Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cryomancer]

The world also feels more dangerous when you and your gang are weaklings.(...)he world also feels more dangerous when you and your gang are weaklings.

Well, high level gameplay on 2e was dangerous. After lv 10, you get almost no hit points. That means that a single acid rain casted by a enemy wizard can destroy your party. On 3.5e, WotC had the genial idea of giving a d12 to certain classes per level up. So even with 10 CON, a lv 20 barbarian would have 130 hp on average.

You can't have challenge without a semblance of (asymmetrical) balance, sorry. Fun comes from being challenged.

Asymmetrical balance is a contradiction. Fun comes from not always being the same thing. Killing goblins and kobolds with auto attack is not fun or engaging.

By the time you are level 3, you already have this gigantic list of spells -

Correction. A wizard NEEDS to find this scrolls. And it is a list only for wizards. You ignored the warlock ultra limited list. Ignored the sorcerer limited list. Fighters have a lot of magical weapons to find, but is not honest to assume that a fighter has a complete arsenal of magical weapons, just like is not honest to assume that the wizard have a complete spellbook.

". But after about 4th level, spell scrolls become pants-on-head stupid expensive. You could literally build two and a half Staffs of Power for the price of scribing one 9th level spell. " https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/7c3s1q/xanthars_spell_scroll_pricing_is_insane/

Instead of "casters are op", you should say "wizards, with at lv 20 and unlimited money to have a library of all scrolls on existence are op"

And how OP a fighter with a hired mercenary army costing the same thing would be?

 

[NJClaw]

Like what do you even want to do in low level CRPG?

You have 6 characters who spammed attacks because there is jack shit you can do at early level. This is not PnP where you can do some stupid shit in combat. In BG, NWN, NWN2, even in PfK most of the early games are spent just doing auto-attack with all party members. You are better off having 5 fighters and 1 rogue for skill monkey than any other classes because you are doing jack shit with your class features early game. It is like watching paint dries. And the enemies are also mostly auto-attack bots.

I can't even fathom about enjoying that kind of shit. The best moment for these games are in the mid-level range. You have tools to play, enemies got interesting tools to play, nobody is stupidly OP just yet. In Pathfinder I think Level 7 - 14 is a good spot.

I would move the window a bit closer to lower levels. Probably somethings like 5 - 12. At level 5 you reach level 3 spells and already have plenty of tools at your disposal (you have strong buffs and debuffs, strong blasts and strong control spells).

 

[gurugeorge]

Like what do you even want to do in low level CRPG?

You have 6 characters who spammed attacks because there is jack shit you can do at early level. This is not PnP where you can do some stupid shit in combat. In BG, NWN, NWN2, even in PfK most of the early games are spent just doing auto-attack with all party members. You are better off having 5 fighters and 1 rogue for skill monkey than any other classes because you are doing jack shit with your class features early game. It is like watching paint dries. And the enemies are also mostly auto-attack bots.

I can't even fathom about enjoying that kind of shit. The best moment for these games are in the mid-level range. You have tools to play, enemies got interesting tools to play, nobody is stupidly OP just yet. In Pathfinder I think Level 7 - 14 is a good spot.

I agree. I must admit, I'd prefer it if CRPGs started you at level 4 or 5 (or equivalent) and moved very, VERY slowly to lvl 15 or something. Low level is boring, high level is boring. Mid level is best, with a long time to really get to know intimately all the tricks you're capable of. The fiction of being a nonentity starting from scratch doesn't really sit well with the fiction that you're ANY sort of class to begin with.

Progression is also over-rated - I mean, it's got to be there of course, but the idea that you have to have some kind of shiny new prize and a fanfare every five minutes has ruined a good chunk of gaming. Especially when developers push out expansions and have to scrape the bottom of the barrel looking for new things to be or do at Level Gorillion. Progression should be slow but significant, with meaningful upgrades. "New shiny thing every five minutes" should be handled by treasure, crafting, conversation and story, etc.

 

[Reinhardt]

So, yes, it's just like I said. It's being overpowered for the sake of being overpowered. Big surprise there.

No, look to the pathfinder kingmaker builds thread. Over 99% of builds are martial builds, when they use spells, is to buff characters. https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/pathfinder-kingmaker-builds-and-strats-thread.124160/

The best builds are already martial ones. You will gonna take out the unique good thing from sorcerers/wizards? Why not take out barbarian rage too? High level magic should be powerful. The balance cult/sawyerism is why we have so few good RPG's. Fun, challenge and immersion > balance. Mainly in a SP game. But lets suppose that Paizo or Owncat decides to remove all tier 7-9 spells. Do you not think that the one of the most popular mods will restore those spells? Do you really think that anyone will play as a sorcerer over a kineticist or a magus? Everyone who enjoys play as wizard will just play as alchemist.

You clearly hate other people having fun.

That's exactly because you don't actually need "builds" to stomp everything as high level mage - you have awesome button.

 

[Lacrymas]

Asymmetrical balance is a contradiction. Fun comes from not always being the same thing. Killing goblins and kobolds with auto attack is not fun or engaging.

By the time you are level 3, you already have this gigantic list of spells -

Correction. A wizard NEEDS to find this scrolls. And it is a list only for wizards. You ignored the warlock ultra limited list. Ignored the sorcerer limited list.

The Warlock spell list is clearly visible on that pic. Here's the sorcerer at lvl 3 -

The world is full of asymmetrically balanced games and that's not a contradiction. Starcraft for example.

Instead of "casters are op", you should say "wizards, with at lv 20 and unlimited money to have a library of all scrolls on existence are op"

It's not only Wizards, Clerics and Druids are also god-tier. Divine Souls, Shamans, and Sorcerers just have a limited way to nuke the entire world. It's definitely casters.

 

[Cryomancer]

That's exactly because you don't actually need "builds" to stomp everything as high level mage - you have awesome button.

There are no awesome/win buttons on this games. In fact, a high tier spell can be OP in a encounter and useless in other. The problem is people who NEVER played a pure arcane caster thinking that is OP without even trying it.

The Warlock spell list is clearly visible on that pic. Here's the sorcerer at lvl 3 -

A lv 3 sorcerer can know only 4 spells. http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer

The fact that there are a lot to chose doesn't change the fact that you are looking into lv 20 wizard with unlimited money to purchase extremely expensive scrolls and not to the average wizard.

 

[Efe]

its possible for him to learn some of them but impossible to learn all of them.
what are you even trying to prove? that they have options in character creation?

 

[Cryomancer]

its possible for him to learn some of them but impossible to learn all of them.
what are you even trying to prove? that they have options in character creation?

Yep; he is trying to say something like

"lets make pure arcane casters into half casters without the half casters class benefit because i who never played as a arcane caster believe that a wizards can learn every spell in existence for free and that other casters have the same versatility of a wizard. Everyone needs to autoattack every turn because is my idea of fun. Doesn't matter if all good unfair solo builds are martial on the game. You should be prohibited to have fun if you enjoy using powerful magic in a high fantasy game."

 

[Lacrymas]

its possible for him to learn some of them but impossible to learn all of them.
what are you even trying to prove? that they have options in character creation?

That there are enough options even at lvl 3. Limiting the spell circles to 6 is not a big deal.

 

[Reinhardt]

In fact, a high tier spell can be OP in a encounter and useless in other

And fighter can't just delete encounter. That's why they need "builds" to be able to do something. compared to "i have 3 lvl 9 spells - i already won 3 battles until i need to rest"

 

[Ghulgothas]

16. Any news on modding?

Currently, no news but they are looking at the options for implementation. Will happen later in development.

Honestly this is not inspiring at all for the modding part. A good modding game is modular from the grounds up. Having it to be done later in development will probably make for a half-arsed modding support. Oh well.

Official modding support will probably be very limp wristed compared to what people can already do with Unity patching. The main limitation with KM modding right now is it's very hard to get new art assets into the game. If they can resolve that then people will be able to do a lot of things.

I expect at the very least any missing features that already existed as mods for KM will be ported over very quickly.

It won't take long for the existing Pathfinder modbase to adjust and deliver the same caliber of mods that exist for Kingmaker. They ought to be aware of the expectations people have for it, the litany of Q&A questions and the fact it was a social goal attest to that. Owlcat is nothing if not eager to please, art-asset integration should be a given. But given the shitload of stretch goal features that need to be implemented and integrated with one another, their efforts are better spent elsewhere for the time being.

16. Any news on modding?

Currently, no news but they are looking at the options for implementation. Will happen later in development.

Honestly this is not inspiring at all for the modding part. A good modding game is modular from the grounds up. Having it to be done later in development will probably make for a half-arsed modding support. Oh well.

That's not necessarily true, a good mod framework can still arise later if enough resources are devoted to the prospect, and I'm willing to bet their changes to the engine and testing process includes a greater degree of freedom for alteration than Kingmaker ever did. We shouldn't expect to hear anything concrete about it for a long time, though. Especially if they're crazy enough to try and deliver on the pipe-dream of dedicated Module and Campaign creation.

 

[Cryomancer]

That there are enough options even at lvl 3. Limiting the spell circles to 6 is not a big deal.

Why someone would play wizard over alchemist? Alchemists has way more powerful stuff and can cast circle 6. Please. Go play a game as a pure arcane caster before having sawyerism ideas

And fighter can't just delete encounter. That's why they need "builds" to be able to do something. compared to "i have 3 lvl 9 spells - i already won 3 battles until i need to rest"

Not true. You can end trash fights with tier 9 spells but you will not defeat spawn of rovagug with a tier 9 spell. And the fighter can autoattack the enemies while take no damage on the same trash encounter without any problem.

Also, a lot of enemies has way high SR(spell resistance) in the game. So you need spells like Tsunami(tier 9) to deal any damage on then. Acid fog is useful vs those enemies too but you need to apply metamagic on it because it deals too little damage and some enemies has acid resistance and magical resistance.

Kineticists has way more damage than any tier 9 spell and doesn't even need to rest to re cast their cloud/deadly earth/etc. And they infusions aren't subjected to spell resistance.

Again, i HATE this idea of "nerf".

On BF1, i got killed a lot by m1917 telescopic and i decided to use the weapon for myself rather than asking nerf to ruin other's people fun. In a MP game. In a SP game, even if casters are OP, it only affects those who play as casters.

 

[Reinhardt]

but you will not defeat spawn of rovagug with a tier 9 spell

Oh noes! I can't kill one certain near-invincible thing solo with one spell! Not awesome enough!

 

[Cryomancer]

Oh noes! I can't kill one certain near-invincible thing with one spell! Not awesome enough!

I an not complaining. Of course a spawn of the God of destruction which even Gods could't defeat, only lure to a trap and imprison should be insane deadly and harder to be killed. My critique is that is rather not seeing sorcerers/wizards than having wizards who are just alchemists without all alchemist stuff. And that i prefer not having something than having something completely nerfed.

Point made, if Owlcat removes tier 7 to 9 spells or people will un nerf arcane casters like they did with spell fixes for NWN2 or everyone will play as kineticists. Even DDO which has AWFUL arcane casters, din't took away high tier magic for any arcane class.

 

[Reinhardt]

everyone will play as kineticists

No, only those who want awesome button.

 

[Desiderius]

That's exactly because you don't actually need "builds" to stomp everything as high level mage - you have awesome button.

There are no awesome/win buttons on this games. In fact, a high tier spell can be OP in a encounter and useless in other. The problem is people who NEVER played a pure arcane caster thinking that is OP without even trying it.

The Warlock spell list is clearly visible on that pic. Here's the sorcerer at lvl 3 -

A lv 3 sorcerer can know only 4 spells. http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer

The fact that there are a lot to chose doesn't change the fact that you are looking into lv 20 wizard with unlimited money to purchase extremely expensive scrolls and not to the average wizard.

Persistent AoE effects, most of which are spell-based, are OP. For both sides. It’s why Ghost Mages are such a pain.

 

[Lacrymas]

Why someone would play wizard over alchemist? Alchemists has way more powerful stuff and can cast circle 6. Please. Go play a game as a pure arcane caster before having sawyerism ideas

Like I said before, hybrids will have even a lower spell circle max, like 4. Or the damage scaling of Wizards and Sorcerers is going to be faster. That doesn't matter much and it's a matter of number tweaking. I have played pure spellcasters, that's why I know they need reining in. Casters being this broken affects the other classes much more than the campaign itself. A PnP campaign can always be adapted to the players, but a video game can't be, so balancing around the idea you'll have access to these god-tier spells hurts all the classes who don't have access to them.

 

[Silly Germans]

I found casters in third edition games already a lot weaker than their AD&D counterparts from BG1/2. Is the class balance in PF:KM not ok ? Pure fighters/rangers/barbarians can hold their own so what exactly is the problem with casters ? What is the obvious cheese that casters have there ?

 

[Cryomancer]

No, only those who want awesome button.

Yep. Because wanting powerful magic in a high fantasy game is wanting awesome button, just like fallout new vegas should only have the .38 revolver because how dare people are of wanting to use cool firearms in a shooter/RPG game? RPG's should be always about fast swinging blades /sarcasm

I have played pure spellcasters, that's why I know they need reining in

Don't seem so. Please. Mention this high level spells on kingmaker which can break any encounter and are stronger even than infusions and barbarians raging with a +5 weapon and potion buffs. I wanna know who they are.

I found casters in third edition games already a lot weaker than their AD&D counterparts from BG1/2. Is the class balance in PF:KM not ok ? Pure fighters/rangers/barbarians can hold their own so what exactly is the problem with casters ? What is the obvious cheese that casters have there ?

Me too. 2e casters was near godlike.

But people here seems to love 4e sawyerism.

 

[Desiderius]

The idea that casters are cheese is a combination of

(1) persistent AoE effects being cheese so you have vids of casters soloing

(2) a lack of experience in trying to beat saves and penetrate resistances and manage rest on higher difficulties

I always had difficulty convincing myself to even bother with it in lieu of buff and bash, with Linzi Dispelling as necessary.

 

[Anonona]

but you will not defeat spawn of rovagug with a tier 9 spell.

I was curious, and looking it seems that is true you cannot kill it with a tier 9 spell... you have to use a tier 4 spell!

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1645418344567598037/

Now, reading further, they may have patched out this method, but is quite interesting. I also have seen some other examples of sorcerers builds, even solo build, being able to kill it. Pretty cool stuff.

I'll say while the argument of balancing the classes have some merit (Pathfinder itself suffers from the same issue of "Ivory Tower" design inspired by MTG as D&D 3.5), I actually disagree that Owcalt should remove anything. They are offering a faithful adaptation of Pathfinder and removing such an important element would be wrong and even hurt the already precarious balance the game has.

Don't seem so. Please. Mention this high level spells on kingmaker which can break any encounter and are stronger even than infusions and barbarians raging with a +5 weapon and potion buffs. I wanna know who they are.

Summoning

 

[Cryomancer]

Summoning

Summoning i agree but you don't need to take out tier 7-9 spells.

I mean, on 3.5e, the rule to summoning is that you can control your caster level * 2 hit dice worth of creatures. That means that a Efreet with 10 hit dices can't be controled by any caster with lesser level than 5. And a lv 15 sorcerer can control up to 30 1 hit dice skeletons or 3 Efreets. That limit IMO should be on Pathfinder wrath of the righteous. Dread necromancer is the exception to that rule. He can have HD * 4 controlled undeads.

you have to use a tier 4 spell!

A 4th tier spell and a lot of workaround to have a pretty high DC, a great easy to miss rod and even after it, is more likely that the spell will not kill the guy...

(1) persistent AoE effects being cheese so you have vids of casters soloing

(2) a lack of experience in trying to beat saves and penetrate resistances and manage rest on higher difficulties

Yep. A lot of spells are amazing on low difficulty and useless on high. Eg - Stoneskin. 10 DR is amazing when enemies deal 10-20 damage but is worthless when enemies deals 80 damage. You still will gonna be one/two hit killed on unfair.

Sirroco, on normal is almost a easy button. On unfair, requires so much work to work...

 

[Anonona]

I mean, on 3.5e, the rule to summoning is that you can control your caster level * 2 hit dice worth of creatures. That means that a Efreet with 10 hit dices can't be controled by any caster with lesser level than 5. And a lv 15 sorcerer can control up to 30 1 hit dice skeletons or 3 Efreets. That limit IMO should be on Pathfinder wrath of the righteous.

Unless that same limitation is in PF, then I probably doubt Owlcat will implement it (unless too many summons create issues with framerate/game stability)

A 4th tier spell and a lot of workaround to have a pretty high DC, a great easy to miss rod and even after it, is more likely that the spell will not kill the guy..

Oh, c'mon, you said it was not possible, just showed you it could, even if is hard. And it is one hitting the guy, literally killing it in one blow! Is hard but kind of neat.

Other random method someone posted

"A sorcerer/AT can solo the fight. Distract the bosses using summons. then use true strike+hellfire ray+Grandmaster's Rod x 3, the Spawn should go down after 3 strikes, unless u miss. After that, the dragon is no big deal."

Don't know if that could work, though, you probably know better than me.

 

[Silly Germans]

Most of caster cheese is only possible due to poor a.i. Instead of nerfing casters they should improve the response of the a.i. to spells. I think that would eliminate a large case of the "casters are easy mode" stuff. It's a shame that there is barely any progress in that area.

 

[Reinhardt]

Yep. A lot of spells are amazing on low difficulty and useless on high. Eg - Stoneskin. 10 DR is amazing when enemies deal 10-20 damage but is worthless when enemies deals 80 damage. You still will gonna be one/two hit killed on unfair.

You understand that without support from other characters and proper build fighter can't facetank it too?