Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[amurath]

There are at least 4 guys in this thread significantly better at builds than Nerd Commando.

As I see it, there are two basic build philosophies: theoretical min-maxing and practical min-maxing. You can build for a perfectly min-maxed character, squeezing every possible drop of juice out of the system by lvl 20, preparing the ground for it with earlier choices; or you can build so that the game is enjoyable at early to mid levels, where most people spend most time playing the game anyway. NC builds for the latter, so I can see how his builds might be abhorrent to people who follow the first philosophy.

e.g. he'll often point out, "Sure, you can build it THIS way and have an absolute beast by lvl 20, but how much time are you going to be spending playing the game at lvl 18-20?"

I disagree. It seems to me like NerdCommando just leveled his builds to lvl 20 in the prologue to test them, without even playing Act 1 or 2 with them. They're OK, but not amazing, which is not surprising since he made them right after the game came out. On the other hand, InEffect's builds definitely show strong knowledge of how the whole game plays. There's a reason why so many of his builds start with Monk 1/Vivi 1, for example, since those dips are super powerful early game but may not be necessary or even desirable at lvl 20.

 

[Ninjerk]

You guys can take it up with the man himself. NC is Pope Amole II.

 

[gurugeorge]

There are at least 4 guys in this thread significantly better at builds than Nerd Commando.

As I see it, there are two basic build philosophies: theoretical min-maxing and practical min-maxing. You can build for a perfectly min-maxed character, squeezing every possible drop of juice out of the system by lvl 20, preparing the ground for it with earlier choices; or you can build so that the game is enjoyable at early to mid levels, where most people spend most time playing the game anyway. NC builds for the latter, so I can see how his builds might be abhorrent to people who follow the first philosophy.

e.g. he'll often point out, "Sure, you can build it THIS way and have an absolute beast by lvl 20, but how much time are you going to be spending playing the game at lvl 18-20?"

I disagree. It seems to me like NerdCommando just leveled his builds to lvl 20 in the prologue to test them, without even playing Act 1 or 2 with them. They're OK, but not amazing, which is not surprising since he made them right after the game came out. On the other hand, InEffect's builds definitely show strong knowledge of how the whole game plays. There's a reason why so many of his builds start with Monk 1/Vivi 1, for example, since those dips are super powerful early game but may not be necessary or even desirable at lvl 20.

IIRC a fair number of NC's builds use the same trick. I honestly don't see much difference between NC's and InEffect's builds, and I've used and enjoyed some of both, as well as some of the builds people have posted here.

But I bow to you guys' greater experience, you might be right.

 

[Lawntoilet]

IIRC a fair number of NC's builds use the same trick. I honestly don't see much difference between NC's and InEffect's builds, and I've used and enjoyed some of both, as well as some of the builds people have posted here.

But I bow to you guys' greater experience, you might be right.

I mean it's not like they're terrible, I just think they're mostly overthinking things. Same goes for a number of InEffect's builds.
I understand the impulse because it was much more necessary in 3.5e, and it can be fun to do, but you can be equally or more effective with less multiclassing. Probably more effective, and certainly less fiddly.

 

[Xamenos]

There are at least 4 guys in this thread significantly better at builds than Nerd Commando.

As I see it, there are two basic build philosophies: theoretical min-maxing and practical min-maxing. You can build for a perfectly min-maxed character, squeezing every possible drop of juice out of the system by lvl 20, preparing the ground for it with earlier choices; or you can build so that the game is enjoyable at early to mid levels, where most people spend most time playing the game anyway. NC builds for the latter, so I can see how his builds might be abhorrent to people who follow the first philosophy.

e.g. he'll often point out, "Sure, you can build it THIS way and have an absolute beast by lvl 20, but how much time are you going to be spending playing the game at lvl 18-20?"

No. The difference is between people who actually understand the system and people who only think they understand the system. InEffect and Nerd Commando, if that abominable "Universal Soldier" build is anything to judge him by, are very much the latter.

 

[NJClaw]

I really haven't watched anything from this guy, but that "Fighter 4/Magus 3/Monk 2/Ranger 1/Bard 2/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 2/Dragon Disciple 4" clearly is an attempt to throw as many classes as possible into the same build and still obtain a functioning character that you can finish the game with. And, honestly, I think it works.

However, usually, taking 20 levels in a single class is more than enough to finish the game on any difficulty. For martial classes, the occasional 2 to 4 levels dip can sometimes be beneficial, but far from essential. Take the famous Haplo's tripper build (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...aker-builds-and-strats-thread.124160/page-113): it's a Vivisectionist 12/Monk 1/Sword Saint 1/Archeologist 2/Dragon Disciple 4, but it works even as a simple Vivisectionist 20. Starting from that, then you can complicate it as much as you want (the best one, according to my taste, is just something like Vivisectionist 18/Monk 2).

 

[amurath]

I really haven't watched anything from this guy, but that "Fighter 4/Magus 3/Monk 2/Ranger 1/Bard 2/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 2/Dragon Disciple 4" clearly is an attempt to throw as many classes as possible into the same build and still obtain a functioning character that you can finish the game with. And, honestly, I think it works.

However, usually, taking 20 levels in a single class is more than enough to finish the game on any difficulty. For martial classes, the occasional 2 to 4 levels dip can sometimes be beneficial, but far from essential. Take the famous Haplo's tripper build (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...aker-builds-and-strats-thread.124160/page-113): it's a Vivisectionist 12/Monk 1/Sword Saint 1/Archeologist 2/Dragon Disciple 4, but it works even as a simple Vivisectionist 20. Starting from that, then you can complicate it as much as you want (the best one, according to my taste, is just something like Vivisectionist 18/Monk 2).

I completely agree with you on that last point. I actually prefer Vivi 16/Pala 2/Monk 2 for the optimal combination of buffs, defense and offense.

 

[gurugeorge]

I should just mention (in case anyone was tempted ) that apparently the main chunk of gorgonzola that NC's Universal Soldier 2 build was built around - the exploit of being able to use quarterstaff/flurry of blows along with crane wing - was patched out, crane wing now absolutely requires a free hand.

 

[Desiderius]

hows enemy variety? i expect ranger would be very easy to play with favored enemy bonus working on everything.

Lets just say all that Evil Outsider stuff from P:K that didn't have much use is almost always on, judging by the Alpha. My main in the Alpha had Hunter's Bond - Outsiders and I activated it before pretty much every battle.

 

[Desiderius]

I should just mention (in case anyone was tempted ) that apparently the main chunk of gorgonzola that NC's Universal Soldier 2 build was built around - the exploit of being able to use quarterstaff/flurry of blows along with crane wing - was patched out, crane wing now absolutely requires a free hand.

Nothing about Crane Wing is close to broken. Still glad they got it working as intended finally to keep everyone from gimping their builds.

 

[LannTheStupid]

There are 4chan leaks from digging into the .json files

Now see 1 redeeming quality of voting for rats.

1. Become a rat.
2. Become the swarm-of-rats-that-walks.
3. Eat Queen Galfrey alive.

 

[Desiderius]

I really haven't watched anything from this guy, but that "Fighter 4/Magus 3/Monk 2/Ranger 1/Bard 2/Vivisectionist 2/Stalwart Defender 2/Dragon Disciple 4" clearly is an attempt to throw as many classes as possible into the same build and still obtain a functioning character that you can finish the game with. And, honestly, I think it works.

However, usually, taking 20 levels in a single class is more than enough to finish the game on any difficulty. For martial classes, the occasional 2 to 4 levels dip can sometimes be beneficial, but far from essential. Take the famous Haplo's tripper build (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...aker-builds-and-strats-thread.124160/page-113): it's a Vivisectionist 12/Monk 1/Sword Saint 1/Archeologist 2/Dragon Disciple 4, but it works even as a simple Vivisectionist 20. Starting from that, then you can complicate it as much as you want (the best one, according to my taste, is just something like Vivisectionist 18/Monk 2).

I completely agree with you on that last point. I actually prefer Vivi 16/Pala 2/Monk 2 for the optimal combination of buffs, defense and offense.

The irony is that straight Vivi is pretty damn good thanks to Grand Mutagen, Advanced Rogue Talents, and Sixth lvl spells, but the dip is expectedly bad due to the fact that meaningful stats scale to 50 so a couple points here and there is not that big of a deal.

 

[Desiderius]

The difference is between people who actually understand the system and people who only think they understand the system. InEffect and Nerd Commando, if that abominable "Universal Soldier" build is anything to judge him by, are very much the latter.

They both think in terms of solo builds because of course that's the only thing that counts for powergamers. At least InEffect thinks about the whole game. Far as I can tell NC just thinks up a general concept then fills in the details randomly. Same with the Bible verse dude.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Spoiler alert: Mr. NerdCommando AKA Pope Amole II never played Kingmaker properly. However, his videos were released during the first day after release and, by his own admission, are the most profitable build clips on his channel.

 

[Desiderius]

Nope, the way I look at it, she's a death machine who also happens to be a Swiss Army knife at the same time. (Mind you, I only play on Challenging, with the turn based mod.)

It's the biggest missed opportunty in the game - you don't even get Hurricane Bow. In fact its a copy-pasted base Magus with the only difference being using a bow, which is embarrassing since alot of the Magus abilities are melee-based.

And it's still pretty damned strong straight up since Ranged is so good (more full attacks) as is Magus Arcana. And the spells have nice utility.

I much prefer ranged Eldritch Scoundrel, but that's my favorite MC so its a high bar and EA plays similarly.

 

[NJClaw]

I should just mention (in case anyone was tempted ) that apparently the main chunk of gorgonzola that NC's Universal Soldier 2 build was built around - the exploit of being able to use quarterstaff/flurry of blows along with crane wing - was patched out, crane wing now absolutely requires a free hand.

Nothing about Crane Wing is close to broken. Still glad they got it working as intended finally to keep everyone from gimping their builds.

Unless I'm missing something, Crane Wing still works with two-handed weapons. Here I'm using a quarterstaf and still getting the bonus:

Spoiler

 

[LannTheStupid]

As of version 2.0.8, Crane Wing also works with sword and shield. Which makes Aldori Defender with a shield and a dueling sword even more ... interesting.

 

[Xamenos]

Same with the Bible verse dude.

Literally who?

Spoiler alert: Mr. NerdCommando AKA Pope Amole II never played Kingmaker properly. However, his videos were released during the first day after release and, by his own admission, are the most profitable build clips on his channel.

Makes sense. Being the first out with clickbait works, as can be attested by the big news sites, gaming or not. Scummy, but effective. Shame for all the newbies who fall for it though.

 

[NJClaw]

As of version 2.0.8, Crane Wing also works with sword and shield. Which makes Aldori Defender with a shield and a dueling sword even more ... interesting.

Once you already have infinite armor class, having infinite + 4 isn't any better.

 

[Desiderius]

Same with the Bible verse dude.

Literally who?

Arcane Agent

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcqVNh3QKsXqpbYa4BkgBKg

 

[Desiderius]

All newbs should start here:

https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/companion_builds/page1?as=1649904300

His heart's in the right place and he's wrong about a lot of things in interesting ways. Finding out which things he's wrong about is fun and rewarding, and he's not so wrong that he'll gimp your enjoyment.

 

[LannTheStupid]

All newbs should start here:

His builds are thematic, but incomplete. And I am in InEffect non-team anyway.

 

[Efe]

i asked on discord for builds to see whats popular and they recommended arcane agent..
if i understood correctly he just makes videos of someone elses builds and doesnt actually play them.

 

[LannTheStupid]

if i understood correctly he just makes videos of someone elses builds and doesnt actually play them.

He is indeed playing them on his Twitch streams. However, at least for the last year every "companion build" starts from total respec (using a mod), and then he sometimes adds other modded feats here and there. Personally, I do not consider them even Kingmaker builds, let alone companion ones. But to each his own.

 

[Xamenos]

Same with the Bible verse dude.

Literally who?

Arcane Agent

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcqVNh3QKsXqpbYa4BkgBKg

Welp, that's a gimmick I hadn't seen before. I'll trust you on the quality of his builds, can't be arsed to watch them.

All newbs should start here:

https://af.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/companion_builds/page1?as=1649904300

His heart's in the right place and he's wrong about a lot of things in interesting ways. Finding out which things he's wrong about is fun and rewarding, and he's not so wrong that he'll gimp your enjoyment.

Build Notes: This is my take on the "basic" Linzi build. I've noticed that most YouTube, forum and gaming site recommendations have Linzi focusing very heavily on using the Crossbow. For the life of me, I can't figure out the logic behind it. Even if you dump close to a dozen feats on her, her attack bonus will never rise above abysmal and her damage output will never hit more than 20 or so, and that's on an exceptionally good round. No matter how much I buffer her crossbow ability, she was still BY FAR the lowest performer on my team. So I decided to focus on what made her good instead of trying to compensate on what her weakness was.

His builds may not be perfect, from what I saw in a very cursory glance, but the quoted part proves this guy is 10x smarter than InEffect and his ilk and his natural curiosity still hasn't been snuffed out yet by the need to conform. I do like the cut of his jib.