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Let's bitch about STEAM! - The Thread!

Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Well, if we don't benefit from Steam collecting our data I don't see the problem objecting. If people protest strongly and companies have to think twice about collecting and selling information about you, I don't see the downside. If it doesn't work, you're in the same boat you were before If it does, at worst, you won't have lost anything.

And I do think its a valid concern in the aggregate. Maybe its not a big deal with Steam alone, but this is something every company is starting to do (even for drivers/other software for operating your mouse).
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,733
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Companies have been snooping into our personal data for years, data that is much juicier than "demographics of players, time spent playing/periods of most activity, if the library of their players has one or more games from a certain dev/publisher, DLC purchased and when, and quite a few more.". I prefer to save the "brave warrior of freedom VS evil corporation" routine for important stuff.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
Yeah, I think Steam's collection likely pales in comparison to, for example, Facebook. So Steam's pretty low on my list. I just don't really mind it when other people take a blanket position like this on all services - if anything it benefits me.
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,600
Codex 2013
Well, if we don't benefit from Steam collecting our data I don't see the problem objecting. If people protest strongly and companies have to think twice about collecting and selling information about you, I don't see the downside. If it doesn't work, you're in the same boat you were before If it does, at worst, you won't have lost anything.

And I do think its a valid concern in the aggregate. Maybe its not a big deal with Steam alone, but this is something every company is starting to do (even for drivers/other software for operating your mouse).

But there isn't any real downside to them collecting my data either. It doesn't really affect me. The most it's ever affected me was when Steam used to ask me whether I wanted to download new drivers for my videocard, otherwise all the data collection takes place in the background and doesn't affect me at all.
 
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
But there isn't any real downside to them collecting my data either. It doesn't really affect me. The most it's ever affected me was when Steam used to ask me whether I wanted to download new drivers for my videocard, otherwise all the data collection takes place in the background and doesn't affect me at all.

Sure - I'm not arguing that you should be pissed off. Just that other people protesting won't negatively affect you unless you get a benefit from Steam's data collection.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
If that's true, then they must not have shown any interest in me over the last year and a half. I've never once seen those prompts, aside from the EULA updates. Which are now called "subscription updates." Call me old-fashioned, but I own my games in full when I buy them.

As for what kinds of data Steam collects, you'd have to ask someone who is a developer or a publisher, or someone who works in the industry for that one. I know a few people who work in the industry, and from what they've told me, devs and publishers have access to a lot of data behind the scenes that Steam compiles for them. Things like...whether the copies we buy are physical or digital according to the keys registered, what the demographics of players are, time spent playing/periods of most activity, if the library of their players has one or more games from a certain dev/publisher, DLC purchased and when, and quite a few more.

Most of this is pretty much harmless, but here's the rub: All of that is marketing data, which you're agreeing to offer by using Steam, irrespective of whether you tell Steam it can collect that voluntary data from before. And what does having Steam open all the time encourage you to do? Spend money, from which Valve gets 30% or more every time, even with massively discounted game sales of 50% or more.

Actually, let me ask you something in return: What sort of benefits can you see from giving Valve a laundry list of the programs you have installed on your computer? Ignore the hardware bit, and just focus on the software part. They can't market Office 2013 to you, nor any upgrades to Firefox. So, why give them that kind of information? Origin may not have asked, sure, but is Valve really that worthy of a list of your preferred programs? And if they are, I'd like to hear your reasons why.
They give you a Survey window like this:
steam-hardware-survey-installed-software.png

You can either accept or decline. The thing is there are now ~55 Million active users on Steam and they only do these periodically and they're projections from there.

Regarding the other stuff, obviously developers/publishers get more data, they even have Real Time Sales data based on Region/country and how many people buy their stuff

Pic_sw_ps_01.jpg

They don't really need to collect any information for most if not all of that from you though, since you buy or activate directly on Steam. Retailers also collect your Sales data and numbers sold per Region etc. and you see them every year reported in various forms like "NPD numbers" or VGChartz. There's nothing "insidious" about that.

Here are some different statistics that developers get from Steam:
GreenlightDeveloperStats.jpg

PostLaunchStats.jpg

graph-of-left4dead-player-engagement-over-time.jpg


And here is some of the stuff they do stats on described in written form:
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Steamworks
http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/publishingservices.php
http://steamgames.com/status/ep2/ep2_stats.php

I'm pretty sure some Indie dev released a full Screenshot of the entire Steam Real Time Sales Stats Tool for their game, but I can't seem to be able to find it.
 

AgentBJ09

Educated
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
54
Yes, it is. Because

massively discounted game sales of 50% or more.

For that, I'll gladly let them know top secret stuff like what developer I like best, if I like popamole shooters like most 20-somethings or if I usually play games at night.

You missed the part where I said they can already do that. Check the post again. I'm talking about software like Adobe Photoshop, uTorrent, Java, Zandronum, Microsoft Office, ect. ect. Things which belong to non-gaming companies like Adobe and Sun Soft, and which are considered utility software. Although, in Zandronum's case, that's an engine type, but still.

You can either accept or decline. The thing is there are now ~55 Million active users on Steam and they only do these periodically and they're projections from there.

Regarding the other stuff, obviously developers/publishers get more data, they even have Real Time Sales data based on Region/country and how many people buy their stuff.

They don't really need to collect any information for most if not all of that from you though, since you buy or activate directly on Steam. Retailers also collect your Sales data and numbers sold per Region etc. and you see them every year reported in various forms like "NPD numbers" or VGChartz. There's nothing "insidious" about that.

You didn't answer my question, which that first picture was hinting at. What makes Valve any more worthy of a list of your installed programs than EA, Microsoft, Ubisoft, or others of the like? (I noticed a few Adobe products in there, along with uTorrent at the top.) What do you think they are using that data for if they can't market Office, Adobe Photoshop, or other such utility software to you?

(By the way, I've never opened a Facebook account. The service is pointless to me, and I've heard the stories about their data collection.)

As for what devs and publishers get, keep in mind you can't opt out of that kind of information sharing. You can only opt out of giving up your hardware specs and your list of installed software. And, to counter what I know is coming, if you already own a physical copy of a game outside of Steam, which you are allowed to make back-ups of just in case, that makes me question further what Valve even needs that software list for.
 

Dexter

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
15,655
You didn't answer my question, which that first picture was hinting at. What makes Valve any more worthy of a list of your installed programs than EA, Microsoft, Ubisoft, or others of the like? (I noticed a few Adobe products in there, along with uTorrent at the top.) What do you think they are using that data for if they can't market Office, Adobe Photoshop, or other such utility software to you?

(By the way, I've never opened a Facebook account. The service is pointless to me, and I've heard the stories about their data collection.)

As for what devs and publishers get, keep in mind you can't opt out of that kind of information sharing. You can only opt out of giving up your hardware specs and your list of installed software. And, to counter what I know is coming, if you already own a physical copy of a game outside of Steam, which you are allowed to make back-ups of just in case, that makes me question further what Valve even needs that software list for.
I'm sorry, did I explain the big *optional* and *they ask you* thing wrong in some way? xD Also it's right here, albeit it seems to have last been Updated in 2010, so I don't even know if they collect it anymore: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Do you also know that the likes of Google/Twitter or now that you mentioned Facebook also track your activity on the Net based on Cookies and try to link it to your person (although even if they can't since you don't have an account with any of them they will keep an Anonymous profile)?
That's one of the reasons why a lot of EU sites have to "warn" that they use Cookies now: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/london/uk-cookie-law-takes-effect-what-you-need-to-know/4910

Do you also know that there are widespread market research firms that collect that sort of data (including your IP adress, the browser you use, from which sites you came, how long you stayed on specific articles, pageviews within a Portal and what pageclicks you did) and analyse it?
Including on your very own Codex, but other sites like say PCGamer are outright infested by them.
rpgciuu7o.png
pcgfjuxh.png

http://www.ghostery.com/apps/adexcite
http://www.ghostery.com/apps/extreme_tracker
http://www.ghostery.com/apps/google_analytics
http://www.ghostery.com/apps/tribal_fusion
http://www.ghostery.com/apps/twitter_badge

Do you block every little one of these providers, scripts, or even cookies so you can be "safe"?

Do you know what kind of information interested parties can gather from simple things like a Netflix Account or similar through de-anonymization algorithms on "Anonymous" datasets?
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1450006
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/09/your-secrets-live-online-in-databases-of-ruin/

There's a fine line between privacy and paranoia and I think Steam and the bag of data they optionally collect or the games you play should be the least of your worries. :P
 

AgentBJ09

Educated
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
54
There's a fine line between privacy and paranoia and I think Steam and the bag of data they optionally collect or the games you play should be the least of your worries.

Those we know about so, I'll ask one more time: What makes Valve worthy of a list of your installed programs on your PC?
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,600
Codex 2013
Those we know about so, I'll ask one more time: What makes Valve worthy of a list of your installed programs on your PC?

He already answered it by saying it doesn't matter to him as pretty much everything else does it already, and to a much bigger extent. Does one now need a reason for why you don't care if Steam collects harmless data from you? How about we simply don't care because it's harmless and doesn't affect us?

So let's flip the tables. What makes Valve unworthy, compared to all the other services that mine your data?
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,600
Codex 2013
Yeah, I'm sure you do. Nobody ain't ever gonna catch you watching hot gay bondage porn.
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
12,851
Why can't this shit remember my fucking birth date already and STOP FUCKING ASKING.
 

hiver

Guest
There's a fine line between privacy and paranoia and I think Steam and the bag of data they optionally collect or the games you play should be the least of your worries.

Those we know about so, I'll ask one more time: What makes Valve worthy of a list of your installed programs on your PC?
The answer is a non answer, of course. Everyone does it so why not Valve too. But, yeah...you knew that anyway.
Conformism.

Luckily it is not everyone that is so conformant. Thats why we have ghostery and Tor and other such tools being developed all the time.
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,600
Codex 2013
Why can't this shit remember my fucking birth date already and STOP FUCKING ASKING.

Because as far as I know they're obliged by law to ask every time and not just once off. Besides, the screen usually stores whatever birthdate you used last time.

The answer is a non answer, of course. Everyone does it so why not Valve too. But, yeah...you knew that anyway.
Conformism.

Luckily it is not everyone that is so conformant. Thats why we have ghostery and Tor and other such tools being developed all the time.

Or maybe people simply don't give a fuck if a company gathers marketing data simply because... they don't give a fuck. I know this is hard for you to wrap your head around, but do try.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
Why can't this shit remember my fucking birth date already and STOP FUCKING ASKING.

Because as far as I know they're obliged by law to ask every time and not just once off. Besides, the screen usually stores whatever birthdate you used last time.

Yup. Steam remembers my birth date well enough.
 

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