Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[Average Manatee]

Sure, but that's normal lawful evil behavior, right? Co-opting the legal institutions and positions to advance your own goals while remaining outwardly respectable? If all went according to plan Sarevok would end up being hailed as a King and conquering the Sword Coast. He's basically a copycat Darth Vader (in alignment, looks, and end goal of killing all his equals). Killing subordinates for fucking up is par for the course, that's one of the punishments to fucking up. Mass murder is also fine to advance your goals. Chaotic Evil characters are those who kill for no logical reason or just the fun of it.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I feel that law/chaos are more of a method of archiving goals rather than some nebulous character traits. Saverok was using lawful methods, which makes him lawful. Lawful evil people have no problem going outside the law if they can get away with it, they just care about protecting their image and boosting hierarchical structures they use to gain power.

 

[Average Manatee]

I feel that law/chaos are more of a method of archiving goals rather than some nebulous character traits. Saverok was using lawful methods, which makes him lawful. Lawful evil people have no problem going outside the law if they can get away with it, they just care about protecting their image and boosting hierarchical structures they use to gain power.

Yeah I guess the point of contention is that compared to the devil that is explicitly bound by a contract which a clever mortal can outwit them on. But I think it's only reasonable a Lawful Evil person isn't bound to that degree to follow the law. That's basically the Lawful Evil version of Lawful Stupid. Sarevok's goal is evil and he's trying to be as lawful, or at least be seen as as lawful as possible while carrying it out. That'd be comparable to a Paladin whose goal is good and is trying to be as lawful as possible in carrying it out, but isn't going to devolve into lawful stupid.

 

[rojay]

The only thing good about alignment is that it allows people to argue about things like whether Sarevok is chaotic or lawful evil.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

The only thing good about alignment is that it allows people to argue about things like whether Sarevok is chaotic or lawful evil.

Cried every munchkin who just wants to play Skyrim and be a jack of all trades murderhobo.

Sarevok is Chaotic Evil. Textbook definition. Anyone who disagrees either hasn't read the descriptions of the alignments, or failed their comprehension roll.

Saverok was using lawful methods

He was not. He just wasn't being a grug brain and attacking everyone in sight. He had no respect for the law at all.

Lawful characters work within the law. Serevok did not. He subverted the law to his benefit with lies, murder and sabotage, but that isn't the same thing.

It's the difference between a corrupt tax official who uses his position to extort money from people, and a thug who hires a lawyer to help him get away with murder. The latter is a law breaker regardless, the former is not - not technically, at least.

You might be able to make the argument that he's Neutral Evil, but Sarevok's sheer disregard for the lives of others, even including his lover, sets him firmly in the CE camp. He places his own power and pleasure above everything and everyone else.

He's an "evil for evil's sake" murderer, who wants to have as many people die as possible in order to try and become a god. He's a traitor to his government, his organization and even his own father. He even betrayed and murdered his own mentor in retaliation for helping him escape instead of helping him murder the dukes.

There's nowhere near enough of a gray area here to call him Lawful.

 

[BruceVC]

The only thing good about alignment is that it allows people to argue about things like whether Sarevok is chaotic or lawful evil.

Cried every munchkin who just wants to play Skyrim and be a jack of all trades murderhobo.

Sarevok is Chaotic Evil. Textbook definition. Anyone who disagrees either hasn't read the descriptions of the alignments, or made INT their dump stat.

Saverok was using lawful methods

He was not. He just wasn't being a grug brain and attacking everyone in sight. He had no respect for the law at all.

Lawful characters work within the law. Serevok did not. He subverted the law to his benefit with lies, murder and sabotage, but that isn't the same thing.

It's the difference between a corrupt tax official who uses his position to extort money from people, and a thug who hires a lawyer to help him get away with murder. The latter is a law breaker regardless, the former is not - not technically, at least.

You might be able to make the argument that he's Neutral Evil, but Sarevok's sheer disregard for the lives of others, even including his lover, sets him firmly in the CE camp. He places his own power and pleasure above everything and everyone else.

He's an "evil for evil's sake" murderer, who wants to have as many people die as possible in order to try and become a god. He's a traitor to his government, his organization and even his own father. He even betrayed and murdered his own mentor in retaliation for helping him escape instead of helping him murder the dukes.

There's nowhere near enough of a gray area here to call him Lawful.

Edgy Im just glad we all support redemption themes and I can Romance Viconia without feeling guilty

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Edgy Im just glad we all support redemption themes and I can Romance Viconia without feeling guilty

I would say that disgust, revulsion or the urge to vomit should be a lot higher up on your list of feelings than guilt if the woman you're interested in gives you a detailed description of how she gave a fat guy a blowjob, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Sarathiour]

Explain to me at which point trying to assassinate half of Baldur's gate's governement is even remotly lawful.

 

[BruceVC]

Edgy Im just glad we all support redemption themes and I can Romance Viconia without feeling guilty

I would say that disgust, revulsion or the urge to vomit should be a lot higher up on your list of feelings than guilt if the woman you're interested in gives you a detailed description about how she gave a fat guy a blowjob, but maybe that's just me.

Its funny you mention that part of the Viconia dialogue because she has just raised that and how he died of heart attack

 

[BruceVC]

Explain to me at which point trying to assassinate half of Baldur's gate's governement is even remotly lawful.

The definition of lawful is "conforming to, permitted by, or recognized by law or rules"

And that means the rules could be good or evil according to your interpretation but its follows a structure and adherence to that structure

Which is why Devils and Nine Hells are seen as " lawful " and not like the chaos of the Abyss

 

[Sarathiour]

Assuming your definition of the lawful alignement is even correct, your angle is that assassiantion is "permitted by or recognized by law or rule " ?

 

[Jasede]

Cringe, they're discussing alignment again trying to find out which one Batman is.

 

[BruceVC]

Assuming your definition of the lawful alignement is even correct, your angle is that assassiantion is "permitted by or recognized by law or rule " ?

Yes it is if your set of personal rules allow that

 

[NecroLord]

The only thing good about alignment is that it allows people to argue about things like whether Sarevok is chaotic or lawful evil.

Cried every munchkin who just wants to play Skyrim and be a jack of all trades murderhobo.

Sarevok is Chaotic Evil. Textbook definition. Anyone who disagrees either hasn't read the descriptions of the alignments, or failed their comprehension roll.

Saverok was using lawful methods

He was not. He just wasn't being a grug brain and attacking everyone in sight. He had no respect for the law at all.

Lawful characters work within the law. Serevok did not. He subverted the law to his benefit with lies, murder and sabotage, but that isn't the same thing.

It's the difference between a corrupt tax official who uses his position to extort money from people, and a thug who hires a lawyer to help him get away with murder. The latter is a law breaker regardless, the former is not - not technically, at least.

You might be able to make the argument that he's Neutral Evil, but Sarevok's sheer disregard for the lives of others, even including his lover, sets him firmly in the CE camp. He places his own power and pleasure above everything and everyone else.

He's an "evil for evil's sake" murderer, who wants to have as many people die as possible in order to try and become a god. He's a traitor to his government, his organization and even his own father. He even betrayed and murdered his own mentor in retaliation for helping him escape instead of helping him murder the dukes.

There's nowhere near enough of a gray area here to call him Lawful.

Precisely. He is the very embodiment of chaotic evil. He even went to the Abyss(the plane of Chaotic Evil) after he died. Calling Sarevok "Lawful" is really stretching it.

 

[Average Manatee]

Sarevok's sheer disregard for the lives of others, even including his lover, sets him firmly in the CE camp

No, it just sets him in the evil camp.

He's an "evil for evil's sake" murderer, who wants to have as many people die as possible in order to try and become a god.

These two statements are at odds. If he has a specific goal, then he's not an evil for evil's sake murderer.

Precisely. He is the very embodiment of chaotic evil. He even went to the Abyss(the plane of Chaotic Evil) after he died. Calling Sarevok "Lawful" is really stretching it.

The point is that bioware messed up his alignment in the first place

 

[Nano]

He's literally an agent of chaos. You remember the "chaos will be sewn from their passage" thing? Sarevok is just being smart about it. What, you want him to go on random killing rampages in the street to prove his alignment to you?

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

These two statements are at odds. If he has a specific goal, then he's not an evil for evil's sake murderer.

No, they aren't. Not in Forgotten Realms. Not in 2E. He is doing evil for the sake of becoming an evil deity.

Not "lol so random evilz!" Evil, the concept, which has both substance and power in the setting.

He is murdering to manifest the essence of murder. It is Murder for murder's sake, and evil for evil's sake.

The fact that he has an incentive for it doesn't matter. He's doing it, and it's his nature to do so.

The point is that bioware messed up his alignment in the first place

Nope. Again, you just don't understand the incredibly straightforward alignment system because you're trying to boil it down into a way to classify typical fantasy schlock, instead of a roleplaying and character creation tool that's an integral part of the setting.

He's literally an agent of chaos. You remember the "chaos will be sewn from their passage" thing? Sarevok is just being smart about it. What, you want him to go on random killing rampages in the street to prove his alignment to you?

Chaotic Stupid is the only form of Chaotic Evil they can imagine existing.

This is why Wizards wants to dumb alignments down or remove them. Even older fans don't appreciate it. Everyone either doesn't get it, or just wants to be a murderhobo with no consequences to their character. And it's a real shame.

 

[Average Manatee]

He's literally an agent of chaos. You remember the "chaos will be sewn from their passage" thing? Sarevok is just being smart about it. What, you want him to go on random killing rampages in the street to prove his alignment to you?

So a lawful good protagonist is also actually chaotic because the prophecy says so?

No, they aren't. Not in Forgotten Realms. Not in 2E. He is doing evil for the sake of becoming an evil deity.

Not "lol so random evilz!" Evil, the concept, which has both substance and power in the setting.

He is murdering to manifest the essence of murder. It is Murder for murder's sake, and evil for evil's sake.

The fact that he has an incentive for it doesn't matter. He's doing it, and it's his nature to do so.

So you think lawful evil deities become that way by doing good?

If you are murdering for the sake of expanding your power then you aren't murdering for murder's sake or doing evil for evil's sake. He's not doing it because he likes it (whether he does actually like it is not relevant), he's doing it because he wants to be a god.

Chaotic Stupid is the only form of Chaotic Evil they can imagine existing.

He doesn't have to obey every law. He's obeying the laws that support his position and subverts the laws that get in his way. He has no qualms with breaking laws in circumstances where he won't be caught or the consequences won't hurt him. Sarevok is exactly an iron-fisted tyrant.

Chaotic Evil characters are explicitly opposed to organizational structure. Yes, Chaotic Evil is actually low intelligence.

 

[Sarathiour]

The alignement is designed to be a simple tool to use, and yet, in this post-mordernist world, you can't walk three miles without some retard going "well akschually"

Lawful evil see the law as something necessary to keep the gig running, and as such, will follow custom and order, though his ultimate goal is his own profit. He will try to make contract up to his advantage.

Neutral evil see it as something practical. They allow themselves to cheat and ignore the law, but they need a good reason to do so, because such thing are still convenient.

Chaotic evil are individual who think they are they own justification. It's either because they are too stupid to anticipate consequences, or because they have absolute confidence in themselves. That does not mean that they would not take advantage of people who play "by the book", and they will take advantage of your foolishness for doing so.

 

[Average Manatee]

The in-game quote says that lawful evil characters obey the law out of fear of punishment. That means they'll break laws if it benefits them and they aren't afraid of the punishment.

Chaotic evils, on the other hand, will not obey laws even out of fear of punishment if they think they can benefit.

 

[NecroLord]

For those looking for a very in-depth description of alignments(along with some other things) here is a useful website.
http://easydamus.com/alignment.html
Some of this comes straight from Gygax himself.

 

[Average Manatee]

For those looking for a very in-depth description of alignments(along with some other things) here is a useful website.
http://easydamus.com/alignment.html
Some of this comes straight from Gygax himself.

You can see that the in-game quotes are taken directly from there.

Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.

Not really what Sarevok is doing.

Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.

Definitely describes Sarevok. He's got a plan, man. He's basically a mastermind the way that everything in BG1 comes together at the end to point to him as pulling all the strings.

Usually it is that being's own ends that are to be promoted above all others, but he respects the will of the group and the power and authority of those above him--unless he believes his superiors are not deserving of that position. A lawful evil being is seldom subject to the secular laws of good society in general, as he sees those laws as restrictive and unfair because they deny the worthy their proper place. So-called "good" is seen as a means by which the undeserving are placed and maintained in positions of power, whereas each person should be allotted his place by his leaders according to personal merit. Life is valueless to the lawful evil character; those too weak to defend their possessions and positions don't deserve to have them in the first place.

Another good descriptor of Sarevok. As far as he's concerned he's already the true heir to Bhaal's godhood and is merely claiming what's rightfully his.

He will kill only to advance himself, never for pleasure. A lawful evil character will use poison. He will not help those in need without a reward and he prefers to work with others.

Again, describes Sarevok well. He's not randomly going around killing everyone, he's hunting Bhaalspawn and starting a war that helps him rise in status and power. The fact that he enjoys killing is incidental to this.

Well known lawful evil characters from film or literature include: Darth Vader

Exactly as I said, he's literally just fantasy darth vader.

Granted there's some stupid quotes on lawful evil, like "never breaks a promise or lies", which should be obviously ignored because absolutes are stupid when we're talking about any alignment and is what leads to lawful stupid.

 

[Sarathiour]

The in-game quote says that lawful evil characters obey the law out of fear of punishment. That means they'll break laws if it benefits them and they aren't afraid of the punishment.

Chaotic evils, on the other hand, will not obey laws even out of fear of punishment if they think they can benefit.

"Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the law of society"

Stop making up shit and read what you are quoting.

 

[Average Manatee]

The in-game quote says that lawful evil characters obey the law out of fear of punishment. That means they'll break laws if it benefits them and they aren't afraid of the punishment.

Chaotic evils, on the other hand, will not obey laws even out of fear of punishment if they think they can benefit.

"Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the law of society"

Stop making up shit and read what you are quoting.

Again, that should be considered either lawful stupid or only something that devils which are axiomatically forced 100% lawful evil do (e.g. forced to obey a contract even if a mortal somehow tricked you into 10,000 years of servitude to them).

If we start being lawful stupid like that then every city in D&D would have a form to fill out with the question "Are you evil? Check yes or no" and they'd be able to keep out every lawful evil character. That'd be pretty much as dumb as Paladins who kill people for jaywalking.

Literally the same page says:

A lawful evil being is seldom subject to the secular laws of good society in general, as he sees those laws as restrictive and unfair because they deny the worthy their proper place.

So tell me why he should care about the laws when it comes to a promise when he also doesn't consider himself subject to "good" laws?

(although I will say I am lmaoing at the idea of a lawful evil character complaining that something is "unfair", since a lack of fairness is probably the hallmark of them and they exactly wish to be in the position to abuse laws)

 

[Sarathiour]

You cherry pick some part and outright ignore the rest to conform to your vision.

I'm not even sure Gygax realize himself, but when he refer to lawful as people respecting tradtion and custom, what it means is that such character or people rely on form of authority other than themselves, and allegedly higher. It's implied it's because such character that human themselves can't be trusted to make difficult judgment themselves, and then rely on other authority.