Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[Average Manatee]

This is your source.

Read the fucking thread dumbfuck. I didn't suggest the source.

Remember that at the end of the game: you expose his lawbreaking, which was flagrant. He was a CE character who pretended to be lawful. In the same way a serial killer like Dexter pretends to be lawful. It doesn't make them actually lawful.

A LE character may break the law, but he's generally going to try to be as subtle as possible about it if he does and stay within the realm of technicalities. Because, in most cases, they really just fear the consequences of breaking the law, whatever those may be. If there are none, and they know it, then they might get a bit creative with their interpretations of the law and how they keep it. Even if that results in the death or suffering of another.

Law vs. chaos isn't about literally following the law or not. It's more about whether you adhere to the structure of an organization and bend it to your will, or don't care and go your own way. As you say, LE is only following the law out of fear, which is exactly the same reason a chaotic character might follow the law. So you can't use that to judge him. It's not like his plot was obvious, it took all of BG1 to expose it.

Going back to the BG description of alignments, tell me which of these characters is Sarevok:

An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant

or

bloodthirsty buccanear and monster of low intelligence

It should be pretty easy seeing as Sarevok is literally an iron-fisted tyrant (both among those he commands and as he plans to be crowned grand duke of the city) and also literally a devious greedy merchant (creates an iron crisis to get rich off selling weapons).

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Read the fucking thread dumbfuck. I didn't suggest the source.

The guy who quotes Darth Vader articles in a debate is calling me a dumbfuck.

Why did you continue to quote it then, genius?

Law vs. chaos isn't about literally following the law or not.

As you say, LE is only following the law out of fear, which is exactly the same reason a chaotic character might follow the law. So you can't use that to judge him. It's not like his plot was obvious, it took all of BG1 to expose it.

Again, a CE character suppresses their nature to survive in society to a degree, but he still acts on it, even if it means breaking the law. Just as Sarevok did.

But please, quote another random website.

Going back to the BG description of alignments, tell me which of these characters is Sarevok:

Those are examples. Duh.

Is Sarevok a greedy merchant? Sarevok doesn't want to be an iron-fisted tyrant either. He wants to be a god. He doesn't want to rule an empire through laws, he wants to murder the leaders of an empire and then kill an empire by sending them into a war of sacrifice. He doesn't want to rule by law, he wants ultimate power.

You have the most myopic view of anyone I've ever argued alignments on. Yes, the bloodthirsty OR monsters of low-intelligence are going to be examples of CE because they value STRENGTH over all else, and lack the intelligence to even pretend to follow laws as Sarevok did. They naturally gravitate toward CE and are thus stereotypical of CE.

They are TWO examples, STERYOTYPES, of CE characters, but not the ONLY CE characters. Use your head, you Harry Potter fan article quoting midwit.

 

[BruceVC]

Non-Edgy Gamer and Average Manatee

You guys have raised some good points in this debate and I have vacillated at times between what should Saveroks alignment be, CE or LE

But I agree with Average, he is more LE.

End of the day the entire Iron Throne plot was not about chaos in its objectives, it was very calculated and specific around its plans and Saverok played his part like a LE characters

Lawful doesnt mean you have to obey laws that are good or virtuous, its means you follow laws or rules within a structure and these rules\laws could be good or evil

Saverok has qualities of both CE and LE but he is overall more LE

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

End of the day the entire Iron Throne plot was not about chaos in its objectives, it was very calculated and specific around its plans and Saverok played his part like a LE characters

The plan was literally to cause chaos. That's why the iron crisis and agitating BG to think there was a threat from Amn. He wanted war, chaos and death on as big a scale as possible.

Lawful doesnt mean you have to obey laws

its means you follow laws

 

[BruceVC]

End of the day the entire Iron Throne plot was not about chaos in its objectives, it was very calculated and specific around its plans and Saverok played his part like a LE characters

The plan was literally to cause chaos. That's why the iron crisis and agitating BG to think there was a threat from Amn. He wanted war, chaos and death on as big a scale as possible.

Lawful doesnt mean you have to obey laws

its means you follow laws

Yes but chaos in this sense is subjective, his plans were about steps that led to collapse and chaos. So you must focus on the actual plans and they were methodical and structured ....they made sense. For example (quoted from BG wiki)

• killing workers in the Nashkel Mines and making their ore unsuited for weapons and tools by contaminating the ore brought out of the mines
• blaming it an Amn
• This plan also required the elimination of rival merchants guilds, such as the Seven Suns
• When the hostility between Baldur's Gate and Amn was high enough, the Iron Throne would offer a deal to the Dukes of Baldur's Gate to sell them good iron ore, weapon and armor, which they had stockpiled from their operations
• After the Iron Throne would have made a huge profit, they would have made amends to lessen the hostility between Baldur's Gate and Amn and preventing them from going into war, because that would have been disastrous for trade in the Sword Coast. This plan would have succeeded if the insider, Sarevok, who executed some part of this plan, didn't have his own agenda in mind. He saw the Iron Throne as a pawn to create hostility between Baldur's Gate and Amn, and would then offer to lead Baldur's Gate's armies against armies of Amn if he was made Grand Duke. The only way Sarevok could become Grand Duke would be by assassinating some or all of the dukes, who would be hesitant to go into war.

This is not chaos, this is organised and fits LE

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Yes but chaos in this sense is subjective, his plans were about steps that led to collapse and chaos. So you must focus on the actual plans and they were methodical and structured ....they made sense. For example (quoted from BG wiki)

No, you must focus on the goal. Someone who has a goal of Chaos is Chaotic. Do you think someone who has a goal of Evil can be Good?

Wait, don't answer that. I have a feeling you'll say yes.

This is not chaos, this is organised and fits LE

Again, it's called having high intelligence, but still having the goal of chaos.

 

[BruceVC]

Yes but chaos in this sense is subjective, his plans were about steps that led to collapse and chaos. So you must focus on the actual plans and they were methodical and structured ....they made sense. For example (quoted from BG wiki)

No, you must focus on the goal. Someone who has a goal of Chaos is Chaotic. Do you think someone who has a goal of Evil can be Good?

Wait, don't answer that. I have a feeling you'll say yes.

This is not chaos, this is organised and fits LE

Again, it's called having high intelligence, but still having the goal of chaos.

Yes, you know my view on redemption arcs and the Romance of evil characters, they can change

 

[Sarathiour]

"yeah, you could say that I'm a huge expert in DnD alignement, my favorite CE character are Voldemort and Hitler"

Popamoler who can't even interpret correctly 10 line of text.

 

[The Limper]

Funny thing about that silly AD&D alignment matrix…. Its so open to interpretation it really doesn't serve its purpose. Just like the racial restrictions. The fans started bitching and we get supplements that bend the rules to keep the fan base happy and characters in their novels who are out of alignment or racial restriction, like Pikel Bouldershoulder or Alias’s pet Saurial…. Makes one wonder why they put the restrictions there in the first place…..

 

[octavius]

The restrictions were there so characters would be unique. Then unique snowflakes started playing RPGs and restrictions became "problematic".

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Its so open to interpretation

Alignment is objective, not subjective. The moment you start using your own interpretation is the moment it becomes worthless.
The main issue with alignment is people see words like 'good' and 'evil' and decide they can use their own interpretation.

 

[Sratopotator]

Even though it's objective, it's worth keeping in mind that creatures of clear and obvious alignments tend to live in outer plains. Even high level clerics, god's chosen mortals, and shit like that, are at best "almost there" when compared to minor planar beings.
So it can be argued that mortals are not that clear cut when it comes to alignment.
Even though Sarevok larps as a god, a god he is not (at least not yet), so he is acting erratically like a typical mortal. He doesn't even align with Bhaal (Neutral Evil).

 

[NecroLord]

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Even though it's objective, it's worth keeping in mind that creatures of clear and obvious alignments tend to live in outer plains. Even high level clerics, god's chosen mortals, and shit like that, are at best "almost there" when compared to minor planar beings.
So it can be argued that mortals are not that clear cut when it comes to alignment.
Even though Sarevok larps as a god, a god he is not (at least not yet), so he is acting erratically like a typical mortal. He doesn't even align with Bhaal (Neutral Evil).

This is true. But Sarevok couldn't have been more of a "Chaotic Evil but still smart" stereotype if he tried. Well, I guess if he were a serial killer, maybe.

 

[Storyfag]

and also literally a devious greedy merchant (creates an iron crisis to get rich off selling weapons).

That's Rieltar, his stepfather, not Sarevok himself. Sarevok hijacked the scheme for his own ends.

 

[NecroLord]

 

[underground nymph]

man, this whole alignments discussion is pure gold… and a good example of why this system has been scrapped.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

man, this whole alignments discussion is pure gold… and a good example of why this system has been scrapped.

Because people are jelly brains who can't (or don't want to) wrap their heads around such a system, and just want to play murderhobos anyway?

The most people want is something like Mass Effect's Renegade/Paragon system, which wasn't even based on good or evil. And I think munchkins would STILL whine about it.

That and it's just a reflection of a society that's long since lost all of its morals. People don't want there to be a right or a wrong (or even a male or female), let alone a law or a chaos, even in games.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The most people want is something like Mass Effect's Renegade/Paragon system, which wasn't even based on good or evil. And I think munchkins would STILL whine about it.

they turned it into good/evil in ME2 because mushbrains couldn't understand the concept of a Dirty Harry cop

Luke asks Yoda "But how am I to know the good side from the bad?", if it was made today Yoda would explain the answer to him rather than the answer he actually gets.

 

[razvedchiki]

do you need more than 2 pips into ranged weapons?

 

[Sarathiour]

do you need more than 2 pips into ranged weapons?

In which context ?

 

[The Limper]

The restrictions were there so characters would be unique. Then unique snowflakes started playing RPGs and restrictions became "problematic".

So Rangers are unique because they could only be good-aligned and Druids are unique as they were labeled as TN only? Someone wanting to play an evil Ranger is a Snowflake….Explain that logic please…. What makes a Woodsman automatically inherit goodness? But the Druid, a nature protector, cannot be good? The Druid who defends nature, which would make them see themselves as good and those who would want to harm nature as evil, no?

Of course i get the idea Gygax was trying to balance a game system and a roleplaying system at the same time. Since they were sticking to alignment in 3rd edition the alignment restriction changes were a step in the right direction, at least regarding class restrictions per alignment. I still prefer 2nd edition gameplay in general, as that’s what i grew up with, but the class alignment restrictions choices implemented in 2nd edition were a partiall miss, let alone trying to assign alignments to creatures and NPCs…. It just gave the pain in the ass players/rules lawyers another bitching point. Then we’d have to lump up the rules lawyer to move the game forward, which sucked because he would be a real grudge holder, not show up for the next 3 sessions, which considering he was the Cheetos supplier, lessened the game

 

[The Limper]

Its so open to interpretation

Alignment is objective, not subjective. The moment you start using your own interpretation is the moment it becomes worthless.
The main issue with alignment is people see words like 'good' and 'evil' and decide they can use their own interpretation.

I can agree with that Rusty.

 

[Sarathiour]

So Rangers are unique because they could only be good-aligned and Druids are unique as they were labeled as TN only? Someone wanting to play an evil Ranger is a Snowflake

Yes.
Yes.
Yes, and a retard.
Because per AD&D, a ranger is not just some guy larping in the wood, but a champion of good with strong altruistic and spiritual value. It's precisely because he's exceptional that he's allowed to receive various boon, the most well-known being his ability to cast spell at level 8.

I dunno why guys keep pretending that the alignement restriction exist in a vacuum, every class concerned got an heavy description of the traits expected from this character. People who are bitching are people who can't read.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Because per AD&D, a ranger is not just some guy larping in the wood, but a champion of good with strong altruistic and spiritual value. It's precisely because he's exceptional that he's allowed to receive various boon, the most well-known being his ability to cast spell at level 8.

What, are you saying that a village wouldn't hire a ranger to camp out in the woods and murder people at night? How terribly close-minded of you.

I dunno why guys keep pretending that the alignement restriction exist in a vacuum, every class concerned got an heavy description of the traits expected from this character. People who are bitching are people who can't read.

Without Alignments, Planescape wouldn't exist. An entire setting based on "living philosophy" and metaphysical concepts like belief. Dozens of extraplanar beings who were born from the idea of Good and Evil would be reduced to stereotypes of their classical counterparts, probably with a much less unique lore, if any worth speaking of at all.

4E was built for people like this and it's boring garbage. There's your dream game, munchkins. Why aren't you playing it?