film or literature include: Gollum (Lord of the Rings), The Joker (DC Comics), Lord Voldemort (Harry Potter), and Lore (Star Trek).

Yeah, fucking none of these match Sarevok in any way, while I already went over how he's literally copycat Darth Vader

"b-buh lawful evil characters can't break the law!" yeah I'm pretty sure Star Wars probably has a law against mass murder of children.

 

[Sarathiour]

He's not hot-tempered, arbitrarily violent, or unpredictable. He doesn't show hatred or lust for destruction

He his, he kills his own men on several occasion, including his mentor. His chick also leaves him because she fears what he can do in anger.

If what this being wants will come only at the price of the freedom and happiness (not to mention the lives) of others, so be it.

He's not doing things for the sheer pleasure of it.

Again, not Sarevok. Everything he's done has been part of an organization and his plan has always been to rise to the top.

The whole iron throne end up in shamble, and the remaining member complains that he literally don't give a single fuck.

Remember :

He will betray a family member, comrade, or friend whenever it is convenient to do so.

Which he does in BG1, and potentially do it again in ToB.



If I requote everthing you say and apply it to Conan the Barabarian, will you realize the foolishness of your discourse ?

 

[Average Manatee]

You're ignoring the point. Chaotic Evil characters kill randomly for pleasure. Lawful Evil characters kill for well thought-out reasons to advance their status and power. The latter is what Sarevok does. Killing subordinates for fucking up or to protect himself is not Chaotic Evil, it's Lawful Evil. The fact that Sarevok also incidentally enjoys killing does not matter for this. Fucking Lawful Good Paladins are allowed to enjoy killing, they just kill evil things rather than killing whatever crosses their path according to random whims.

The whole iron throne end up in shamble, and the remaining member complains that he literally don't give a single fuck.

The player character is the one who wipes out the iron throne. Sarevok won't care about something once its dead and useless. Taking advantage of an organization to advance his power until it is useless to him is... definitely lawful evil? Again an chaotic evil character would be inherently opposed to organization, especially a very formal and large one like the iron throne.

Which he does in BG1, and potentially do it again in ToB.

Lawful Evil characters are also allowed to do this.

A lawful evil being is seldom subject to the secular laws of good society in general, as he sees those laws as restrictive and unfair because they deny the worthy their proper place. So-called "good" is seen as a means by which the undeserving are placed and maintained in positions of power, whereas each person should be allotted his place by his leaders according to personal merit. Life is valueless to the lawful evil character; those too weak to defend their possessions and positions don't deserve to have them in the first place.

Sarevok does not betray you in ToB vanilla. He can in Ascension. Except... Mellisan specifically dispels the geas he agrees to forcing him to be loyal to you. Guess that's an example of being lawful exactly, he follows you exactly until circumstances allow him to betray you. He'll still stay with you though if he morally aligns with you though.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Lawful characters work within the law. Serevok did not. He subverted the law to his benefit with lies, murder and sabotage, but that isn't the same thing.

Working within the law and subverting the law are not as contradictory as you think. Have you ever heard about lawyers? The more he subverts the law, the better a given lawyer is, so by your logic all top lawyers are chaotic evil, and all the shitty one are lawful evil?

He's a traitor to his government, his organization and even his own father. He even betrayed and murdered his own mentor in retaliation for helping him escape instead of helping him murder the dukes.

Many monarchs had murdered their own family members and then went to have a pretty normal reign. I don't think that murdering their own family members made them chaotic evil.

 

[Sarathiour]

Chaotic Evil characters kill randomly for pleasure.

The fact that Sarevok also incidentally enjoys killing does not matter for this.

You're not making any kind of sense.

the geas

an example of being lawful exactly, he follows you exactly until circumstances allow him to betray you.

 

[Average Manatee]

Chaotic Evil characters kill randomly for pleasure.

The fact that Sarevok also incidentally enjoys killing does not matter for this.

You're not making any kind of sense.

Lawful Good: Allowed to enjoy killing, limited to doing so against Evil. Doesn't kill Good or Neutral things if possible
Lawful Evil: Allowed to enjoy killing, but only actually does it when it advances his power/status/position. Doesn't randomly massacre things wherever he goes for the hell of it if it doesn't benefit him.
Chaotic Evil: Necessarily enjoys killing and does it randomly for no reason and unprovoked.

the geas

an example of being lawful exactly, he follows you exactly until circumstances allow him to betray you.

Let me bring up your quote:

"Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the law of society"

Sarevok voluntarily agrees to an oath that will bind him to support the player character (lawful), then when a literal demigod in the form of Mellisan dispels that geas he is now free to do as he chooses (lawful evil).

 

[Sarathiour]

Yeah, being given the choice between serving under a geas or rotting in hell forever is surely the textbook defintion of voluntarily agreeing.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah, being given the choice between serving under a geas or rotting in hell forever is surely the textbook defintion of voluntarily agreeing.

No, Sarevok already was returned to life by a piece of CHARNAME's soul (or imoen's which annoys him greatly). He has no need to take an oath, he's free to go as he pleases. Sarevok *desires* to follow you because you are powerful and potentially the next new god. He can't be the new Lord of Murder, but he can be the greatest subordinate to the new one, which is the strongest possible outcome for him. He's fine with that, he's fine working within a group and not being the leader because he's realized that he no longer can expect to be the top dog. This is entirely rational behavior expected of a Lawful Evil character. Then, if the player refuses and says that Sarevok is untrustworthy, he *offers* to swear an oath and be subject to a geas. He is the one who is offering to be permanently bound (he can't reasonably have expected Mellisan to be able to undo it at the end of ToB) to serve CHARNAME faithfully forever because he'd rather do that than be a normal mortal wandering Faerun.

Before you go, I have one more thing to ask of you, <CHARNAME>. Take me with you.

What?!

I once was sure that the old prophecies centered around me. Even if that is no longer the case, I know more about them than perhaps anyone. I can help you, <CHARNAME>. With the challenge in that room and more.

Of course, I do this for no selfless reason. There is power in your wake, <CHARNAME>. I am sure I am not the first to tell you this. And there is no better opportunity for me elsewhere.

Besides... you defeated me long ago. You have earned my respect. Think of it, <CHARNAME>! Brother and <PRO_BROTHERSISTER>, side by side!

And what use might you be to me?

Aside from the knowledge I retain, I am a warrior of no small ability. You fought me, <CHARNAME>; you would know. I have only become stronger from my time in Hell. Under one such as you, I could be greater still.

And how would I know that you wouldn't turn on me as soon as it suited you?

I will take an oath to follow you, my <PRO_BROTHERSISTER>, if that will satisfy. Here... in this place... such an oath would have power, like a geas. I could not betray you.

All right. If you swear an oath not to betray me... then you may join me.

Very well. I, Sarevok, swear on the bitter ashes of my mother and the dead god that is my father, in the name of vengeance and the bitter bile that is my blood... I swear that I shall not betray <CHARNAME> so long as I live.

Then even at the end when Mellisan dispels the geas he basically has to choose between Mellisan or you as his master because he's still at best a lackey of the next lord of murder. Whether he chooses you is up to your alignment/decisions/what you've convinced him of.

If you refuse to let him into your party his response is:

I see. So be it. Our business is finished then, <CHARNAME>. You have what you need, and so do I. Gather your companions for your challenge and be off. May we not meet again.

He has what he needs because he's already been revived to life and is mortal again. It's not essential for him to be your servant, it's just what he wants to be.

Finally if you refuse to force him to make an oath after he's offered it:

You... will not require an oath? An... odd... choice, <PRO_BROTHERSISTER>. I would have required it of you. If I had even let you live. As you wish, then... let us attend to your challenge. Remember... consider that you may need more companions to complete it.

He's actually surprised that you are allowing him the freedom not to take an oath an be bound to you, and this is one of the steps on the path to making him good (I think, not gonna check all this shit out).

 

[Sarathiour]

I mean, you're conviced that rational behaviour is the privilege of lawful evil, which is blatantly false.

You're contradicting yourself every two post.

Well known chaotic evil characters from film Lord Voldemort (Harry Potter)

I don't know which retard came up with such sentence, but according to you, Voldemort would be textbook Lawful evil, by taking advantage of an organization and having a goal in mind beneath his killing.

I see no point in trying to continue arguing with you, you constantly move the goalpost and can't realize how absurd your definition are.

 

[Average Manatee]

I mean, you're conviced that rational behaviour is the privilege of lawful evil, which is blatantly false.

Rational behavior working with a group to advance your interests and taking of laws when you can is lawful evil. Go read the site. Chaotic Evil is plain dumb mass murder.

Well known chaotic evil characters from film Lord Voldemort (Harry Potter)

I don't know which retard came up with such sentence, but according to you, Voldemort would be textbook Lawful evil, by taking advantage of an organization and having a goal in mind beneath his killing.

I have no idea who Voldemort is because I stopped reading books for children after only reading the first harry potter. He was depicted as pretty chaotic evil then IIRC, but then I only read it over a decade ago.

 

[rojay]

This may be the third most entertaining argument about alignment I've read on this website, and I haven't read any of this thread for the last 3 pages.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Rational behavior working with a group to advance your interests and taking of laws when you can is lawful evil. Go read the site. Chaotic Evil is plain dumb mass murder.

Not sure what "site" you're talking about, but Drow society is Chaotic Evil and worships a CE deity. And even they work together in groups and recognize the strength of it. It's been part of the lore since Gygax and co wrote them. It's even part of the alignment text in BG that CE characters can work in groups.

As Sarathiour said:

I mean, you're conviced that rational behaviour is the privilege of lawful evil, which is blatantly false.

And you've just proven him correct.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

This may be the third most entertaining argument about alignment I've read on this website, and I haven't read any of this thread for the last 3 pages.

There was a 20+ page alignment thread a while back. Mostly actual Skyrim players upset at the idea of alignment limiting them.

 

[Average Manatee]

It's even part of the alignment text in BG that CE characters can work in groups.

Obviously they *can* but the alignment is supposed to generally be against and disincentivize it. Because again, absolutes make for stupid. The text you reference specifically states

When chaotic evil characters band together, they are not motivated by a desire to cooperate, but rather to oppose powerful enemies.

In other words, they are usually only cooperating out of fear.

Not sure what "site" you're talking about, but Drow society is Chaotic Evil and worships a CE deity. And even they work together in groups and recognize the strength of it. It's been part of the lore since Gygax and co wrote them. It's even part of the alignment text in BG that CE characters can work in groups.

The Drow are completely fucking dysfunctional and spend more time fighting each other than they do anything else. That shows exactly how Chaotic Evil characters act.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

This may be the third most entertaining argument about alignment I've read on this website, and I haven't read any of this thread for the last 3 pages.

There was a 20+ page alignment thread a while back. Mostly actual Skyrim players upset at the idea of alignment limiting them.

Specifically, https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/a-eulogy-for-alignment-in-crpgs.135251/ from October 2020, which was just resurrected last month.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

In other words, they are usually only cooperating out of fear.

Fear or greed. Whatever motivates. Remember Korigan in BG2? How he sought out the group to raid a tomb?

Again, the Drow are an entire civilization, designed by and for CE beings. That's a matter of fact, no matter your critique of them.

The Drow are completely fucking dysfunctional and spend more time fighting each other than they do anything else. That shows exactly how Chaotic Evil characters act.

You mean like, killing family members as part of larger schemes to gain power? Gosh, who do we know that did that?

Attacking each other in groups, families against families. They have hierarchies, a religion, a unique technology, a concept of command etc. And they also plot and scheme, just like Sarevok did.

I realize you're committed to this, but Sarevok is hardly the only CE being that isn't Chaotic Stupid.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Let's use the Vaz' scale here :

Relentless--->Neutral--->Casual
Bitching--->Neutral--->Diplomat

Seems this thread has been hijacked by Relentless Bitching characters.

 

[Average Manatee]

Fear or greed. Whatever motivates. Remember Korigan in BG2? How he sought out the group to raid a tomb?

Man, what do you think "usually" means? It means "usually". And every alignment can cooperate out of fear or greed, the point is that usually for a CE character they are cooperating out of fear.

Again, the Drow are an entire civilization, designed by and for CE beings. That's a matter of fact, no matter your critique of them.

They are a fictional civilization and have to be judged based on whether they could actually exist and adhere to the fictional alignment and actions they are said to have. The same way that alignments are fictional and we can judge such statements as "lawful characters never lie or break a promise" as farcical.

You mean like, killing family members as part of larger schemes to gain power? Gosh, who do we know that did that?

Attacking each other in groups, families against families. They have hierarchies, a religion, a unique technology, a concept of command etc. And they also plot and scheme, just like Sarevok did.

I realize you're committed to this, but Sarevok is hardly the only CE being that isn't Chaotic Stupid.

Totally different between killing individual people and causing complete societal collapse, which is what the Drow do and which is in keeping with CE ideology.

Also it is fear that forces the drow to band together to fight one another else they'll themselves be killed by Drow. And it is similarly fear that their goddess lolth uses to keep them in line and force them to endlessly fight amongst themselves (as Viconia herself states). Yes, the drow are fucking Chaotic Stupid and their Goddess is the biggest example of Chaotic Stupid. They'd take over the world effortlessly if they operated by literally any other alignment yet they get nowhere because of infighting. Basically like the Skaven from Warhammer.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Man, what do you think "usually" means? It means "usually". And every alignment can cooperate out of fear or greed, the point is that usually for a CE character they are cooperating out of fear.

As I said, whatever motivates. The point is that they can cooperate.

They are a fictional civilization and have to be judged based on whether they could actually exist and adhere to the fictional alignment and actions they are said to have.

Really doesn't matter what your critiques are. If you don't accept the fundamentals of the lore, why bother discuss what Sarevok is? You're basically saying you're going to ignore what's written and make something else up.

The same way that alignments are fictional and we can judge such statements as "lawful characters never lie or break a promise" as farcical.

It's literally in the alignment description that they can lie, dude. What are you talking about?

Totally different between killing individual people and causing complete societal collapse, which is what the Drow do and which is in keeping with CE ideology.

Drow do not intend to collapse their society. The reason Lloth put the rules in place she did (e.g., only house vs house, not total war and constant murder 24/7) is so they can be chaotic, but not fall apart completely - unless she wants them to.

Also it is fear that forces the drow to band together to fight one another else they'll themselves be killed by Drow. And it is similarly fear that their goddess lolth uses to keep them in line and force them to endlessly fight amongst themselves (as Viconia herself states). Yes, the drow are fucking Chaotic Stupid and their Goddess is the biggest example of Chaotic Stupid. They'd take over the world effortlessly if they operated by literally any other alignment yet they get nowhere because of infighting.

Is Lloth stupid for pitting her people against each other so she can maintain her hold on them? Are the priests stupid for carrying out her orders in order to maintain their power and authority? Are individual Drow stupid when they outsmart one another in various schemes?

No. They aren't. You may find it an imperfect system, but there are advantages to it for those who run it and there is clearly a plan born from intelligence, as you just admitted, not random violence and killing everything that moves. They are evil. But they are not stupid.

Orcs are Chaotic Stupid. Drow are not. Sarevok was not. But he was Chaotic Evil.

 

[NecroLord]

In D&D publication history,Drow usually shifted between chaotic and neutral evil. Nowadays they are mostly neutral evil.
The D&D alignment system has always been kind of busted. Sarevok,while chaotic evil,proves that this alignment(one of the most problematic ones in D&D history,with Chaotic Neutral coming in second) does not mean violence for the sake of violence,but careful,methodical manipulation in order to achieve his(chaotic evil) ambitions and lust for power.

 

[Average Manatee]

It's literally in the alignment description that they can lie, dude. What are you talking about?

I've quoted text from the alignment description previously that shows how they can flout laws and stuff, but the description does in fact say that they are now allowed to lie. Which is why we have to ignore obviously stupid parts of alignment descriptions

A lawful evil character will keep his word if he gives it and will never lie

Is Lloth stupid for pitting her people against each other so she can maintain her hold on them? Are the priests stupid for carrying out her orders in order to maintain their power and authority? Are individual Drow stupid when they outsmart one another in various schemes?

No. They aren't. You may find it an imperfect system, but there are advantages to it for those who run it and there is clearly a plan born from intelligence, as you just admitted, not random violence and killing everything that moves. They are evil. But they are not stupid.

Yes, they are all stupid. Unless we consider Drow to be suicidal actually engaging in their turbomurderfest only endangers themselves because every ruler can figure out they'll eventually get knife in the ribs the same way. Plenty of Drow have escaped lolth. It's actually kind of weird because if we go by canon as soon as you turn off the turbomurder shit lolth enforces any Drow civilization would grow exponentially due to their absurd fertility rates* and take over the world.

*It's canon that drow women get pregnant as often as non-elven races and commonly have litters of children, which they require just to maintain their population with their average lifespan cut so low by constant murder. And they get superorgasms from pregnancy to encourage them to bear children because otherwise they'd never do it (because they are so evil and self-interested). When you have to start making up stuff like this to make your race actually work in the game world you've made a chaotic stupid race.

Sarevok was not. But he was Chaotic Evil.

Why? Because he likes murdering people? Cmon that's the lamest argument possible.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

I've quoted text from the alignment description previously that shows how they can flout laws and stuff, but the description does in fact say that they are now allowed to lie.

I don't know what you quoted, but it's obviously a simplification and not from 2E.

The BG game text description says that Lawful Evil characters can and can break their word, IF they can find a way to do so legally (or within the bounds of whatever code that binds them). And that's sourced directly from the 2E player's handbook:

Lawful Evil: These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings.

All you've done is grab some random quote and claim "I quoted it!" over and over.

Tell me, which rule book and which page of it you're getting that from.

Yes, they are all stupid. Unless we consider Drow to be suicidal actually engaging in their turbomurderfest only endangers themselves because every ruler can figure out they'll eventually get knife in the ribs the same way. Plenty of Drow have escaped lolth. It's actually kind of weird because if we go by canon as soon as you turn off the turbomurder shit lolth enforces any Drow civilization would grow exponentially due to their absurd fertility rates* and take over the world.

*It's canon that drow women get pregnant as often as non-elven races and commonly have litters of children, which they require just to maintain their population with their average lifespan cut so low by constant murder. And they get superorgasms from pregnancy to encourage them to bear children because otherwise they'd never do it (because they are so evil and self-interested). When you have to start making up stuff like this to make your race actually work in the game world you've made a chaotic stupid race.

"WAAAAAAAAAAA! THE RACE ISNT BELIEVAVLE! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I JUST WANT TO IGNORE THE LORE AND MAKE UP WHATEVER I WANT!"

Come on, dude. Even intelligent beings do seemingly nonsensical things, especially when you add good/evil mechanics.

"Why do they give to charity?! They're weakening their genetic line and encouraging weakness in the gene pool! BEEP BOOP! DOES NOT COMPUTE! LAWFUL STUPID!"

Why? Because he likes murdering people? Cmon that's the lamest argument possible.

Aren't you the one who quoted this:

The chaotic evil being seeks personal freedom at the expense of those who aren't smart, capable, or ruthless enough to get what they want.

Wherever it's from, yes. They are psychopaths, in the clinical sense. They see everyone else as tools for their gain and will lie, cheat, steal, murder, scheme or do whatever else they want. And that's what Sarevok did, and that's why he's Chaotic Evil.

 

[The Limper]

So…. Lets just compromise and call him Neutral Evil! Well now, I’m glad that’s finally settled. Phew! Now, lets move on to the elephant in the room shall we….. Do you think Jaheira’s inherit bitchnag was due to her just being a woman in general or did Khalid “Ooops, sorry, wrong-hole dear!”her one too many times?

 

[Average Manatee]

I don't know what you quoted, but it's obviously a simplification and not from 2E.

It's from the same site we've been talking about from the last page, of which BG's alignment quotes are a subset. Pay attention.

http://easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html

Wherever it's from, yes. They are psychopaths, in the clinical sense. They see everyone else as tools for their gain and will lie, cheat, steal, murder, scheme or do whatever else they want. And that's what Sarevok did, and that's why he's Chaotic Evil.

What does this quote

The chaotic evil being seeks personal freedom at the expense of those who aren't smart, capable, or ruthless enough to get what they want.

have anything to do with what you said? What does personal freedom have to do with any of that?

No, those are all simply traits of all evil characters. The lawful/chaos axis is not about whether you are evil or good. It's about whether you conform yourself to law (whether they be explicit laws, or acting as part of an organization with implicit rules) or you don't (preferring to be free an unhindered by any restrictions).

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

It's from the same site we've been talking about from the last page, of which BG's alignment quotes are a subset. Pay attention.

http://easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html

And that's not a rulebook, is it? It says what you're quoting is sourced from a Dragon Magazine article in 1979 and a book on Ninjas in 1994.

Why you put this above the 2E Player's Handbook that's also the in-game alignment description is a mystery, but maybe you're the one who needs to pay attention and not believe everything you read online.

Well known lawful evil characters from film or literature include: Darth Vader (Star Wars), Magneto (Marvel Comics), Dolores Umbridge (Harry Potter), and the Borg (Star Trek, the Next Generation).

This is your source.

have anything to do with what you said? What does personal freedom have to do with any of that?

Personal freedom = personal power. The power to control your destiny and do what you want. Again, this site is obviously paraphrasing and isn't an official rulebook.

Or do you think what defines CE characters is the desire to take frequent vacations?

The lawful/chaos axis is not about whether you are evil or good. It's about whether you conform yourself to law (whether they be explicit laws, or acting as part of an organization with implicit rules) or you don't (preferring to be free an unhindered by any restrictions).

Or whether they break the laws, which is what Sarevok did.

Remember that at the end of the game: you expose his lawbreaking, which was flagrant. He was a CE character who pretended to be lawful. In the same way a serial killer like Dexter pretends to be lawful. It doesn't make them actually lawful.

A LE character may break the law, but he's generally going to try to be as subtle as possible about it if he does and stay within the realm of technicalities. Because, in most cases, they really just fear the consequences of breaking the law, whatever those may be. If there are none, and they know it, then they might get a bit creative with their interpretations of the law and how they keep it. Even if that results in the death or suffering of another.

You could make the case btw that LE characters are "stupid" for doing this. That they create bureaucracies that are inefficient. That they put themselves and others at needless risk for selfish gains, thus harming the society they live in and potentially harming themselves. They are, by nature, parasites, when they could probably do just as well as symbionts.

Evil's selfishness is as "stupid" as Good's altruism. It's not really appropriate to make intelligence judgements based on moral philosophies. Especially in a fantasy setting built to accommodate them.