Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Desiderius]

if i understood correctly he just makes videos of someone elses builds and doesnt actually play them.

He is indeed playing them on his Twitch streams. However, at least for the last year every "companion build" starts from total respec (using a mod), and then he sometimes adds other modded feats here and there. Personally, I do not consider them even Kingmaker builds, let alone companion ones. But to each his own.

His build vids he just chooses Feats, Skills, and Spells at random as if those don't matter when they're the whole meat and potatoes of the game. He'll highlight a Feat here and there if it's crucial to the concept but that's about it.

 

[Lawntoilet]

So for my fellow alpha chads, what are your favorite Mythic feats so far? I haven't really dug into the feat chains for them yet, just kinda picked what looked fun and didn't care about optimizing as much as when I was picking my "normal" feats.
I like the extra spells for my Magus, although I think the extended spells may be as good or better.
For a melee martial, the teleport-to-a-caster one is thematically cool, and strong.
The one that steals the "shield bonus to TAC" from TSS fighter is probably decent, TAC hasn't been a huge issue so far but I gave it to Seelah anyway.
I don't know what to think of Unstoppable (I think it's called) - it seems mediocre to me after you get Freedom of Movement, but I didn't check to see if it unlocks a feat chain leading to something better.

 

[Desiderius]

All newbs should start here:

His builds are thematic, but incomplete. And I am in InEffect non-team anyway.

That's ideal. Completing them gets newbs in the habit of thinking for themselves then they're hooked.

 

[Desiderius]

So for my fellow alpha chads, what are your favorite Mythic feats so far? I haven't really dug into the feat chains for them yet, just kinda picked what looked fun and didn't care about optimizing as much as when I was picking my "normal" feats.
I like the extra spells for my Magus, although I think the extended spells may be as good or better.
For a melee martial, the teleport-to-a-caster one is thematically cool, and strong.
The one that steals the "shield bonus to TAC" from TSS fighter is probably decent, TAC hasn't been a huge issue so far but I gave it to Seelah anyway.
I don't know what to think of Unstoppable (I think it's called) - it seems mediocre to me after you get Freedom of Movement, but I didn't check to see if it unlocks a feat chain leading to something better.

Trickster.

Not close.

 

[toroks]

I should just mention (in case anyone was tempted ) that apparently the main chunk of gorgonzola that NC's Universal Soldier 2 build was built around - the exploit of being able to use quarterstaff/flurry of blows along with crane wing - was patched out, crane wing now absolutely requires a free hand.

Crane Wing got patched in the Alpha!?

 

[gurugeorge]

I should just mention (in case anyone was tempted ) that apparently the main chunk of gorgonzola that NC's Universal Soldier 2 build was built around - the exploit of being able to use quarterstaff/flurry of blows along with crane wing - was patched out, crane wing now absolutely requires a free hand.

Crane Wing got patched in the Alpha!?

Blimey, well I don't know, maybe it's one of those things that breaks/gets fixed as a byproduct of other fixes.

 

[toroks]

I should just mention (in case anyone was tempted ) that apparently the main chunk of gorgonzola that NC's Universal Soldier 2 build was built around - the exploit of being able to use quarterstaff/flurry of blows along with crane wing - was patched out, crane wing now absolutely requires a free hand.

Crane Wing got patched in the Alpha!?

Blimey, well I don't know, maybe it's one of those things that breaks/gets fixed as a byproduct of other fixes.

Okay! just wanted to make sure you were talking about the alpha and not Kingmaker (because there it's still broken). Lots of munchkin builds will have to be redone then

 

[Lawntoilet]

Trickster.

Not close.

What are some specific feats though? I'm playing LG presently but I'm interested in rolling with a Viking-type Barb Trickster at some point.

 

[Ontopoly]

So Queen Galfrey is, like, Putin on literal steroids? I wonder if it will be possible to kill her or to force her to stop taking those drugs...

Also, is it possible to destroy the church of Iomedae? Or Iomedae itself?

There are 4chan leaks from digging into the .json files, Pink Eye is probably more knowledgeable than I am about this but

Spoiler

I am pretty sure you can get Galfrey to stop taking the drugs and I also think you can kill her.
I don't think you can kill Iomedae but if you go Swarm path boy oh boy does she hate your guts, and she seems to consider you a threat.

They found an image of her looking really old too So whether it's just the way the game plays out Or through character choice, that's going to happen.

 

[Desiderius]

Trickster.

Not close.

What are some specific feats though? I'm playing LG presently but I'm interested in rolling with a Viking-type Barb Trickster at some point.

You shall see, young Jedi.

 

[Desiderius]

As for general mythic feats, Second Mystery Nature to get a mount to carry around Daeran's Staggered ass is pretty sweet.

 

[Yosharian]

There's nothing wrong with dipping into many classes as long as the abilities you gain at least make up for, and preferably surpass, the abilities you would gain from staying in your main class.

The knee-jerk reaction of 'LOL this build must suck because he didn't stick to one class' is as retarded as 'take vivi dip on everything'.

 

[Desiderius]

There's nothing wrong with dipping into many classes as long as the abilities you gain at least make up for, and preferably surpass, the abilities you would gain from staying in your main class.

The knee-jerk reaction of 'LOL this build must suck because he didn't stick to one class' is as retarded as 'take vivi dip on everything'.

The problem is that you understand opportunity costs and they don't.

 

[Lawntoilet]

There's nothing wrong with dipping into many classes as long as the abilities you gain at least make up for, and preferably surpass, the abilities you would gain from staying in your main class.

The knee-jerk reaction of 'LOL this build must suck because he didn't stick to one class' is as retarded as 'take vivi dip on everything'.

I at least never said that, just that it is overcomplicating things for little to no reward, and that it rarely does gain as much as you give up in the builds people cite (like NC).
But again, it is fun and it's part of the game.

 

[Yosharian]

There's nothing wrong with dipping into many classes as long as the abilities you gain at least make up for, and preferably surpass, the abilities you would gain from staying in your main class.

The knee-jerk reaction of 'LOL this build must suck because he didn't stick to one class' is as retarded as 'take vivi dip on everything'.

I at least never said that, just that it is overcomplicating things for little to no reward, and that it rarely does gain as much as you give up in the builds people cite (like NC).
But again, it is fun and it's part of the game.

Do you KNOW that NC's build doesn't gain as much as it gives up? Have you taken the time to do a cost-benefit analysis on the build's multiclassing?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that people took one look at it and dismissed it out of hand. I'm not saying that NC's builds are perfect, or even great, but he does have good ideas sometimes.

People just love to hate on other people's work. Even InEffect, aka Mr Dip Vivisectionist On Every Class, has some good insights, and his builds can be useful starting points to develop your own. And I've got no love for InEffect, he's an egotistical asshole.

 

[Desiderius]

My main concern is that miniChad default is still monk/Vivi dip broken/mandatory. It would be better for pure class to be default (again, that was the design of the ruleset) with people coming up with different splashes based on specific needs after getting a feel for things like the action economy of the class and what sort of things you have trouble with.

 

[Yosharian]

If it was the design of the ruleset, then they failed hard when they made ONE LEVEL of Monk grant WIS/CHA bonus to AC. Same with Paladin saves. Both of those abilities should have a class level cap, just like Canny Defense.

Kingmaker's design should share a lot of the blame too, since they gave Rogue Talents, in particular Combat Trick, to classes that shouldn't get them, and made Robes + Bracers far better than Armor. That's Owlcat's faulty itemization and class balance.

That said, I don't particularly mind it since it appeals to the optimizer in me. But it does make the 'best' builds all look similar to each other.

 

[Yosharian]

I pretty much know I'm on the right track when LannTheStupid disagrees with what I've said

 

[Desiderius]

My first 2,000 hours in I agreed with you. Those things only get high enough to matter if you’re stacking WIS/CHR high, which is a corner case that doesn’t apply to most of those builds. Additionally all you’re talking about is defense, which doesn’t always matter that much.

Sacrificing your highest level or three for a few defense points turns out to be pretty bad except maybe for a few levels early before the gear and buffs kick in. And on those levels you don’t have the busted robes and bracers you’re basing your armor sux arguments on.

 

[Xamenos]

Do you KNOW that NC's build doesn't gain as much as it gives up? Have you taken the time to do a cost-benefit analysis on the build's multiclassing?

The path to Pathfinder System Mastery is something like:

1) Newbie: 20 levels of my main class is what I'm gonna do. It's the default for a reason, right?
2) Wannabe Optimizer: Single classes are for newbies. I'm not a newbie. All my characters should have a class dip. Always and without exception.
3) True System Mastery: Sometimes a single class works best. Sometimes a dip or two is worth it. I know what I'm doing and I'm not afraid to recommend a class 20 build just because it looks like a newbie build.

Nine times out of ten when I see a rando with a multiple-2-level-dip abomination, it's someone stuck on #2 who can't even imagine this not being the correct choice. There's no reasoning with them, and it's a waste of effort to go through every single one to prove that yes, he doesn't know what he's talking about either.

I surmise there are two reasons this is so prevalent in Pathfinder:
One, they learned about optimization from the truly great optimizers who wrote the first guides for pnp 3.5 more than a decade ago. 3.5 was the first DnD version that catered to this kind of autism, and one that encouraged excessive class dipping to boot. Paizo, in their infinite wisdom, sought to keep the autism while doing away with the multiclassing, and they largely succeeded. Unfortunately, the idiots I'm talking about copied the results of the guides without any actual understanding of the thinking that went into them. And so they can't understand the their basic assumptions might not work the same in a different system.
And two, their desire to look smart outweighs their actual smarts. A multiclass character looks impressive if you don't know better. And that's all that matters to them.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Western rage against much smarter Russians (like InEffect) is delicious to behold.

 

[Efe]

Do you KNOW that NC's build doesn't gain as much as it gives up? Have you taken the time to do a cost-benefit analysis on the build's multiclassing?

You dont need to analyze a pile of turd to determine its shit or not.
His best spellcasting is CL 5 bard. 3x level 2 spells on a lv20 character.
its like a bite trip vivi without trips and meaningful spellcasting and crippled AB.

i dont think i can ever take you seriously if you are defending this garbage. Just looking at this video should be enough to dismiss every single opinion he holds for any game.

 

[Desiderius]

Western rage against much smarter Russians (like InEffect) is delicious to behold.

InEffect is Russian?

There goes my Russophilia. I'll always have Chekov tho.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm not defending it per se, I haven't watched the video so I don't know what he's going for.

 

[Desiderius]

1) Newbie: 20 levels of my main class is what I'm gonna do. It's the default for a reason, right?

I wish.

Newbie: I'd better look up some builds online. Wow, five splashes, really? I guess on a game this hard you've really gotta minmax to survive. Proceeds to suck so badly he's scarred for life and writes another Steam review for Gregz to bitch about.