On D&D adaptations. Which lv range do you prefer?

[Reinhardt]

Anyway, I an loving Solasta. But honestly, muh button is not awesome enough! I want to be a dragon!

we know

 

[Cryomancer]

Every RPG should be about playing as medievan commoners. Hotu and MoTB are press A for awesome games.

Already explained why I disagree.

 

[Melcar]

Low to midlevel for me. High level is fun for a bit but gets dull fast.

 

[Ladonna]

I only ever played real DnD with 2e. Coming from the aspect, I prefer low to mid levels. In computer games it has been the same, I much prefer facing off against 1 Vampire and his minions with limited tools in Pool of Radiance to facing generic Vampire horde random encounters in Dark Queen of Krynn. Things become totally formulaic and mind numbing where you must have the correct classes, with buffs pre-prepared in order to stand a chance. Min-Max heaven. Lower level adventures make you use the limited tools at your disposal, and do not have every encounter requiring a mad buff pre game. I noticed this starts to become a problem in 3.5/pathfinder games where levels are dished out at a much faster rate, and everything exists around the "buff". In 2e buffs could be helpful, but usually not necessary if you played your cards right. Offensive spells have been toned down in later versions and the buff has become the great game winner.

Bring back the real Fireball!

 

[laclongquan]

Low level and middle/high level are two different kinds of games.

You can see for yourself with Icewind Dale 2.

Test Starting party (lvl1-3) with Normal Targos. The goblins are ranging from 3-5 lvl.

Then test a NG+ party (lvel10-13) with Heart of Fury Targos. Now they are ranging from 15-18.

More important than the hostiles are yourselves. You have a full range of spells in your arsenal. Your fighters are fully defined in their abilities. Even if you dont use loots from previous game and try to use starter weapons, it still feel different.

Low level games just feel more limited to players because they cant do much, while middle to high feel much more open.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Low level plots are usually best. They typically require the least suspension of disbelief and have grounded motifs that are more identifiable. The limit character development also requires the party to act as a whole, rather than as independent superstars. This range can be capricious though, and the lack of options for nearly all classes in earlier editions was a sore spot.

High level is an exercise in schenanigans and wish fulfillment. Fully powered, its fun to break the game and setting, trouncing things that were once beyond you. Particularly for spellcasters, this can be the most rewarding because your character is finally whole. The lost of mystery and something to work towards is felt though.

Mid-level functions best mechanically because of the D20 system suffers at its its extremities. You also have a nice balance of options and power without courting absurdity. It helps with plot devices to have things still beyond the players while getting to venture beyond some tropes that may be tired.

Overall, they each have their own charm and appeal that makes it difficult to rank one clearly above the rest.

 

[Cryomancer]

Offensive spells have been toned down in later versions and the buff has become the great game winner.

Bring back the real Fireball!

That is not entirely truth. I mean, fireball on 2e deals CL *d6. On 3e, the same. CL * d6. The unique "nerf" is the evasion/improved evasion from rogues which is not bad because >
1 - Rogues are already a very weak class and need more cool stuff
2 - It makes fort saving spells better vs some enemies

As for the useful of buffs, is mostly due the lack of enemies dispelling your buffs. Fireball on 5e is not nerfed. Is just different. It deals a constant 8d6 damage. Which is a buff on levels 5/6/7/ and a nerf only on lvs 9+. What 5e really nerfed is the conjuration, alteration, abjuration and necromancy spells.

IMO spells needs to be deadly, like firearms on shooter games. Seeing someone survive being disintegrated dozens of times is silly, like seeing someone surviving dozens of .45-70 shots. I also like when magic is risky, like on Lamentations of the Fire Princess. Disintegration for eg needs to disintegrate. Doesn't matter if the effect is caused by a spell by a SCI FI weapon, by a psionic or whatever. You can include drawbacks to the spell, eg - requiring 3 rounds to conjure beam and if the concentration is broken, you cast it on yourself or something nasty like that but making people able to resist multiple disintegrations is just silly.

They typically require the least suspension of disbelief and have grounded motifs that are more identifiable

IMO the best editions of D&D are the less tokienesque. Like Eberron. I love Eberron so much. Wish that I could't get more content of it. Dark Sun, the Realms of Dread, Planescape, Spelljammer... Most cool stuff on D&D are far away from "sword coast" i wish that I could be isekaied to Eberron

Low level games just feel more limited to players because they cant do much, while middle to high feel much more open.

Making an analogy, one is like firing with a musket. Another is like having a semi automatic .338 Lapua Magnum rifle.

t. Fully powered, its fun to break the game and setting,

I disagree. Everything that a player can cast, an enemy can cast too. Sodalis on nwn1 - hotu is a high level enemy wizard done right.

 

[Reinhardt]

Everything that a player can cast, an enemy can cast too. Sodalis on nwn1 - hotu is a high level enemy wizard done right.

Nah, you can't make enemy wizard done right in vidya. Simply because it's not fun - you would be dead the moment you entered his tower.
Enemies in rpg games are here to provide illusion of challenge, not actively trying to kill player using all resources at their disposal. That's why enemy superboss sends his weakest servant after you and when it fails he sends second weakest instead of just stomping you.
That's why your "city of liches with epic level servants" sounds retarded. It's just "stuff as much cool shit in one place for players entertainment as you can". Your party should be dead no matter if you plan to fight them or not. Not even grorious last stand. Just dead.

 

[laclongquan]

Low level games just feel more limited to players because they cant do much, while middle to high feel much more open.

Making an analogy, one is like firing with a musket. Another is like having a semi automatic .338 Lapua Magnum rifle..

Wrong analogue. Its more like a redneck arsenal compare to a gunshop owner's personal stash

 

[Cryomancer]

Simply because it's not fun - you would be dead the moment you entered his tower.

Not truth. There are a lot of counters to very powerful mages. For eg, a single antimagic field can have a devastating effect against him. Antimagic field in a high magical world is the same of a "emp field" in a cyberpunk world.

That's why your "city of liches with epic level servants" sounds retarded. It's just

Again, do you know Orcus? Orcus is one of the most powerful Demon Lords which controls the undead layer of the abyss and knows the secret of lichdoom. On 3e which doesn't have nasty necromancy like 2e, you can create mid and mid high CR undead with create greater undead(8th tier magic). Why such a epic level enemy able to create high level undead is so """retarded"""? What do you expect from Orcus? That he cast the might, all powerful, epic, incredible, raise single CR 1 skeleton like 5e "high level" necromancers?

Here is his stats on the Throne of the Bloodstone - page 76

And this are his INCOMPLETE stats. He can cast far more of this spells at will, all cure spells, all detect spells, anti magic shell, dispell magic, lightning bolt dealing 30d6 damage, animate dead at will as a 30th level caster, cast six wishes per day, stop time(...) and this without taking his wand into account.

If you put my epic level necromancer who soloed BG2:EE On Legacy of Bhaal against Orcus, he would DIE.

For those who are only used to 5e lackluster necromancy spells, here is what animate dead could do on 2e - Players handbook - page 210. A 12th level magic wizard could reanimate a fire giant. I an pretty sure that Orcus should be able to create liches with mere magic, without needing complex rituals.

If you put my epic level necromancer who soloed BG2:EE on Legacy of Bhaal against Orcus, he would't have any chance. Unless the "dm" is awful and let me win.

 

[Reinhardt]

There are a lot of counters to very powerful mages.

Nigga, you came to his tower, not him to yours. It would be his anti-magic field. So bye-bye awesum button. Good luck learning how to hit enemies with your shitty walking stick.

Again, do you know Orcus?

I don't care about Orcus, but i care enough to understand that you can't come to city of fucking epic level liches and expect to survive it. Even if you are just "investigating" or some other shit. You are talking about horde of paranoid backstabbing superpowerful monsters. You really think you can just come and go?

If you put my epic level necromancer who soloed BG2:EE on Legacy of Bhaal against Orcus, he would't have any chance. Unless the "dm" is awful and let me win.

But for some reason you believe you can outsmart him.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

S0rcererV1ct0r I remember thinking Eberron was a mixed bag when I read about it. I didn't like Warforged or Ur-Priests and a few other things. Its been so long, that I can't claim to have an opinion about it anymore.

Breaking the game is pretty inevitable at high level for the reason Rheinhart mentioned and more. It breaks especially because the foes you fight can do the dame things. When everyone is phasing planes, reversing gravity, making wishes, etc. all at well above the upper range of a D20, the game breaks down in every way. Exceptions start becoming the rules. It can be fun, but it has it issues like any other level range.

 

[Cryomancer]

you came to his tower, not him to yours. It would be his anti-magic field. So bye-bye awesum button. Good luck learning how to hit enemies with your shitty walking stick.

What part of anti magical field you din't understood? Is a anti magic field, not a anti enemy magic field. Disjunction is the unique way to destroy a anti magical field and can only be cast outside of the field and has only a small chance of success. This only proofs that you never played a high level magic campaign on TT or video games.

But for some reason you believe you can outsmart him.

No, never said that.

In the comment of the video which I posted

We are talking about a party of epic level characters failing over and over and never finishing the adventure.

When everyone is phasing planes, reversing gravity, making wishes, etc. all at well above the upper range of a D20, the game breaks down in every way. Exceptions start becoming the rules. It can be fun, but it has it issues like any other level range.

Well, there are counter for this spells as I already said many times. And wishes, is a very DM dependent spell.

Anyway, we are talking about D&D adaptations into computers. Which game broke on high levels? Can you name one? There are a lot of epic modules for NWN1:EE, including P&P conversions. Hotu and MotB and so on.

 

[Reinhardt]

This only proofs that you never played a high level magic campaign on TT or video games.

This only proves you never interacted with real human beings. Anyone focused on actually killing your party instead of playing along with bunch of powertripping nerds would do it with ease. And that's the way to play enemy mage - focus on killing your enemies so he can go back to doing his magic shit.

 

[Nortar]

What part of anti magical field you din't understood? Is a anti magic field, not a anti enemy magic field.

The owner of anti-magic field does not have to enter the area personally.

One of the nastiest traps I had my characters in, was a room covered by AMF with rust-monsters swarming inside.
We were just level 7 and no one wanted to get their metal gear eaten by those damn cockroaches.
The plate-armored fighter suffered the most, haha. Ah, good times.

 

[Cryomancer]

This only proves you never interacted with real human beings. Anyone focused on actually killing your party instead of playing along with bunch of powertripping nerds would do it with ease. And that's the way to play enemy mage - focus on killing your enemies so he can go back to doing his magic shit.

Again. Play the module first, then critique the module. I sadly can't play on P&P 2e, so I an playing the adaptation t NWN1. Even reaching the Orcus abbyssal layer was hard and now, there are a demilich with DC 34 finger of death which casts dispel on you, summon vampires and other nasty stuff. I an not even close to Orcus "castle". His layer of the Abyss is a pain in the ***. Before entering the Abyss, the hardest fight that I had was vs a dragon which retreats at low HP and attacks when you are less expecting.

I fell far more like enemies are trying to kill me playing nwn1 : Throne of the Bloodstone than ToEE which is a amazing low level game.

AMF with rust-monsters swarming inside.
We were just level 7 and no one wanted to get their metal gear eaten by those damn cockroaches.

Cool. Luring the monsters out(assuming that they are mindless) seems the best strategy.

 

[Reinhardt]

there are a demilich with DC 34 finger of death which casts dispel on you

Yeah, that's exactly what demilich would do - pointing fingers at some adventurers. Because he has nothing better to do. I mean he became undead for this shit. Again, you have zero understanding of what being really, REALLY strong mage is. For you it's just some braindead retard with awesome button, million skeletons and succubus harem. Isekai animu is full of them.

Cool. Luring the monsters out(assuming that they are mindless) seems the best strategy.

You know - people invented thing called "door". You don't even need to be mage to place it. And it can be closed behind you. Sounds like MAGIC! but it's true!

 

[Cryomancer]

pointing fingers at some adventurers.

Nope. He is probably creation of Orcus and is not "some adventurers", is a adventurer who invaded a layer of the abyss. Is that hard to understand that a human who become a vampire/lich/wathever and a artificially created uindead are differents and the artificially created lacks agency? Are loyal towards their master. Most undeads on Orcus realm are Orcus creation.

Computer AI can't act as a super intelligent lich. This is one of reasons which makes TT superior. I imagine that the Abyssal part would be 10x harder on TT game.

For you it's just some braindead retard with awesome button, million skeletons and succubus harem. Isekai animu is full of them.

Wrong. Most "awesome" isekai protagonists are swordsman that solve everything with a fast swinging blade. Kirito from SAO is the most iconic and well known example. He solves everything with a fast swinging blade. Dragons? Fast swinging balde. Fireballs in a fantasy VR? Fast swinging blade. A Anti Materiel Rifle in a shooter VR? Fast swinging blade and he vaporizes the bullet in a instant. There are a case, where a guy with an Axe was taking years to cut a tree in a VR, but Kirito with a fast swinging blade cut it in one swing.

How many high level D&D style casters we have on isekai? I can only remember one. Ainz Oal Gown. And yes, Overlord is amazing. So are Drifters. But I guess that Drifters sucks for you cuz the MC tries to develop firearms instead of using fast swinging blades to solve every problem.

BTW, Ainz can create Liches and they are very loyal towards his master. However, they are far weaker than naturally occurring Night Liches.

You know - people invented thing called "door". You don't even need to be mage to place it. And it can be closed behind you. Sounds like MAGIC! but it's true!

Door bashing is a possibility.

 

[Pink Eye]

Knights of the Chalice 2 made Early Game, Mid Game, and High Game - very fun to play. It just depends on how well the developers designed the fights in those portions of the game. You can make any level range fun if you have challenging encounters with rewarding loots, emphasis on the challenging encounters though. High Level play in some games tends to be a joke because of player having access to lots of strong equipment and spells - thus being able to cheese enemies. In Baldur's Gate 2, I cheesed lots of enemies with Polymorph and Finger of Death. Not much fun to be had there. Although, Throne of Bhaal was another story. That one had a couple of interesting boss fights with cool gimmicks.

 

[Nortar]

You know - people invented thing called "door". You don't even need to be mage to place it. And it can be closed behind you. Sounds like MAGIC! but it's true!

Door bashing is a possibility.

Right you are! But it sounds like you operate with one issue at a time.

Here's a situation, not even that deadly, just unpleasant.
You enter a corridor with AMF, stone slabs fall behind and in front of your party,
rust monsters start pouring into the room from holes and crevices along the floor and ceiling,
their antennas reach hungrily to your arms and armor. Your actions?

Tell me what you would and I'll tell you what Orcus would have done.
Speaking about Orcus. He makes liches now. How and what for?

 

[Cryomancer]

their antennas reach hungrily to your arms and armor. Your actions?

Depends a lot. If I have oil and a torch, I will just burn then. If I have a less expensive weapon, I would use the less expensive weapon to fight then. If I have a monk in the party, he doesn't need spells, weapons or armor, so he can punch then.

He makes liches now. How and what for?

Not sure.

But most humans who worships Orcus expect to get the knowledge about how to become Liches. For eg "Orcus became the patron of the Red Wizard Zhengyi in the 900s DR, aiding him in his quest to become a lich." https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Orcus

If someone can "create undead" to create powerful liches, like a mid level necromancer can create mummies, it is Orcus.

I expect to see far more powerful undeads on Orcus realm. Just like I expect to see far more Dragons on "Tiamat's" realm, far more Genies in the elemental planes, Mindflayers and Beholders in Far Realm and so on. Some people believe that every place needs to be low level Sword Coast and if you disagree, you have a "press A for awesome" mindset despite hating games made with that mindset like Diablo 3, a looter action game with less RPG than survival games where everyone has a stash with hundreds of "legendary" items.

 

[Mangoose]

Again, your choices:

Red = AD&D/2e
Blue = D&D 3/3.5e

1. Low level(lv 1~7 eg : BG1, Dark Sun : Shattered Sands, ToEE)
2. Mid level(lv 8~15 eg : BG2:SoA, Dark Sun Wake of the Ravager,
3. High level and epic level(lv 16+) : Eg - NWN:HotU, NWN2oTB, BG2:ToB

Excellent methodology.

 

[Elex]

1- D&D is not “a setting” the DM create the setting: even forgotten realms exist in infinite variation, not even Ed greenwood play on the pubblished version of the FR. Lore nazi are the worst thing ever at a table they kill the DM fun.

2- low level D&D are the more manageable by DM with less experience or less time: so it’s more fun because the DM can create more interesting stuff and can improvise easy. When the player with a single spell can fuck up Months of DM plans the game become a chore for the DM. It’s hard for some nerd? No, but it’s extra work, and any DM will make more and more mistake and create more plot holes if the party keep teleporting around the planes, killing gods and creating artifacts.

3- only because one guy have a certain fetish for extremely powerfull spellcaster don’t mean he should talk only about that and that d&d should be only about that.

i have a fetish about pure arcane spell and i don’t like “elementalist wizard” or “necromancer” but i don’t try to force everyone to think the same.

4- if you order a pineapple pizza during my D&D session your character will die.

 

[Reinhardt]

pineapple pizza

It's a thing?

 

[Nortar]

their antennas reach hungrily to your arms and armor. Your actions?

Depends a lot. If I have oil and a torch, I will just burn then. If I have a less expensive weapon, I would use the less expensive weapon to fight then. If I have a monk in the party, he doesn't need spells, weapons or armor, so he can punch then.

Shrills of burning insects create deafening echo.
Driven by pain and hunger they climb over other, crazy to sate their metal hunger.
Your fate (and that of you metal epicz(!) shit) will be decided by the dices.

The point of this exercise was to show that your modus operandi does not go beyond low/mid level characters capabilities.
Oil, fire, fisticuffs. The stuff of legends, right?

So what Orcus would do?
Well, he would not get into that mess in the first place. That simple.
With his "supra genius" intellect and droves of slaves he does not have to do anything, let alone wander dungeons without knowing exactly what's where.