Let's bitch about STEAM! - The Thread!

[FeelTheRads]

Point is you should still be able to game without Steam, you silly goose ^^

DEEERP WHAT U MEAN??? STEAM IS AS IMPORTANT AS ECLETRICITY! CAN"T LIVE WITHOUT EITHER! DID U KNOW ABOUT STEAM ENGIENS??? WE COULDN"T DRIVE TODAY WITHOUT IT!!! STEAM IS AEWSOME!! LET ME GO SUCK GABEM"S COK AGAIN FOR CREATING SOMTEHING THAT RIVALS ELECTRITCITY!!!

 

[Achilles]

steam would be better if it enforced no secondary drms like fucking gfwl or origin for games offered through steam.

I'm sure they would be more than happy to get rid of all these useless systems but they don't have that kind of pull yet.

Anyway, this whole discussion is pointless since the majority of the anti-Steam camp doesn't want to acknowledge the positive things that Valve and Steam have done for PC gaming. So be it.

 

[pocahaunted]

steam would be better if it enforced no secondary drms like fucking gfwl or origin for games offered through steam.

I'm sure they would be more than happy to get rid of all these useless systems but they don't have that kind of pull yet.

Anyway, this whole discussion is pointless since the majority of the anti-Steam camp doesn't want to acknowledge the positive things that Valve and Steam have done for PC gaming. So be it.

You must be blind, then. Even if you were correct, which you aren't, that has nothing to do with the point in contention as it doesn't dismiss or even mitigate the negative impacts felt by a portion of a game's potential consumer base, arising from forcing said agents into using a specific platform that they dislike.

EDIT: This kind of shit is really annoying, you act like Steam/Valve are a benevolent entity bent on saving "PC gaming" from impending doom. No. They're a corporation and everything they do ultimately boils down to garnering value added to their name, whether they are selling you shit or engaging in marketing/PR campaigns. It's working pretty well, I might add, considering the many claims implying that consumers owe them. As if their summer/winter/whatever campaigns aren't a huge way to sell some shitty games and make consumers engage in word of mouth publicity, or as if heavily discounting prices now doesn't benefit them in the future in the form of a huge monopoly.

 

[Jasede]

I don't know what to say. Every company aims to make a profit. So turn the wheels of the world. It is neither good nor bad, it just is the state of things under our system. Why single out Steam?

 

[pocahaunted]

Exactly, I'm not attributing a value judgment to their actions. They're doing what they feel they should be doing, within the realm of what is accessible to them. I wasn't claiming that Steam is bad because it's attached to a business, just that arguments hinging on "what Valve has done for PC gaming" don't have legs to stand on when trying to dismiss Steam's flaws (the DRM, forced usage of unnecessary software, etc). What they have done, has been done to benefit themselves and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but there's certainly no debt that consumers owe Valve based on charitable behavior.

Regardless, I'm not personally happy that people are willing to allow such a strong monopoly to form without questioning future implications, but this isn't directly connected to Steam's technological annoyances and isn't part of my argument.

 

[Dexter]

EDIT: This kind of shit is really annoying, you act like Steam/Valve are a benevolent entity bent on saving "PC gaming" from impending doom. No. They're a corporation and everything they do ultimately boils down to garnering value added to their name, whether they are selling you shit or engaging in marketing/PR campaigns. It's working pretty well, I might add, considering the many claims implying that consumers owe them. As if their summer/winter/whatever campaigns aren't a huge way to sell some shitty games and make consumers engage in word of mouth publicity, or as if heavily discounting prices now doesn't benefit them in the future in the form of a huge monopoly.

You almost make a practice benefitting almost everyone involved from Steam itself with increased spread and word of mouth, to the developers by selling more games and making more money in the process (and guaranteeing a long tail after being thrown out from Retail) to the players by getting games they can play cheap sound bad or nefarious xD

Honestly, from ALL the key players that would have been able to gain this "monopoly" in Digital Distribution you are talking about (Microsoft, SONY, EA, GameStop, Activision, UbiSoft etc.) I'm overjoyed that it's Valve.
Microsoft back in the day started their try at the job by implementing a monthly fee to be able to play Multiplayer, after an overwhelming and resounding "fuck you" from about everyone over several years they finally gave up: http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/209600008

Valve punish people with cheap Indie games, free DLC and giving away free games every now and then at their own cost and by generally making sensible business decisions (and not changing anything about their DRM in almost 9 years for better or worse).

And again, THEY AREN'T FORCING EXCLUSIVITY!

 

[FeelTheRads]

and giving away free games every now and then at their own cost

At their own cost...

It's just a "sensible" business decision, I'm sorry to tell you. It does not stem from their golden heart.

 

[moraes]

The summary of the arguments in this thread is:

Arguments pro Steam:

+Valve's agressive pricing has provoked quite a plunge in the cost of games for the final consumer (I can personally vouch for this argument, as a BR wich in the old pre-Steam days just pirated everything due to high costs of boxed games).
+Steam conveniently centralizes all of your games in one big library that you can download as you see fit, without limitations, removing the need for boxed copies or physical backups.
+Games in the library are conveniently auto-updated every time they are launched.
+Steam provides "community" features, such as groups, chats, public profiles, IM with your gaming friends, etc. (This can be seen as a weak point for all of us that are misanthropes).
+Steam now hosts modding content.

Arguments anti Steam:

-Steam is fast becoming the de facto standard of gaming distribution, even to the point of boxed games coming with the requisite to install and download game/update files via the service. This, of course, is bad in the sense that it removes choices away from the consumer.
-Steam, as a platform, is DRM in the sense that it imposes arbitrary limitations on the acquired software licenses: no reselling, one time online autentication, etc.
-Steam, as DRM, has not eliminated other forms of intrusive DRM. (So you have some bizarro situations, like GTA IV, who forced the consumer to log in Steam, log in GFWL and log in Rockstar Socialclub just to play the game)
-Steam requires constant or at least regular broadband internet access. It's offline mode is finicky at best and it's only relatively offline, in the sense that prior online authentication is mandatory.
-Valve, who owns Steam, is a bussiness with all the risks of a bussiness in a capitalist economy. It means that all of its consumers library of games runs the risk of the corporation. This last argument has been the subject of a retort in the lines of: "Yes, but your house has the risk of burning down and taking with it all your boxed games". To wich was stated that we, as individuals, run the risk of our houses burning down (and are able to sell that risk) but, as consumers, are hardly entitled to decide wich risks a given corporation shall take or not take. To the conclusion that we can be personally liable for the ulterior state of our houses (and all of its content) but hardly can we recall such a liability when speaking of the destiny of a corporation like Valve.

 

[Lautreamont]

100 year old books are generally quite rare after all.

Actually, there's plenty of them. WorldCat has around 10 million records for books published between 1500-1902. That figure is for the record of each published title held by a single library; it does not include the number of additional copies held by other libraries worldwide. Factoring in those library holdings and all private collections in the world, there must be at least several billion copies of 100-year-old books in the world right now.

This has no point concerning the Steam debate; just wanted to point out that old books are not that rare. I'm using an 1852 edition of Plato's Republic as a drink coaster at work.

 

[LundB]

It's great hearing people say that Offline mode is awesome, when by their own admission, they haven't disconnected from their internet connection for years. Get back to me when you have to travel all the time for work, and often find yourself in locations with slow, capped, or nonexistent internet access.

Offline mode, even when it works, often tells me that most of my games are 'not available in Offline Mode', for completely arbitrary (read: nonexistent) reasons. Thank you, GabeN, thank you for deciding that I can't play a single-player game, for absolutely no reason. After the initial install, even awful shit like SecuROM lets me run my games without connecting to the internet and an external service, but somehow it's seen as SUPER EVIL DRM while Steam is seen as OMG LOVE GABEN SO AWESOME. Activation limits are incredibly obnoxious, but if I reach them, I can fix it with a 5 minute phone call, whereas nothing I do will let me run a game Steam arbitrarily decides I'm not allowed to run offline.

Fact of the matter is, Steam isn't DRM in any real sense. If you want to call it DRM then you demean the word. When most people think of DRM they think of activations, shit like TAGES and Securom that installs stuff on your drive that serves no purpose other than to block you accessing your legitimately purchased games.

No. First off, 'no purpose other than' is inaccurate. If Starforce came with an ingame chat function, it would still be DRM. Steam is used for online activations, and many boxed games make you install it (a completely separate piece of software from the game) on your hard drive to block you from using the game how you want to (Sure, it gives you achievements and an overlay too, but as I said, that doesn't make it any less DRM). It fulfills every function you list as defining characteristics of DRM. Whether you like Steam or not, it is DRM, in a completely real sense.

If one can live with the serious problems Steam has, great. Though I prefer getting games elsewhere, I do buy the occasional game off of it myself (albeit only on sale). However, pretending the problems aren't real, or that Valve are somehow amazing messianic figures who should be loved for providing Steam, is ridiculous.

The summary of the arguments in this thread is:
[Everything genuinely constructive that has been said]

 

[Thane Solus]

i have like 80 games bought from Gabe in the last years, but recently i stopped. They have started to accept just about any game, no matter how buggy or shit it is, if they have a good contact with a publisher it will be added. Second, today i tried to replay Dawn of War, well i had to pirate it lol, since the Steam version didnt work anymore and steam support is horrid (lots of other people shared the same problem). I prefer Gamersgate and GOG. Gamersgate has some games with Free DRM, and some not, also it requires manual patching (WOOOO!)

Third : Offline mode is a joke

Also Dawn of WAR II - steam + gfwl = GOD?!! never again.

 

[Jasede]

Arguments pro/con post

Looks about right. Everyone just has to weigh those pros and cons depending on their own system of values and decide for themselves. Like with everything else in life.

 

[Turjan]

Arguments pro/con post

Looks about right. Everyone just has to weigh those pros and cons depending on their own system of values and decide for themselves. Like with everything else in life.

Indeed. Whether you find the Steam service acceptable depends on your personal situation. I see the risk that arises if Steam ever gets sold. Then again, I don't buy expensive games on Steam. Nearly everything I bought was $5-$10, some games about $2.50. I bought one game for $25, but this was a one time thing. A quarter to a third of my Steam games have been bought at other online vendors or as boxed copies. All in all, my monetary loss from Steam vanishing would be relatively mild.

Although I principally dislike the online requirement of games, it doesn't really matter to me personally. My home computer is always online, and I personally never had a hickup with Steam. Then again, I only buy older games where hickups got usually ironed out. For my laptop, I got tired of carrying around heavy weights, so my current one can't play any modern games, anyway. It's great for installing older GoG stuff, though, so I'm very happy GoG exists.

Regarding the bloatware argument, I can see that. On my 6 year old WinXP computer, I made sure that Steam only started when I wanted to play a game, and it took nearly a minute to start up. On Win7, it takes about 3 seconds after I type in my Windows password for a Steam message to pop up, so I don't care about having Steam switched off anymore.

So, for me Steam is not a big deal. I can see it being annoying if your only computer is a laptop that you carry around everywhere and have to fight with online authorizations all the time. This is not the case for me, though.

 

[Dexter]

The summary of the arguments in this thread is:

+ You can take that library with you anywhere any time, since all you need is your Account name, password and an internet connection. You also don't have to reinstall your games after a system change anymore, just copy your Steam folder to another partition and reinstall Steam and all games should be playable without disc-joggling or countless reinstallations (also works with copying the Steam folder to another PC), that Installation/Deinstallation process is also extremely streamlined and doesn't require 100 text boxes anymore but a single click
+ “Free Weekends”, „Guest Passes“ and Betas, where you can just download and play games in their entirety for a weekend or a certain specified period of time and decide if you want to buy them or not afterwards
+ Valves "Steam Deals" periods like the Summer/Winter Sale and other deals, up to 80-90% discounts at times for a short period, which wouldn't work in a "retail" environment: http://store.steampowered.com/browse/under5
+ "Community-Features" don't only allow stuff like IM or chat misanthropes like you won't enjoy but are actually quite functional in other ways like being able to see what games people are playing and join in or "Invite" people to Online games/lobbies etc. to see if they want to play and eliminate long conversations trying to recite IP addresses and port numbers over voice chat
+ Features like Cloud Saves (to be able to play from different PCs), "Steam Play" between different platforms e.g. PC/Mac so far but Linux is apparently coming: http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/25/steam-for-linux/ , Achievements (for people who get a hard-on from that), gifting system, being able to play games in all available languages, in-game overlay with browser, also free statistics of best selling/most played games, hardware surveys etc.: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

- Not only no reselling/authentication but the actual real possibility of losing one's games for a whole various number of interpretable/hazy reasons detailed here (they should offer more legal certainty, likely won't till they are dragged before a court over it): https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=5406-WFZC-5519

• Piracy or Hacking
This includes using an unauthorized ("hacked") Steam client to access Steam, attempting to register fake CD Keys or attempting to register a CD Key which has been published on the internet.
• Payment Fraud
Any fraudulent credit card use, credit card chargebacks, or Paypal chargebacks (regardless of when the transaction occurred).
• Redeeming Fraudulent Gifts
Never accept a gift from an unknown user. Any accounts tied to a redeemed gift from a fraudulent source may be suspended.
• Hijacking or Sharing Accounts
Do not use Steam accounts which you did not create.
• Account "Phishing" and Deliberately Deceptive Activity
This includes contacting other users outside of Steam or over the Friends network under a misleading screen name or e-mail address (i.e. "Steam Admin", "VAC Administrator", "You Won Free Game Gift") and requesting password or account information.
• Buying, Selling, or Trading Accounts
Accounts which have been bought, sold or traded will be suspended. This includes any other accounts in your possession at the time of the sale or trade, regardless of whether those accounts were also sold or not.
• Violating Steam's Subscriber Agreement or Rules of Online Conduct
Please see the Steam Subscriber Agreement and Online Code of Conduct if you have any questions about the policies which govern Steam account use and account termination.

Some real-world examples:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/01/thought-do-we-own-our-steam-games/
http://www.pcgamer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1965
- If Steam is down for any reason (be it maintenance, overload, hacking or whatnot) so are most of your games, they should at least finally fix their Offline Mode to work 100% of the time. Respectively if said community features like the friends list is down there's literally no considerable way to communicate, invite people and "Matchmake" in certain games like Left4Dead
- Steam doesn't seem to make a difference between $/€ and some other currencies (GoG for instance sells using $ to everyone around the world), it's also a lot more expensive than Retail outside of sales/special price periods (even though that's retarded seeing as every Retailer takes a cut, there's actual material, storage and transport costs and they're STILL cheaper?), Mail-Ordering outside of the country (like from the UK/US) shouldn't be cheaper than a download, there's also problems with "Uncut"-versions in certain countries (like mine)
- They need to stop making use of 3rd-Party DRM or at least properly denote it: http://steamdrm.flibitijibibo.com/index.php?page=DRM_Lists/The_Big_DRM_List
- It can be harder to install Mods on certain games (e.g. GTA IV for example) but they're seemingly working on that with the Steam Workshop

 

[Jaesun]

The sheer fact STEAM does allow independents to not have to deal with fucking shit publishers and distributors is a GOOD thing. Though shit like when they told the Genenii Rue developer out right NO, they will not put their game on STEAM fucking pissed me off (it apparently wasn't NEXT GEN enough for Valve). I'd like to see GOG possibly be a bit more friendly to such independent studios. I personally more support GOG more than STEAM after that shit with Gemenii Rue.

 

[Dexter]

Gemini Rue is on Steam? xD http://store.steampowered.com/app/80310/ I bought it at some point.
But they seem to kinda hate Adventure games a little I agree, this pissed me off: http://translate.google.de/translat...portal.de/?site=news&do=shownews&news_id=9262
It also took rather long (over half a year) to convince them to take on this one: http://www.joystiq.com/2012/04/17/to-the-moon-rocketing-to-steam-soon-play-it-so-its-not-your-la/

 

[Jaesun]

The ONLY reason they added Geminii Rue was because it was part of an indie bundle (which I DO give STEAM props for).

Otherwise it would NEVER be on there. Fuck you Gabe.

 

[Regvard]

Steam also doesn't support the troops.

Pretty damn un-American. Dare I say communistic?

There wouldn't be any DRM in a communist setting.

 

[Achilles]

Steam is far from perfect, I don't think anyone can really argue that. But it has managed to become a force in global game distribution and, in my opinion, it is by far the most benevolent force compared to the others. Gog is fantastic, I really love it but it is at best a minor force and probably unable to present a challenge.

 

[AgentBJ09]

Stick with me on this one. I'm sure everyone has asked this at least once, but I've noticed a few things I think could use discussion.

1. - Starting with the article/interview with Notch in PC Gamer about why Minecraft isn't on Steam, and never will be, I started looking more into the idea a bit. Now that I have, I'm seeing a point that is never touched on, despite it being in most product listings.

That is, a lot of these third-party distribution sites like GamersGate, Amazon, Gamestop, Gamefly, Green Man Gaming, and such, are only selling Steam key versions of certain games. Not their own versions of the products, sans the downloaded files themselves. Why would this be if Steam wasn't something akin to a monopoly on PC distribution? Shouldn't consumers be allowed to pick a Steam/DRM free version of any game from these other distribution sites if they like?

Speaking of that...

2. - The loss of choice from physical/digital sale registration.

I'm actually a bit surprised so few people raise a fuss over having to register a game with Steam/Steamworks, even if you bought it, legally, at a store, or on another service. To quote Jim Sterling from an old video of his on Online Passes, "If you're a publisher, and I just paid you [bleeped] sixty bucks, and you're going to make me prove myself to you, before you let me play the game I just paid for, How. [bleeped]. Dare. You." Sans CD keys, I agree with him on that. If you have to register a game with a service, despite buying it from somewhere else, then you could form the argument that, as a service, Steam is coming close to a monopoly regarding current games. Unintentional or otherwise.

Since Steam also functions as DRM, in that, unlike Desura, you can't launch games attached to it without the client running, that's another reason I have to raise questions about most games being pulled onto Steam versus being allowed to be installed without it. Even more so when I've found other DRM systems active in games like Borderlands (SecuROM) that I purchased through Steam itself. Why would Valve, the company that they are, even allow this, since it's clear from minute one a sale was made? I would hope they would take more of a stand against using extra third-party DRM systems like those.

Anyway, to offer examples of other systems, Kalypso uses a game unique client system for patches for their published stuff. You can run the games without using it at all, and if you do use it, it turns off once the patch is applied. Even better, you can de-register your CD keys from your account, allowing you to sell the game if you're done with it, or if you think you made a bad purchase and want to recoup some of those costs. And then, with Desura, once you download a game, you can shut down the client without killing the game process as well, or look for the .exe file and run the game just fine.

If I may be so bold, I haven't seen any client cracks for Kalypso games, aside from No-CD ones. Steam however has a number of them, and some of those double as DRM cracks. For the world's biggest game distribution service, why is this exactly?

- There are a few more points I'd like to touch on, like the Greenlight service, but I'll leave this all here for now. Personally, I think this service is approaching a monopoly, but only because we're letting it. And services don't last forever.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Steam allows to taint drives of their renters with Securom malware? Truly some people are deserving to be treated as Sapiens cattle they're.

 

[Turisas]

Steam games are easy to crack, so I don't mind.

 

[Konjad]

I like Steam.

 

[Angthoron]

It is pretty close to a monopoly, yeah. Seems GMG is trying to move in though, they used to stick to only selling Steam keys before, but now they seem to have games that go exclusively to their account and run either without extra DRM or have things like Ubi Launcher (for Ubisoft games).

 

[octavius]

Like I mentioned in another thread:
While GamersGate sell many DRM free games, some are needlessly tied to Steam. I checked out Thief 2, and for some reason this 10 year old game has to be activated on Steam. Why can't GamersGate sell it DRM free when GOG can? And why do they lead their customers to Steam this way? If you have to sign up to Steam to activate/play a game, you may as well buy the game at Steam!
I just don't understand this. How can it possibly be in GG's interest to tie their games to Steam, when they don't have to? I would think Steam is their main competitor.

 

[Metro]

Here we go... again.

 

[Konjad]

Some people are never bored of flipping the same shit again and again, it seems.