On D&D adaptations. Which lv range do you prefer?

[RPK]

4- if you order a pineapple pizza during my D&D session your character will die.

I thought this went without saying :D

 

[Reinhardt]

The point of this exercise was to show that your modus operandi does not go beyond low/mid level characters capabilities.
Oil, fire, fisticuffs. The stuff of legends, right?

B-but that's what peasants without awesum buttonz do, right?

 

[octavius]

This thread makes me feel enerdulated.

 

[Cryomancer]

Well, he would not get into that mess in the first place. That simple.

Orcus was once a larvae. I was assuming that we are talking about a far in the past version of orcus. Actual Orcus would NEVER waste his time doing it.

ToEE

ToEE is 3e only due WoTC BS. The original module was 2e.


And ToEE would be a far better game on 2e.

extremely powerfull spellcaster don’t mean he should talk only about that and that d&d should be only about that.

i have a fetish about pure arcane spell and i don’t like “elementalist wizard” or “necromancer” but i don’t try to force everyone to think the same.

I an not forcing it on everyone. Also, I don't talk only about it. I posted a lot of screenshots on screenshot thread about Metro : Last Night, a shooter. I just love high magic in fantasy worlds and firearms IRL and in other worlds. I also loved solasta despite the low level focus and honestly, as I've said on Solasta thread, we spended years and years with ZERO good CRPG's and now, in a single year, we have 2 amazing to play. One for those who enjoy mostly 5e and low level and other for more old school 3.75e fans with high level/mythic content. Both not only being good as the old ones but also bringing new things(mythic paths and the environmental iterations on solasta).

I talk more about magic than firearms, cuz there are a lot of RPG's with great magic and few ones with great firearms. Like Fallout New Vegas. And when I mention something great about a old shcool RPG, the balancefags that wanna everyone to be a fighter in every single game and every single game about kobold slaying on sword cost "hur dur, it is a awesome button, hur dur it is op, nerf!!!"

I could write paragraphs and paragraphs talking about how cool the Brush gun on new vegas is. Nobody cares. I talk about how cool freezing sphere is on Kingmaker + Call of the wild and people start to complain. BTW, Gothic 2 - RETURNING has one of the best magic systems of video games and magic is not easy in that game. To become a necromancer, you ask Xardas for apprenticeship, wait until he decides, become a novice, train your body and mind, doing intellectual stuff like alchemy, runemaking, reading books, until your spirit and mind can sustain the magic of darkness. Then do the initiation into the circle of darkness by killing a "sheep of Innos" which is not easy, since the follower of Innos is in a monastery protected by powerful fire magicians. After it, you gather the reagents, learn how to make runes, purchase the book of runemaking and can make your arrow of darkness spell. Magic path is not easy. Took 14 hours for me to become a mere circle 1 necromancer in that game. Your summons costs a mana upkeep per second. Summon demons require complex and expensive reagents to be made and upgrated and circle 4 which you will only reach after about 100 hours into the game. You could also lose control over your army of darkness but it was removed by bugs.

does not go beyond low/mid level characters capabilities.
Oil, fire, fisticuffs. The stuff of legends, right?

Not. Oil + Torches is not high level. Nor monks punches. A lv 8 monk can deal d8 damage with his bare hands. Torches is something available for lv 1 chars and same for oil. You can use it literally on the first bandit encounter on chapter 1 on kingmaker.

Everything that is not a sword is a awesome button

As I've said, this items aren't high level items. Hell, literally the first sidequest on kingmaker requires that you deal with insect swarms, if you don't have a spell like burning hands, you will use alchemical bombs and torches at lv 1/2/3.

---------------------

Underdark :
- On Low level(BG3) - A cave with some spiders
- On medium level(Dark Sun : Wake of the ravager) - Mindflayers, drakes and other nasty creatures with no room to rest till almost the end
- On high levels(NWN1:HotU) - Dracolich cultists, High level vampire wizards teleporting and doing all crazy stuff(Sodalis), Mindflayer colony, conflict between Drow(...)

 

[Serus]

I would say from 3 to 12~14. The first two levels, as some people mentioned, aren't that interesting in any d&d version i played. And - as other also mentioned - the reason, difficulty and often fun disappear after early teen levels.

 

[Mangoose]

ToEE is 3e only due WoTC BS. The original module was 2e.

Unfortunately you're stuck with the class/spell progressions of a different edition, which might - JUST MIGHT - affect what levels are most entertaining?

Besides, you know, the rest of the gameplay.

 

[Cryomancer]

Besides, you know, the rest of the gameplay.

My point is simple. 2e > 3e > 5e and 4e is not D&D. Is Generic WoW clone : Tabletop Edition just like we have the Generic WoW clone : Star Wars Edition and the Generic wow clone : Conan Edition.

But on low/mid/high/epic levels, just see the underdark in different games.

• Low level - BG3 - Is a cave with spiders and nothing interesting. The unique ""hard"" enemy is a spider with hp so inflated that she can soak being hit by about forty javelins.
• Mid level - Dark Sun : Wake of The ravager - Mindflayers and hordes and hordes of enemies to fight with no room to rest
• High level - BG2 on ch5 : Mindflayers, Beholders, Drow cities, dragons, political intregues, a lot of quests, mad liches imprisoned
• Epic - NWN1 : Hotu : Everything from BG2 + Dracolich weird cult and conflict between drow houses and cities.

I really wanna ask those who prefer low level if they prefer BG3 underdark over BG2 or NWN1 : Hotu. I honestly liked all iterations of the underdark, except on BG3 which could be renamed to just a cave.

 

[Nortar]

Well, he would not get into that mess in the first place.

Actual Orcus would NEVER waste his time doing it.

If you agree that Orcus would not do that,
why do you keep insisting that he or guys of similar power-level would
play along with adventurers, and even let themselves get cornered in their own places?

All these epic-level scenarios dumb all-powerful adversaries down to DMs (limited) imagination.
And ultimately they serve just as loot pinata for players.
Some people could be ok with that - no need to overthink that shit, you know, level is just a number, and lich is just a kobold with more numbers.

But it's much easier to provide proper challenge, than proper verisimilitude.
So I'd rather play at lower levels, than facepalm at the very idea of a demi-god ruling over layers of Abyss being wacked by a bunch of murderhobos in corner of his outhouse.

 

[Cryomancer]

similar power-level would
play along with adventurers, and even let themselves get cornered in their own places?

He isn't letting players invade his place and we aren't talking about average adventurers. A adventurer can be a lv 0 commoner with no class levels or can be a lv 42 guy like Karsus searching for ingredients for his spell "karsus avatar". We are talking about humans who broke all humans limitations and reached epic status. And has help of other powerful creatures like Bahamut. But demon lords aren't Gods.

The strongest of the demon lords are akin to demigods and has no chance against lesser "true" deities. You keep assuming that Orcus on 2e would be easy to be killed by a high level group and no. Most of this epic modules has groups trying over and over and never finishing it. This is extremely better than Tiamat on 5e which has ridiculous nerfed stats that doesn't reflect the power of her. The module clearly suggests retiring the adventurers after the adventure is over. I posted some of his stats. I honestly even at ridiculous epic levels, have no idea about how to fight someone so strong. Even reaching his abyssal layer in a video game with very poor AI was no easy. But the rule is clear. If has stats, it CAN be killed/destroyed. D&D2e decided to not have stats for deities. Only for deities AVATARS which has a tiny fraction of the real power. Because no game rule can "measure" the true deity powers and the limited DM imagination also can't.

you know, level is just a number, and lich is just a kobold with more numbers.

Nope. Level is a measurement of your "progression". Just like attributes measures your character capabilities.

• Level 1 = Started to learn a "class"
• Level 9 = Become proficient with the class
• Level 20 = Reached the peak of the class
• Level 21+ = Broke mortal limitations

Is on lv 9 on 2e where necromancer specialized magic users gain the possibility to cast animate dead. When paladins and rangers get spells and you stop getting a new "hit dice" and start to gain little to no HP on level up. If you read the domains of dread, at page 96, they say use the therm "accomplished" to refer to Strahd as a lv 16 necromancer. And prior to his corruption a "mage of mediocre skill" to refer to him as a lv 5 human generalist mage. Then 5e BS tier 1/2/3/4 comes and messed with everything.

------------------------------------------------

Other aspect of MID and high level gameplay that is very neglected on video games is the concept of "titles" and fortresses. On Swords & Wizardry, a magic user who reaches lv 12 gets the title of Wizard which is equivalent to a Baron IRL and lv 18, the title of Archwizard which is equivalent to a Duke IRL. Stronghold and area management, getting money to do researches, hiring hirelings and you only go on adventures when something really bad happened. If you don't wanna go to otherworldly adventures, this is the best way to play as a high level (arch)wizard. The strongholds are :

• Assassins = Assassins guild(lv 14)
• Clerics = Stronghold/Church(lv 9)
• Druid = (Arch/Great)druid on his grove(lv 13 + challenge the current grove leader or become a renegade)
• Fighter/Paladin = Stronghold(lv 9)
• Monk = Monastery(lv 11)
• Magic-User = Wizard tower(lv 12 but it is so expensive to have researching lab, library and etc that you will only get a full tower at 14+)
• Ranger = Fortress(lv9)
• Thief = Thieves guild(lv 9)

Sadly few games implemented stronghold management. I loved Crossroad keep on NWN2. Might & Magic VI/VIII also did titles linked with classes and requiring promotion quests. You need to be promoted to Wizard to learn master level spells and to Archwizard or Lich to learn grand master level spells.

S&W also has rules for aerial combat, so you can have a flying castle vs a dragon battle on high level.

 

[Reinhardt]

or can be a lv 42 guy like Karsus searching for ingredients for his spell "karsus avatar"

How many karsuses existed in all recorded history? Enough for full demilich stupid skull's smashing party?

• Assassins = Assassins guild(lv 14)

• Clerics = Stronghold/Church(lv 9)

• Druid = (Arch/Great)druid on his grove(lv 13 + challenge the current grove leader or become a renegade)

• Fighter/Paladin = Stronghold(lv 9)

• Monk = Monastery(lv 11)

• Magic-User = Wizard tower(lv 12 but it is so expensive to have researching lab, library and etc that you will only get a full tower at 14+)

• Ranger = Fortress(lv9)

• Thief = Thieves guild(lv 9)

And why even bother if everyone is still spending time crawling some lich infested shithole instead of running stronghold? All this fancy shit is just for basic income.
That's main problem about your high and epic level. It's literally the same as low, but more retarded and with liches instead of kobolds.

 

[Falksi]

It only feels right to let the dice roll decide which level is best.....

 

[Cryomancer]

still spending time crawling some lich infested shithole instead of running stronghold? All this fancy shit is just for basic income.
That's main problem about your high and epic level. It's literally the same as low, but more retarded and with liches instead of kobolds.

Again, play the underdark on BG3, on Dark Sun : Wake of the Ravager, on BG2:SoA and on NWN:HotU and answer if is the same thing. Because fighting a dracolich and a kobold aren't the same thing.

As for why adventure, high level characters go adventuring when shirt goes wild. For eg, on hotu an horde of the underdark attacks the surface. On MoTB, you get infected by a nasty curse and need to investigate how to be "cured" from the soul eating state. RPG's aren't games only abound dwelling into dungeons and killing stuff. I din't liked much nwn2 OC but defend the crossroad keep which I invested so much time and money into making it amazing was so cool. Games are supposed to be fun. Playing as a guy who was a mere apprentice and now has status, renown, power, is cool.

ow many karsuses existed in all recorded history?

One. But my point is to show how much "adventurer" can vary.

 

[Reinhardt]

Because fighting a dracolich and a kobold aren't the same thing.

Because of numbers?

I din't liked much nwn2 OC but defend the crossroad keep which I invested so much time and money into making it amazing was so cool.

Maybe it's because you, well, DEFENDING YOUR KEEP, not going to random ADVENTURES like some murderhobo?
For now all your epuk levulz you are talking about is just murderhoboing just with higher numbers. All your magic is PEW PEW WITH HIGH DC, if you suddenly lose access to awesum button you momentarily degrade to punching monsters with your fists. Your characters are not supra genius mages, they are cavemen with ak-47. No ammo - no awesum.

 

[Mangoose]

Besides, you know, the rest of the gameplay.

My point is simple. 2e > 3e > 5e and 4e is not D&D.

Nobody cares about that point. The question was: "Which lv range do you prefer?" The answer is not "2e > 3e > 5e and 4e is not D&D."

Besides, I knew 4e was MMO in 2007. Almost 15 years ago. Congrats on you for being supersmart.

 

[Mangoose]

Technically NWN1 is the only D&D up there unless you LARP 6 characters at a time.

Also, ask this question to any Wizard and the answer is: What level do I get 9th levels spells

 

[Nortar]

Nope. Level is a measurement of your "progression". Just like attributes measures your character capabilities.

• Level 1 = Started to learn a "class"
• Level 9 = Become proficient with the class
• Level 20 = Reached the peak of the class
• Level 21+ = Broke mortal limitations

And this is the reason why epic levels will always be half-assed.
Unless you play with DM who "broke mortal limitations" behavior of all your demi-gods and archil-iches will be just a cargo cult.
It's best to leave them as distant and obscure figures of immense power, with goals and motives far beyond your understanding and imagination, not punchbags with more spells.

 

[Reinhardt]

Basically it was pointed long ago - you can't create believable character smarter than yourself.

 

[Sabotin]

I prefer mid levels.

1-3 are usually just glossed over anyway, I guess do to the randomness involved and the perception of a beginner adventurer being a child/idiot. However with proper curation these could be pretty fun. I enjoy making do with limited resources and finding creative ways to progress. This is also where equipment bases can shine the most. Then again you can do this on slightly higher levels just as well...

Something like 5-15 would be best. You're building your character identity, focusing on certain aspects, progress equipment and tactics, etc.. It's more the meat of d&d I feel.

At high levels (and epic later) the system just seems to start breaking down. Power growth is more about tacking on more and more boni to the same things and the difference between good/mediocre/bad can be too large. Difficulty increases come more from retarded amounts of stat boosts than anything else. Plus the suspension of disbelief gymnastics are comparable to the starting levels with lv4 dragons and archmages, just now you have lv20 Randomtribe orc commoners instead.

 

[Gargaune]

Nope. Level is a measurement of your "progression". Just like attributes measures your character capabilities.

• Level 1 = Started to learn a "class"
• Level 9 = Become proficient with the class
• Level 20 = Reached the peak of the class
• Level 21+ = Broke mortal limitations

Hold on a minute, pretty sure a level 1 is meant to be a "qualified" practitioner of a class, not a trainee. So, to force an analogy, a level 1 Doctor has just completed medical school, as opposed to a student who'd still be classed as a level 0 Commoner.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I remember Mystara handling epic level adventurers by having them become godlike immortals and by so kicking them at the bottom of the feeding chain again. Since they went from being the most powerful amongst mortals to becoming the weakest among immortals. I never read the handbook for playing immortals so I can't give any details, but it seems to solve the problem with powerful adventurers being just stronger.

 

[Darkzone]

Level 0 is the best level !!!
Level 0 with a noname character and just a learned trait like a cook, leather maker or dung farmer.

 

[Cryomancer]

Because of numbers?

No, because Liches has way more abilities to use and take into account. Again, play the underdark part on BG3, on Dark Sun : Wake of The Ravager, on NWN1:HotU and on BG2:SoA and see how underdark can only be great on medium and high levels. On BG3, it was reduced to a cave with hp inflated spiders and that is it.

Everything that is not a sword is a awesome button. Nobody should be able to use high magic in a high fantasy game. Nor psionics, nor firearms, nor alchemical stuff, nor anything that is not a fast swinging blade(...)Basically it was pointed long ago - you can't create believable character smarter than yourself.

The second part is truth. This is why is hard to a DM to play Vecna for eg. But doesn't mean, that he can't try act as Vecna and make it very fun and interesting to the party. The point of a game is to have fun. If playing Vecna lives is fun, why not?

Unless you play with DM who "broke mortal limitations" behavior of all your demi-gods and archil-iches will be just a cargo cult.

No human DM can be smart as Orcus, but doesn't means that a DM can play as Orcus and make the party fell terrified. Otherwise, the monster manual would't have a single monster with more than 18 INT. Beholders are a terrifying enemy for a mid level party and no human can act like a highly intelligent and paranoiac alien aberration.

The greatest downside of high level gameplay is that a lot of powerful iconic creatures becomes fodder.

pretty sure a level 1 is meant to be a "qualified" practitioner of a class, not a trainee. So, to force an analogy, a level 1 Doctor has just completed medical school, as opposed to a student who'd still be classed as a level 0 Commoner.

I disagree. If you look to the complete psionics book, a psion only starts to attract students at lv 9+ which is called "name" levels. Bellow level 9, you can't even be a teacher.

AD&D 2nd Edition-The Complete Psionics Handbook - Followers

Note that the text uses "neophyte" to refer to low level practitioners.

 

[Reinhardt]

But doesn't mean, that he can't try act as Vecna and make it very fun and interesting to the party.

Exactly. Your super liches are just

hp inflated

skeletons. That's what we talking about. Your enemies are here just to "make things fun and interesting" for party of murderhobos. Be it kobold or dracolich. And that's why you can go on adventures in the city of epic enemies. FUN!

 

[Johnny Biggums]

Low level wins out over mid level for me by a hair or two. I agree that high level stuff feels too ridiculous. The 'parameters' set out by traditional heroic mythology are a good reference point. Think St. George and the dragon, David defeating a giant, Perseus and Medusa, the labors of Hercules. When your characters abilities, adventures and feats make Hercules and Perseus seem like retarded armless children you have gone too far for me. It's not that I would refuse to play it or enjoy it, I just think more human-scaled adventuring is better.

 

[Anonona]

On BG3, it was reduced to a cave with hp inflated spiders and that is it.

A quick correction here, seeing as you have made the same mistake twice. The Phase Matriach Spiders isn't in the Underdark, but in the cave called the Whispering Depth. Is a "lower" level zone than the Underdark and you can locate the entrance to the Underdark proper there, but the spiders themselves are so to speak, on another zone. So in fact, depending on what route you pick, defeating the Matraich Spider is more like a requisite to even enter the Underdark.

Spoiler

In the Underdark you can find Hook Horrors, a Spectator Beholder and wizards among other things like dreugers