Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Desiderius]

Do you KNOW that NC's build doesn't gain as much as it gives up? Have you taken the time to do a cost-benefit analysis on the build's multiclassing?

You dont need to analyze a pile of turd to determine its shit or not.
His best spellcasting is CL 5 bard. 3x level 2 spells on a lv20 character.
its like a bite trip vivi without trips and meaningful spellcasting and crippled AB.

i dont think i can ever take you seriously if you are defending this garbage. Just looking at this video should be enough to dismiss every single opinion he holds for any game.

Any idea what he was trying to accomplish? I've watched all the NC vids I can stomach. As with InEffect some good ideas, but so many unexamined (and wrong) assumptions it hurts my brain.

 

[Efe]

so you harp on someones criticism asking whether they researched the matter while you havent done anything?
oh and sprinkle it with "oh how internet loves to hate people"

what the fuck?



i dont know what he had in mind but his build is pathfinderization of a fruit salad.

 

[Desiderius]

The funny thing is that when I first started on the Codex I was shit hot on some R4/EA2/Wiz3/AT build and Efe ragged on me ceaselessly.

 

[Sharpedge]

I generally do not bother to look at other people's builds, the fun in playing these games comes from building characters yourself. Pretty much the sole exception to that is Victor Creed, but that is more because he actually plays the game in a very similar fashion to me (he also prefers solo gameplay) and its interesting to see what he does differently to me. He also actually plays the game with those characters and doesn't just sit in the tutorial with some level 20 character.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I like watching Nerd Commando's videos for build ideas.

 

[Lawntoilet]

The funny thing is that when I first started on the Codex I was shit hot on some R4/EA2/Wiz3/AT build and Efe ragged on me ceaselessly.

 

[The_Mask]

I don't watch anyone for builds, I just go: "What if... " and I just do it.

 

[NJClaw]

There's nothing wrong with dipping into many classes as long as the abilities you gain at least make up for, and preferably surpass, the abilities you would gain from staying in your main class.

The knee-jerk reaction of 'LOL this build must suck because he didn't stick to one class' is as retarded as 'take vivi dip on everything'.

I'm not saying that a build that doesn't stick to one class is retarded (I love my Paladin/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight more than a Magus). What I'm saying is that, usually, if you just stick to your class, you can't go wrong. With almost every class you can be sure that, taking 20 levels in it, you will almost always obtain a very strong character (unless you choose features completely at random). However, it's easy to gimp your character if you multiclass without knowing what you are doing. The best example of this is taking levels in a spellcasting class for the first time very late in the game, expecting to do something with low level blasts like Burning Hands at an extremely low caster level.

I've played more Pathfinder than I care to admit and in the past I had an almost autistic passion for character building, but you really don't need that much experience to see that with a "Fighter 4/Magus 3/Monk 2/Ranger 1/Bard 2/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 2/Dragon Disciple 4" you lose more than you would gain sticking a bit more to your classes. Or are you saying that character can be in any way better than a Magus 20, a Bard 20, a Vivisectionist 20 or a Monk 20 (or any of these classes with a short dip in another one, like Vivisectionist 18/Monk 2)?

 

[LannTheStupid]

I think it is a good idea for a challenge run: use 6 NerdCommando builds on Unfair in the standalone Beyond the Stolen Lands.

Hmmm...

With almost every class you can be sure that, taking 20 levels in it, you will almost always obtain a very strong character

Isn't a Barbarian an exception to this rule? Especially if that Barbarian is Amiri?

 

[Yosharian]

There's nothing wrong with dipping into many classes as long as the abilities you gain at least make up for, and preferably surpass, the abilities you would gain from staying in your main class.

The knee-jerk reaction of 'LOL this build must suck because he didn't stick to one class' is as retarded as 'take vivi dip on everything'.

I'm not saying that a build that doesn't stick to one class is retarded (I love my Paladin/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight more than a Magus). What I'm saying is that, usually, if you just stick to your class, you can't go wrong. With almost every class you can be sure that, taking 20 levels in it, you will almost always obtain a very strong character (unless you choose features completely at random). However, it's easy to gimp your character if you multiclass without knowing what you are doing. The best example of this is taking levels in a spellcasting class for the first time very late in the game, expecting to do something with low level blasts like Burning Hands at an extremely low caster level.

I've played more Pathfinder than I care to admit and in the past I had an almost autistic passion for character building, but you really don't need that much experience to see that with a "Fighter 4/Magus 3/Monk 2/Ranger 1/Bard 2/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 2/Dragon Disciple 4" you lose more than you would gain sticking a bit more to your classes. Or are you saying that character can be in any way better than a Magus 20, a Bard 20, a Vivisectionist 20 or a Monk 20 (or any of these classes with a short dip in another one, like Vivisectionist 18/Monk 2)?

Yeah OK I can agree with that

 

[NJClaw]

With almost every class you can be sure that, taking 20 levels in it, you will almost always obtain a very strong character

Isn't a Barbarian an exception to this rule? Especially if that Barbarian is Amiri?

I have finished the game on Hard with Amiri as a Barbarian 20. And, if you still feel the need to look at premade builds for anything more than new ideas for a character, you really shouldn't play on higher difficulties.

I think it is a good idea for a challenge run: use 6 NerdCommando builds on Unfair in the standalone Beyond the Stolen Lands.

At least judging from videos titles, most of his builds could work. There's a Vivisectionist 20, a Monk 1/Paladin 2/Magus 13/Dragon Disciple 4, a Freebooter 20, a Cleric 20, a Sylvan Sorcerer 20 and a Paladin 20 (and I haven't seen them all). I can't find a proper Bard, but you can't have everything. Also, none of them has Shatter Defenses, but maybe he doesn't want to trivialize AC.

 

[guestposting]

Nerd Commando literally hadn’t played the game past the prologue when he made these clickbait builds. Pure theorycrafting was fine in September 2018, but at this point, c’mon.

 

[Ontopoly]

You guys over think this. I just put up no poison spell on my guys then all poison spells on their guys

 

[Desiderius]

You guys over think this. I just put up no poison spell on my guys then all poison spells on their guys

That's what InEffect does. He told me that that's why buffing and debuffing are a waste of time. It's also colossally stupid.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Nerd Commando literally hadn’t played the game past the prologue when he made these clickbait builds. Pure theorycrafting was fine in September 2018, but at this point, c’mon.

I have some news for you about theorycrafting and 3.5...

 

[Desiderius]

Classes with a lot of abilities that are based on your level in the class (like Barb) seem weak until you actually try them a high levels (Inquisitor is the best example of this) then they blow you away.

This is a Tank Barb16 I tested for Amiri before I really knew what I was doing:

Ended up being very solid. Eight attax with Pounce and Improved Uncanny Dodge with that AC made her great for opening combat.

 

[Xamenos]

1) Newbie: 20 levels of my main class is what I'm gonna do. It's the default for a reason, right?

I wish.

Newbie: I'd better look up some builds online. Wow, five splashes, really? I guess on a game this hard you've really gotta minmax to survive. Proceeds to suck so badly he's scarred for life and writes another Steam review for Gregz to bitch about.

Well, yes, but I was talking about their instincts without outside interference. Those multiclass abominations look impressive to newbies precisely because it's not something they'd have made themselves, and they figure there's a good reason for that.

 

[Pink Eye]

There's nothing wrong with dipping into many classes as long as the abilities you gain at least make up for, and preferably surpass, the abilities you would gain from staying in your main class.

The knee-jerk reaction of 'LOL this build must suck because he didn't stick to one class' is as retarded as 'take vivi dip on everything'.

I at least never said that, just that it is overcomplicating things for little to no reward, and that it rarely does gain as much as you give up in the builds people cite (like NC).
But again, it is fun and it's part of the game.

Do you KNOW that NC's build doesn't gain as much as it gives up? Have you taken the time to do a cost-benefit analysis on the build's multiclassing?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that people took one look at it and dismissed it out of hand. I'm not saying that NC's builds are perfect, or even great, but he does have good ideas sometimes.

People just love to hate on other people's work. Even InEffect, aka Mr Dip Vivisectionist On Every Class, has some good insights, and his builds can be useful starting points to develop your own. And I've got no love for InEffect, he's an egotistical asshole.

>Have you taken the time to do a cost-benefit analysis on the build's multiclassing?
Yeah I did. Here are my thoughts on NC's build:

>Fighter 4
Four Fighter gives you access to a total of three additional feats(Mostly combat feats, but still useful for martial based characters like monks.) Four levels of Fighter also allows access to weapon specialization which may or may not be important to you. Armor Training is also good if you plan to don heavy armor. As it increases how much DEX to AC gets added when wearing heavy armor. Of course, at that point, if you care about DEX penalty from heavy armor. You're better off investing more levels into Fighter instead of just the four. Bravery on the other hand gets completely outclassed by remove fear. Also, if you invested more levels you would have gotten access to advanced fighter feats and weapon training.

>monk 2
I hate this so much. You're devaluing the awesomeness of monk. Sure, investing one or two levels is fine. One level nets you the ability to convert mental stat to AC. Another level grants you a monk bonus feat. But come on. Have you played Kingmaker? 70+ AC is overkill. Even on Unfair... You can get by with heavy armor + shield + Perfection(Longsword) + accessories. Just fine. Here's the problem, at every four levels of monk you get an additional AC point that stacks with other AC bonuses. On top of that you also get KI Powers. Monk bonus feats. And Unarmed Passives(Only matters if you're playing an unarmed build though... Which.. If you're playing a monk, you better be playing an unarmed build. Weapons are anathema!) Not to mention you're also ruining your flurry of blows progression. Dipping 11 levels is fine. 16 levels if you care about unarmed.

>Vivisectionist 2
One sneak attack die, one bonus feat, but you get access to a buff that stacks with all stat bonuses. However, in Kingmaker you can easily raise stats beyond 20. So is the buff really worth it? Do you really need it? You can already one shot enemies as is on Unfair with a competently built martial. Moving along, the one sneak attack die isn't worth it in the long run, because it only does 1d-6. That's only 1-6 damage. Chip damage. The bonus feat on the other hand is nice. Feats are power in Pathfinder. They're what truly differentiates your build. Stat optimization pales in comparison to them. But with all that said, you're better off dipping at least 3-4 levels instead. Why? You're at least getting a couple more sneak attack die and two additional feats. Those two feats are nice for martial characters because you can pick the feat that allows you to negate the chances of suffering a critical hit.

>Stalwart Defender 2
Stalwart Defender is a very good class. One of the BEST classes for heavy armor users, and even monks too. It gives access to dodge bonuses, AC stance, DR, and Uncanny Dodge. If you're looking for an alternative besides monk dipping, then look into this class. It's very good. However, dipping just two levels is so insignificant that it isn't worth it. Nine levels is usually the sweet spot for me.

>Ranger 1
I don't really understand this one. If you're picking this for the pet, you're fucking yourself over. Unless you pick the feat that allows you still gain pet levels. However, level one freebooter is okay for stacking buff. But then again, if you care about that, you would dip more levels instead of just one. Can't really see the point in dipping in other classes. Because you're not getting anything in Flamewarden or Stormwalker besides an additional feat..... Better off spent in something else...

>Magus 3/Bard 2/Dragon Disciple 4
I don't really understand these remaining ones. Mainly because you're butchering spell progression. Bard is CHA based. Magus can be CHA, but is mostly INT based. And Dragon Disciple can still continue spell progression. But which base are you going to pick? Bard or Magus? Why not just go 5 Magus then have spell progression continue with DD? I am not familiar with these ones. Perhaps someone can clarify.

>Elephant in the Room
BAB of course is going to be bothersome. But that can be easily fixed with all kinds of ways. The main problem is that the build is too far spread that it is getting nothing. Here's the problem. Pathfinder incentives long term investment. It discourages level 1-2 dippers. When you're multi classing or dipping. You first have to have a base. For me that is monk. Then you need to figure how many levels you're going to sacrifice. For me that is pretty easy. I don't care about the last level in monk. I also don't care about the last four levels either. If I really want to power game I can just stop at 11 levels in monk. From there I then go about spending the levels in ways that make my monk more capable than what he could have gained from staying pure. Which is easy, because pure monk doesn't get much. The entire point of multiclassing, in my opinion, is that you're trading mediocre features and abilities for something else that is far better and stronger.

That isn't to say that pure is bad. Lots of classes benefit from staying pure. Such as Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue. It's all about opportunity cost and trade offs.

 

[Pink Eye]

>And I've got no love for InEffect, he's an egotistical asshole.
He's not any different from your guys Baldur's Gate blogger. But meh. I liked talking to Ineffect, he at least plays Kingmaker.

 

[Rat King]

There's nothing wrong with dipping into many classes as long as the abilities you gain at least make up for, and preferably surpass, the abilities you would gain from staying in your main class.

The knee-jerk reaction of 'LOL this build must suck because he didn't stick to one class' is as retarded as 'take vivi dip on everything'.

I at least never said that, just that it is overcomplicating things for little to no reward, and that it rarely does gain as much as you give up in the builds people cite (like NC).
But again, it is fun and it's part of the game.

Do you KNOW that NC's build doesn't gain as much as it gives up? Have you taken the time to do a cost-benefit analysis on the build's multiclassing?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that people took one look at it and dismissed it out of hand. I'm not saying that NC's builds are perfect, or even great, but he does have good ideas sometimes.

People just love to hate on other people's work. Even InEffect, aka Mr Dip Vivisectionist On Every Class, has some good insights, and his builds can be useful starting points to develop your own. And I've got no love for InEffect, he's an egotistical asshole.

>Have you taken the time to do a cost-benefit analysis on the build's multiclassing?
Yeah I did. Here are my thoughts on NC's build:

>Fighter 4
Four Fighter gives you access to a total of three additional feats(Mostly combat feats, but still useful for martial based characters like monks.) Four levels of Fighter also allows access to weapon specialization which may or may not be important to you. Armor Training is also good if you plan to don heavy armor. As it increases how much DEX to AC gets added when wearing heavy armor. Of course, at that point, if you care about DEX penalty from heavy armor. You're better off investing more levels into Fighter instead of just the four. Bravery on the other hand gets completely outclassed by remove fear. Also, if you invested more levels you would have gotten access to advanced fighter feats and weapon training.

>monk 2
I hate this so much. You're devaluing the awesomeness of monk. Sure, investing one or two levels is fine. One level nets you the ability to convert mental stat to AC. Another level grants you a monk bonus feat. But come on. Have you played Kingmaker? 70+ AC is overkill. Even on Unfair... You can get by with heavy armor + shield + Perfection(Longsword) + accessories. Just fine. Here's the problem, at every four levels of monk you get an additional AC point that stacks with other AC bonuses. On top of that you also get KI Powers. Monk bonus feats. And Unarmed Passives(Only matters if you're playing an unarmed build though... Which.. If you're playing a monk, you better be playing an unarmed build. Weapons are anathema!) Not to mention you're also ruining your flurry of blows progression. Dipping 11 levels is fine. 16 levels if you care about unarmed.

>Vivisectionist 2
One sneak attack die, one bonus feat, but you get access to a buff that stacks with all stat bonuses. However, in Kingmaker you can easily raise stats beyond 20. So is the buff really worth it? Do you really need it? You can already one shot enemies as is on Unfair with just a competently build martial. Moving along, the one sneak attack die isn't worth it in the long run, because it only does 1d-6. That's only 1-6 damage. Chip damage. The bonus feat on the other hand is nice. Feats are power in Pathfinder. They're what truly differentiates your build. Stat optimization pales in comparison to them. But with all that said, you're better off dipping at least 3-4 levels instead. Why? You're at getting a couple more sneak attack die and two additional feats. Those two feats are nice for martial characters because you can pick the feat that allows you to negate the chances of suffering a critical hit.

>Stalwart Defender 2
Stalwart Defender is a very good class. One of the BEST classes for heavy armor users, and even monks too. It gives access to dodge bonuses, AC stance, DR, and Uncanny Dodge. If you're looking for an alternative besides monk dipping, then look into this class. It's very good. However, dipping just two levels is so insignificant that it isn't worth it. Nine levels is usually the sweet spot for me.

>Ranger 1
I don't really understand this one. If you're picking this for the pet, you're fucking yourself over. Unless you pick the feat that allows you still gain pet levels. However, level one freebooter is okay for stacking buff. But then again, if you care about, you would dip more levels instead of just one. Can't really see the point in dipping in other classes. Because you're not getting anything in Flamewarden or Stormwalker besides an additional feat..... Better off spent in something else...

>Magus 3/Bard 2/Dragon Disciple 4
I don't really understand these remaining ones. Mainly because you're butchering spell progression. Bard is CHA based. Magus can be CHA, but is mostly INT based. And Dragon Disciple can still continue spell progression. But which base are you going to pick? Bard or Magus? Why not just go 5 Magus then have spell progression continue with DD? I am not familiar with these ones. Perhaps someone can clarify.

>Elephant in the Room
BAB of course is going to be bothersome. But that can be easily fixed with all kinds of ways. The main problem is that the build is too far spread that it is getting nothing. Here's the problem, Pathfinder incentives long term investment. It disencourages level 1-2 dippers. When you're multi classing or dipping. You first have to have a base. For me that is monk. Then you need to figure how many levels you're going to sacrifice. For me that is pretty easy. I don't care about the last level in monk. I also don't care about the last four levels either. If I really want to power game I can just stop at 11 levels in monk. From there I then go about spending the levels in ways that make my monk more capable than what he could have gained from staying pure. Which is easy, because pure monk doesn't get much. The entire point of multiclassing, in my opinion, is that you're trading mediocre features and abilities for something else that is far better and stronger.

That isn't to say that pure is bad. Lots of classes benefit from staying pure. Such as Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue. It's all about opportunity cost and trade offs.

He took a dip in so many classes but not paladin? Ok then.

 

[NJClaw]

>Ranger 1
I don't really understand this one. If you're picking this for the pet, you're fucking yourself over. Unless you pick the feat that allows you still gain pet levels. However, level one freebooter is okay for stacking buff. But then again, if you care about, you would dip more levels instead of just one. Can't really see the point in dipping in other classes. Because you're not getting anything in Flamewarden or Stormwalker besides an additional feat..... Better off spent in something else...

He REALLY wanted that Favored Enemy: Fey.

>Magus 3/Bard 2/Dragon Disciple 4
I don't really understand these remaining ones. Mainly because you're butchering spell progression. Bard is CHA based. Magus can be CHA, but is mostly INT based. And Dragon Disciple can still continue spell progression. But which base are you going to pick? Bard or Magus? Why not just go 5 Magus then have spell progression continue with DD? I am not familiar with these ones. Perhaps someone can clarify.

I think he just wanted to throw in as many classes as possible, without caring too much about the actual optimization of the character.

 

[Pink Eye]

>He REALLY wanted that Favored Enemy: Fey.
If you cared about favored enemy. You would have invested more levels.

 

[LannTheStupid]

One very nice youtuber (whom you cannot watch, because his clips are in Russian only) created a 7 level character with 0 BAB. It was kind of hilarious.

 

[Xamenos]

One very nice youtuber (whom you cannot watch, because his clips are in Russian only) created a 7 level character with 0 BAB. It was kind of hilarious.

I've seen something similar happen in PnP. The guy was adamant he could get all important benefits of each class with just 1 level. He was upset when he inevitably died. I was glad when we stopped inviting him.

 

[NJClaw]

>He REALLY wanted that Favored Enemy: Fey.
If you cared about favored enemy. You would have invested more levels.

I agree, but, as I said before, I think that's just an experiment to try a character as multiclassed as possible that can still finish the game.