Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cryomancer]

There isn't a single monster/NPC which has access to the entire spell list and can spam them one after the other to combo you to death. Unlike the PCs.

People are saying that on WotR, enemy mages are casting spells like Greater teleport, so the solution is to buff enemy spell list and AI. Not to make every game a low level game. And on nwn1 the AI is dumb. Like some undead clerics casting heal on themselves.

 

[Lacrymas]

The solution is removing the 7-9th level spell circles, like already discussed, and staggering the 1 to 6 progression. Nobody is getting "nerfed" because a nerf is only compared to other characters, which now also don't have access to them. Maybe only special cases like bosses.

 

[guestposting]

Plenty of enemies have mythic levels, all sorts of built in immunities, and high saves. If you try to Sirocco your way through WOTR, my guess is you get curbstomped.

AI also seems a lot smarter than in Kingmaker.

 

[Cryomancer]

The solution is removing the 7-9th level spell circles, like already discussed, and staggering the 1 to 6 progression.

No, that would kill the fun of being a high level magician. Everyone will play as kineticists on pathfinder or warlocks on 3.5e if you does that.

If you try to Sirocco your way through WOTR, my guess is you get curbstomped.

AI also seems a lot smarter than in Kingmaker.

Ice prison, mass + Sirroco + deadly earth is the most broken combo being able to be cast by 2 party members IMO. If enemies are smarter, it can make this combo less powerful

 

[Lacrymas]

Don't worry, by the time I'm done everyone will have an equal playing field.

 

[NJClaw]

I understand wanting a low level campaign in table top because the numbers eventually can get over whelming and there can be a lot to deal with, but video games are a perfect opportunity to experience the higher levels. You have a computer keeping track of everything for you, you don't have to wait for someone else to take forever in their turn, managing a bunch of buffs, etc. I don't know why someone would throw away the opportunity to experience the more complex parts when they're given a medium that can make it more manageable and allow you to focus on the system instead of wasting time adding up a bunch of modifiers. Also sometimes you want to fight dragons.

It's not just about numbers, it's also about believable and interesting stories and how your character can fit in them due to his abilities. Take Baldur's Gate: you begin your adventure investigating some strange market speculation, then you discover your heritage and during Baldur's Gate 2 you experience some crazy (but still fascinating) adventures. Then you reach true high-level gameplay in Throne of Bhaal and at that point you no longer care about what's happening around you because it's a clusterfuck of "fight this super powerful enemy and, after you defeat him, go fight another even more powerful enemy!". Guess what are you going to do after defeating that second super powerful enemy? Yeah.

When you surpass the threshold where your character gains world-altering powers, nothing makes sense anymore. There are no true realistic challenges you can face without inevitably breaking your immersion, because the game needs to arbitrarily limit your characters' abilities or find ways to ignore them (and those ways rarely are clever). What's the point of a dungeon with walls and rooms when you could just destroy everything in the blink of an eye and immediately reach whatever you are looking for? Because you definitely have the powers to do that, but the game needs to ignore them to be playable.

 

[NJClaw]

If you use more or less obscure splatbooks, by level 12 you can easily take down all the demon and devil lords in Fiendish Codex 1 and 2 at once.

Yep; But you are building mid level pun pun builds to take out high level mobs. There are no way to with role play builds, you can do the same...

Not necessarily. You don't need crazy exploitative builds like pun-pun to be able to shred high level monsters like paper. You just need to optimize your character and pick the best options each level has to offer and, around level 12, you have so many spells/powers that interact in so many broken ways that you can defeat almost anything.

 

[Lacrymas]

Having access to the 6th spell circle is definitely enough to defeat almost everything a campaign can throw at you. Including dragons, demons, elementals and so on. And those you can't aren't meant to be defeated in the first place, like gods/demon lords like Mephistopheles.

 

[Cryomancer]

hen you reach true high-level gameplay in Throne of Bhaal and at that point you no longer care about what's happening around you because it's a clusterfuck o

Yep; but most people consider BG2 the best baldur's gate game. BG1 = low level. BG2 = mid level with slightly high level on end chapters. ToB = Epic level.

And having a epic character in mid of the "real" world is not a good thing for a RP standpoint. Epic characters should be dealing with non mundane things. like for eg, dealing with a war between Marids and Efreets, invading the 8th circle of hell to kill mephistopheles or something crazy high fantasy like that. ToB also had way less time and resource to fully develop the story. IF was up to me, throne of baal would happen in the hell and every baalspawn would have to make harsh deals and do harsh things to overthrow another. That would fit more a epic level adventure.

Spelljammer could also work in a high level/epic level campaign.

Having access to the 6th spell circle is definitely enough to defeat almost everything a campaign can throw at you. Including dragons, demons, elementals and so on.

Try to kill spawn of rovagug with tier 6 spells only.

You are planing to reduce sorcerers into Magus without all melee cool stuff and it will kill the class. I prefer not having sorcerer in the game than having it nerfed to be weakling magus. Seriously. Just ask for the complete removar of pure arcane casters. Is less awful.

 

[Lacrymas]

Kingmaker has inflated stats and isn't representative of the system. Like at all. If the only thing separating Magus and other spellcasters are the high spell circles, there's definitely some other issue going on.

 

[Cryomancer]

Kingmaker has inflated stats and isn't representative of the system. Like at all. If the only thing separating Magus and other spellcasters are the high spell circles, there's definitely some other issue going on.

Magus are amazing melee casters but not full casters. If you make all casters half casters, why someone would even play with a full caster when they can play as a half caster and get all powerful melee abilities with all spells? Did you ever played a single caster character? Why you wanna so hard to take otehr people fun? See 4e. Spells are lackluster. Nobody wanna that again.

 

[Lacrymas]

Pure spellcasters can have other bonuses to compensate, like faster damage scaling on spells if it turns out they can't compete with hybrids. Those hybrids can also have a more limited spell selection, up to spell circle 4 maybe. That's not an issue at all. The idea is to remove the ridiculous and badly designed high level spells that transform a mage into a debug console.

 

[Cryomancer]

That's not an issue at all. The idea is to remove the ridiculous and badly designed high level spells.

PF kingmaker and WotR is the unique modern games which allow people who enjoy powerful magic to use powerful magic. Why you wanna destroy other's people fun so hard for the sake of Sawyerism? Nobody likes wizards on PoE1/2.

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42. How are you implementing the threat that the demon armies pose during the crusade? Will there be a timer? Or, will demon armies march against you?

They will march against you. But, there will be no “You will lose in 3 months, unless…”. They’ll go to your house(warcamp?) and burn your villages and sacrifice your townsfolk.

https://forum.owlcatgames.com/t/heres-a-summary-of-the-twitch-q-a-from-may-8-2020/19974

Looks like they understood how time should be in this type of game. Consequences for failing but no longer insta fail.

 

[Desiderius]

unintentionally

 

[Lacrymas]

PF kingmaker and WotR is the unique modern games which allow people who enjoy powerful magic to use powerful magic. Why you wanna destroy other's people fun so hard for the sake of Sawyerism? Nobody likes wizards on PoE1/2.

So, yes, it's just like I said. It's being overpowered for the sake of being overpowered. Big surprise there.

 

[Desiderius]

Alpha leveling speed was closer to P:K Procedural Dungeon speed than P:K base game speed.

 

[Cryomancer]

So, yes, it's just like I said. It's being overpowered for the sake of being overpowered. Big surprise there.

No, look to the pathfinder kingmaker builds thread. Over 99% of builds are martial builds, when they use spells, is to buff characters. https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pathfinder-kingmaker-builds-and-strats-thread.124160/

The best builds are already martial ones. You will gonna take out the unique good thing from sorcerers/wizards? Why not take out barbarian rage too? High level magic should be powerful. The balance cult/sawyerism is why we have so few good RPG's. Fun, challenge and immersion > balance. Mainly in a SP game. But lets suppose that Paizo or Owncat decides to remove all tier 7-9 spells. Do you not think that the one of the most popular mods will restore those spells? Do you really think that anyone will play as a sorcerer over a kineticist or a magus? Everyone who enjoys play as wizard will just play as alchemist.

You clearly hate other people having fun.

 

[Rat King]

PF kingmaker and WotR is the unique modern games which allow people who enjoy powerful magic to use powerful magic. Why you wanna destroy other's people fun so hard for the sake of Sawyerism? Nobody likes wizards on PoE1/2.

So, yes, it's just like I said. It's being overpowered for the sake of being overpowered. Big surprise there.

Isn't the entire point of playing a pure spellcaster to be a pathetic weakling early game so you can become insanely strong late game? If you remove the latter part then I see no reason to bother with the pure spellcasters at all.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Like what do you even want to do in low level CRPG?

You have 6 characters who spammed attacks because there is jack shit you can do at early level. This is not PnP where you can do some stupid shit in combat. In BG, NWN, NWN2, even in PfK most of the early games are spent just doing auto-attack with all party members. You are better off having 5 fighters and 1 rogue for skill monkey than any other classes because you are doing jack shit with your class features early game. It is like watching paint dries. And the enemies are also mostly auto-attack bots.

I can't even fathom about enjoying that kind of shit. The best moment for these games are in the mid-level range. You have tools to play, enemies got interesting tools to play, nobody is stupidly OP just yet. In Pathfinder I think Level 7 - 14 is a good spot.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Prerelease Q&A continues to please. I’d be content with this game being either two-thirds or half as long as Kingmaker if the branching reactivity is delivered.

 

[guestposting]

Lacrymas you’re gonna love the optional final chapter of Kingmaker.

 

[Rat King]

Like what do you even want to do in low level CRPG?

You have 6 characters who spammed attacks because there is jack shit you can do at early level. This is not PnP where you can do some stupid shit in combat. In BG, NWN, NWN2, even in PfK most of the early games are spent just doing auto-attack with all party members. You are better off having 5 fighters and 1 rogue for skill monkey than any other classes because you are doing jack shit with your class features early game. It is like watching paint dries. And the enemies are also mostly auto-attack bots.

I can't even fathom about enjoying that kind of shit. The best moment for these games are in the mid-level range. You have tools to play, enemies got interesting tools to play, nobody is stupidly OP just yet. In Pathfinder I think Level 7 - 14 is a good spot.

I think the appeal of low level CRPGs is that you have to use different tactics from 'destroy everything with your mage' and 'buff party, kill everything' you die incredibly quickly and so does the enemy which makes encounters very fast paced. The world also feels more dangerous when you and your gang are weaklings.

I fully agree though, that mid level is more interesting but I think this is the reason why some prefer low level.

 

[Tacgnol]

Like what do you even want to do in low level CRPG?

You have 6 characters who spammed attacks because there is jack shit you can do at early level. This is not PnP where you can do some stupid shit in combat. In BG, NWN, NWN2, even in PfK most of the early games are spent just doing auto-attack with all party members. You are better off having 5 fighters and 1 rogue for skill monkey than any other classes because you are doing jack shit with your class features early game. It is like watching paint dries. And the enemies are also mostly auto-attack bots.

I can't even fathom about enjoying that kind of shit. The best moment for these games are in the mid-level range. You have tools to play, enemies got interesting tools to play, nobody is stupidly OP just yet. In Pathfinder I think Level 7 - 14 is a good spot.

I think the appeal of low level CRPGs is that you have to use different tactics from 'destroy everything with your mage' and 'buff party, kill everything' you die incredibly quickly and so does the enemy which makes encounters very fast paced. The world also feels more dangerous when you and your gang are weaklings.

I fully agree though, that mid level is more interesting but I think this is the reason why some prefer low level.

I think mid level (8-12ish) is the sweet spot, enough spells and tactics to be interesting, but less one spell save or die shit that can finish the combat in one round.

 

[Lacrymas]

Fun, challenge and immersion > balance.

You can't have challenge without a semblance of (asymmetrical) balance, sorry. Fun comes from being challenged.

Like what do you even want to do in low level CRPG?

You have 6 characters who spammed attacks because there is jack shit you can do at early level.

By the time you are level 3, you already have this gigantic list of spells -

And that's only for 1 character.

This is the other half of the list -

I think I'm absolutely fair about the number of options you have at spell circle 6.

 

[NJClaw]

Alpha leveling speed was closer to P:K Procedural Dungeon speed than P:K base game speed.

I really hope (and think) that's only for the sake of testing. Beneath the Stolen Lands levelling speed was insane.