People News Torment Kickstarter Update #49: Kevin Saunders leaves inXile, replaced by Chris Keenan

[Volrath]

What's the worst that could happen? A first half full of quests, dialogue and wonderful ideas, followed by...

 

[Stainless Veteran]

I'd recognize fucking Curst even on 50*50px picture.

 

[Excidium II]

What's the worst that could happen?

Wasteland 2?

 

[Invictus]

Guys again dont jump to conclusions; Sometimes you give a project to a guy who wants to be well liked, has artisitic integrity, is understanding of the needs of his team an is an all around great guy... But when you are running on a budget and have to keep to scheduled to be profitable (perish the thought!) you sometimes need someone who can kick some ass and get results to make sure the game get back to schedule. Cutting content is pretty normal on even great games like the original Torment so that is simply no indication of the quality if the game.... Sometimes all ideas are not good for a particular game or not feasible so getting someone in with a more realistic leadership is just the the thing a project back on track. It is a common deal on performance based buisness were you have a guy who can haddle the overall development and a closer whi can bring it all together by cutting to the heart of the matter
Hell just look at Grimoire, maybe if someone who wasnt as emotionaly invested in the game had become involved and dumped the crafting system or a few areas or managed to hound Mr Blakemore to death that game could have been released already

 

[Darth Roxor]

Wasteland 2?

Age of Decadence

 

[Excidium II]

Age of Decadence

Looks like you need to play Wasteland 2.

 

[Infinitron]

Uh. Setting aside whether you think the games are bad or not - just looking at the fundamentals, there's no way Torment can be the same kind of experience as Wasteland 2. But it does seem like it could be similar to AOD.

 

[Excidium II]

Uh. Setting aside whether you think the games are bad or not - just looking at the fundamentals, there's no way Torment can be the same kind of experience as Wasteland 2. But it does seem like it could be similar to AOD.

It can give a similar "design by checklist" experience.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Looks like you need to play Wasteland 2.

You think AoD is designed better than W2?

 

[Excidium II]

You think AoD is designed better than W2?

I only played the Arena and Teron demo back then so I don't know.

I find it hard for it to have worse design than WL2.

 

[Infinitron]

It can give a similar "design by checklist" experience.

You're more interesting when you're not blindly repeating felipepepe's old complaints. Like what you said a while back about WL2's map design being the reason people didn't like it, even though in the end nobody seemed to really give much of a fuck about that.

But I'll humor you. Given that common "RPG checklist" items such as trash mobs are guaranteed not to be in the game, what "design by checklist" elements do you fear here?

 

[FeelTheRads]

I find it hard to believe W2 can be worse than AoD which is amateur hour wherever and however you look at it.

I played more AoD than W2 because I'm still waiting for the definitive deluxe omnibus edition of W2.

 

[Excidium II]

You're more interesting when you're not blindly repeating felipepepe's old complaints. Like what you said a while back about WL2's map design being the reason people didn't like it even though in the end nobody seemed to really give much of a fuck about them.

But I'll humor you. Given that common "RPG checklist" items such as trash mobs are guaranteed not to be in the game, what "design by checklist" elements do you fear here?

I repeat because the more I play it the more it's validated, the whole game feels like it's made by people who didn't really play RPGs until they had to go and see what RPGs need to have. I just run around those maps getting quests and clicking every keyword on friendlies and killing every hostile until I exhaust the content and move on to the next place my quest log points to. Wow it's just like Fallout.

For Torment, it tries to be PS:T so just reduce it to its basic levels: Strangeness, lots of text, philosaphikool kuestions.

Strangeness already feels like trying too hard right on the starting zone we see on the crisis alpha, strong hint of design by checklist.

 

[Infinitron]

inXile may not be the only reductionists here!

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Its quite lovely how people who were already convinced the game is going shit, now claim Saunders leaving is the reason that convinced them the game is going to be shit.

Don't bullshit the bulshitter.

 

[DeepOcean]

Its quite lovely how people who were already convinced the game is going shit, now claim Saunders leaving is the reason that convinced them the game is going to be shit.

Don't bullshit the bulshitter.

Actually Wasteland 2 was enough to convince me of that.

 

[Sensuki]

For Torment, it tries to be PS:T so just reduce it to its basic levels: Strangeness, lots of text, philosaphikool kuestions..

Technically there should also be some adventure gameplay too. I have not finished PS:T, but I recall Ziets and others talking about some puzzles and stuff.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

The idea that "strangeness" is coming off lets-clone-PST checklist is absolutely moronic. TTON is fucking weird, because Numenera is fucking weird.

Yeah, the setting tends to influence the content. Shocking, I know.

 

[Morality Games]

What's the worst that could happen? A first half full of quests, dialogue and wonderful ideas, followed by...

I've been on tenterhooks with this since they dropped a 6-person party in favor of 4. Any shake up of key personnel is going to make me nervous and no PR is going to make me feel better about it.

Also, while I don't mind that it is turn-based, it bothers me they thought they had the freedom to put it to vote.

 

[Crescent Hawk]

I repeat because the more I play it the more it's validated, the whole game feels like it's made by people who didn't really play RPGs until they had to go and see what RPGs need to have. I just run around those maps getting quests and clicking every keyword on friendlies and killing every hostile until I exhaust the content and move on to the next place my quest log points to. Wow it's just like Fallout.

For Torment, it tries to be PS:T so just reduce it to its basic levels: Strangeness, lots of text, philosaphikool kuestions.

Strangeness already feels like trying too hard right on the starting zone we see on the crisis alpha, strong hint of design by checklist.

You know, you might be on to something here, even if you are going a bit overboard, but yeah W2 does not feel like a good rpg session. Underrail gets its right.
Then again you have to start somewhere.
I will be happy with a semi decent Torment with hopefully better combat. Also its not everyday we get a setting as nice as numanuma despite all its faults.


I still dream with Arzach the rpg.

 

[Morality Games]

You know, you might be on to something here, even if you are going a bit overboard, but yeah W2 does not feel like a good rpg session. Underrail gets its right.
Then again you have to start somewhere.
I will be happy with a semi decent Torment with hopefully better combat. Also its not everyday we get a setting as nice as numanuma despite all its faults.


I still dream with Arzach the rpg.

That's the problem. For the most part the reason why there is no RPG that does everything RPGs can do cohesively and well is because most of the elements associated with RPGs detract from or flat out contradict each other. Fallout came the closest, but there are just intrinsic limits. The fact combat in Planescape was a mostly atmospheric experience that didn't take much attention or effort was critical to how players digested the environments and world building. You dispatched enemies relatively quickly and then proceeded to investigate the next interesting environment. There was no need to ever think of the Fortress of Regrets as an action set piece.

Now environments in the new Torment are going to be action set pieces and the players will have to digest them in those terms because turn-based made combat strategic.

 

[Sensuki]

RTWP can be extremely strategical. There are two main differences between (standard) TB and RTWP

limited, structured player input vs constant player input

and

discrete resolution of unit actions vs simultaneous resolution of unit actions

Turn-based involves the game dictating to you when you are required to make decisions and you make those decisions with incomplete information because you are not totally sure what actions enemies are going to take.

Real-time with pause involves (ideally) active decision making whereby you make decisions as a response to the actions of enemies in real (game) time.

Which one is more strategical, tactical or reactive totally depends on the design, not the medium itself.

 

[Crescent Hawk]

I agree with Sensuki, its about execution really.

For the most part the reason why there is no RPG that does everything RPGs can do cohesively and well is because most of the elements associated with RPGs detract from or flat out contradict each other

I agree.
Maybe thats why direct tactical rpgs like those old Shining Forces and other tactic rpgs were good, you went on from fight to fight, and most of the decisions and challenges were in the combat itself, the reward was the bits of story in between, maybe some branching decisions.
Now a full on rpg for me, or at least what we expect it really, has to be semi sandbox, its drops you in the map like Deus EX or SS2 or Arcanum, Divinity, and you fool around with the system and save scum to hell and back.


Pillars of Eternity was Icewind Dale somewhat disguised as the ones above, or at least I expected it to be. But then again Baldurs Gate was all about murdering everything unless it talked to you.


Torment was an adventure game and visual novel. But I wonder what a injection of Arcanum or Morrowind would do to it.

 

[Fairfax]

RTWP can be extremely strategical. There are two main differences between (standard) TB and RTWP

limited, structured player input vs constant player input

and

discrete resolution of unit actions vs simultaneous resolution of unit actions

Turn-based involves the game dictating to you when you are required to make decisions and you make those decisions with incomplete information because you are not totally sure what actions enemies are going to take.

Real-time with pause involves (ideally) active decision making whereby you make decisions as a response to the actions of enemies in real (game) time.

Which one is more strategical, tactical or reactive totally depends on the design, not the medium itself.

Very true.

 

[you know what time it is]

Wasteland 2 was worse than PoE and Shadowrun combined, and I hate Shadowrun.