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People News Torment Kickstarter Update #49: Kevin Saunders leaves inXile, replaced by Chris Keenan

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Pretty sure you're the minority here, bud, if you think PoE was better than WL2. Don't kid yourself. WL2 smokes PoE, D:OS, Shadowrun but loses to Torment (Most probably), Underrail, AoD (Not on all fronts, though)
This whole place is a minority within a minority. I wouldn't be here if I cared about being in another one.
Man, that was a time of explosive growth on technology, gamming was expanding fast and it was almost the polar opposite of the stagnation that happens today, new IPs and ambitious projects were the rule. Developers got so excited and experimented with alot of shit, many that didn't turn out to be good. Interplay had alot of talent and creativity working for it and you can see the list of great games they released. It wasn't only Interplay that folded, Origin, Microprose, Infogrames, Atari and other companies or folded or were sold at that time.

Besides, all this talk of management is useless anyway, Activision has stellar management and Bobby Kotick can live a much higher life than Fargo even dreamed of but that isn't exactly good news for us. Bad management can send a project to development hell but good management doesn't make good games. It is talent and passion who makes good games and Interplay even with all its problems it had alot of both. I have my doubts about InXile but not even for Fargo's past but because I don't know if they have genuine passion for RPGs or they are just nostalgia baiting and I don't know if they have the talent to pull that cRPG renaissance thing, Wasteland 2 didn't impress me. The exit of Kevin and the replacement for Keenan doesn't exactly make me confident. I hope Colin, Ziets, MRY and the other guys aren't on the line to leave too as I don't trust the team who made Wasteland 2.
But Activision doesn't make or break the state of CRPGs, they're handling very different types of games and extremely different audiences. The most talented people in the industry seem to be the ones who struggle with the business side the most (which makes sense), but it's necessary, otherwise we'll keep seeing this cycle of good CRPG devs shutting down forever. Just look at HBS. They wanted a dev-only approach and almost went bankrupt with Shadowrun. Things only began to run smoothly after they hired a producer.
InXile seems cautiously optimistic. They seem to be focusing on crowdfunded projects for the time being, which prevents any surreal expansion (the $4-6 milliion they can raise in a campaign is not enough for a team larger than ~30-40 people). Although the New Orleans office might change things a bit.
Obsidian, however, raises many red flags. From 75 employees to 200 in 3 years. 100 of them working on a F2P World of Tanks clone that could crash and burn at any time. These talks of episodic crowdfunded Skyrim, etc. They're a shadow of Obsidian in its prime (with MCA, Ziets, Kevin and Gonzalez still on the payroll), but I still wouldn't like to see them struggle again, or worse.

As any other economist can tell, the number 1 advice for a company in a volatile sector is to keep a healthy cash reserve. If RPG studios save more money than they spend on expansions, they won't live on the edge all the time and could eventually become as successful and large as 2007 BioWare, but alas, good game devs rarely make good businessmen.
 
Unwanted

Douchebag

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Amsterdam
Pretty sure you're the minority here, bud, if you think PoE was better than WL2. Don't kid yourself. WL2 smokes PoE, D:OS, Shadowrun but loses to Torment (Most probably), Underrail, AoD (Not on all fronts, though)

In what ways does WL2 smoke D:OS and PoE? Certainly not the combat, story and player-story interactivity or graphics.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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I meant on Codex, obviously. There are people believing Jesus was a saviour, believe it or not, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there thought Fargo was.
Plenty of people did hail him here back in 2012 since he led the kickstarter CRPG revival. In fact that was a very odd and different time on the codex, full of hope and positive thoughts. Their design document/manifesto for Wasteland 2 managed to cautiously excite even the most jaded of us.

Now that those shit games are out we're back to business as usual.
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,610
Location
Denmark
In what ways does WL2 smoke D:OS and PoE? Certainly not the combat, story and player-story interactivity or graphics.

Combat being the only thing D:OS does better than WL2, yes. If you think the story, C&C or graphics of D:OS/PoE is better than WL2, than you most certainly are a crack addict. Lay off the drugs bruh
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,558
In what ways does WL2 smoke D:OS and PoE? Certainly not the combat, story and player-story interactivity or graphics.

WL2 is by far the best overall package out of the 3. Its sort of reminds me of DA: Origins. Nothing in that game was exceptional, but almost everything is at least passable. Both D:OS and PoE had done some things brilliantly, but have had far too many glaring issues.

Plenty of people did hail him here back in 2012 since he led the kickstarter CRPG revival. In fact that was a very odd and different time on the codex, full of hope and positive thoughts. Their design document/manifesto for Wasteland 2 managed to cautiously excite even the most jaded of us.

Now that those shit games are out we're back to business as usual.

Makes sense, quoting cause I can't brofist.

:brodex:
 

KevinV12000

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Some Lame-ass International Organization
I have to reserve judgment for later, being only about 3 hours into WL2, but I'm not seeing anything superior to PoE there so far. In fact, what I'm seeing most of is a lot of NPC's with incredibly stupid Guild-Wars-style PvP names shouting at me for being a fucking Ranger. That's really enjoyable. Sign me up.
 

throwaway

Cipher
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
492
That's actually one of main reasons why InExile still gets my money. I followed plenty of Kickstarters made by "legendary designers", and you know what? I'm never backing anything like that ever again. I've had quite enough of these people with their 'visiuns" and their "creativity", promising the stars and delivering utter shit.
Aside from the obvious one (I' assuming Garriot), who else do you mean?
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Reminds me that Obsidian did use that word in the Project Eternity Kickstarter description:

Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

If we only knew what exactly their roles were going to be...
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,558
Aside from the obvious one (I' assuming Garriot), who else do you mean?

Aside from the obvious one, who's indeed obvious, I mean basically everybody from the point & click crowd. Schafer, Jane Jensen, Charles Cecil, Neverhood guys, and whole other lot of them. The early Kickstarter rush was almost exclusively lead by creatives, and almost every game coming out of it, is a failure of epic proportions. The best one was probably Broken Age, which says a lot.

The Space Quest guys didn't even release their game yet, with current projected release for November 2016. That's fucking 4.5 years to make an adventure game. A genre so mechanically complicated, it was amongst first games ever made back in the 1970s.

You couldn't make this shit up if you tried.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
legendary They sure have an ego.
I don't think they do, really. Well, perhaps Sawyer. Obsidian was trying to get people hyped, etc. I don't even blame Obsidian for calling them "legendary designers", but I sure as hell blame them for making us think MCA and Tim Cain would have meaningful roles.
 

Lady_Error

█▓▒░ ░▒▓█
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As for Sir-Tech I don't know the details, so I can't say. They were making good games till the very end.

Sir-Tech is the epitome of mismanagement. First they cannot hold on to two different world-class RPG designers (Andrew Greenberg and David Bradley) and then they pump money into a bizarre abomination on the other side of the world (Stones of Arnhem).
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
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Messages
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MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
Fargo is however making ACTUAL cRPG's, unlike the shit from BioWare and Bethesda.

As for actual GOOD cRPG's...... it is still better (cRPG wise) than anything the AAA Developers are doing currently. :M
 

TedNugent

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
6,648
No, I don't buy Bioware games. I put literally two hours into Skyrim before I uninstalled, and most of that was spent in the character creation screen crafting the perfect orc face.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Sir-Tech is the epitome of mismanagement. First they cannot hold on to two different world-class RPG designers (Andrew Greenberg and David Bradley) and then they pump money into a bizarre abomination on the other side of the world (Stones of Arnhem).
Interesting. Wasn't Stones of Arnhem cancelled way before the company went bankrupt, though?

I found a forum post mentioning a thread in the codex by a former Sir-Tech employee, but apparently the link is broken: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/why-did-sir-tech-go-bankrupt-ebay-auction.53695/
Fargo is however making ACTUAL cRPG's, unlike the shit from BioWare and Bethesda.

As for actual GOOD cRPG's...... it is still better (cRPG wise) than anything the AAA Developers are doing currently. :M
Doesn't mean they can't learn a thing or two from BioWare and Bethesda about the business.
 

Lady_Error

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Interesting. Wasn't Stones of Arnhem cancelled way before the company went bankrupt, though?

Burning through that money certainly didn't help them. Add to that the decision to go popamole with gems like "Wizardry: Nemesis" and that it took them almost 10 years to create a real Wizardry sequel. You'd think that Jagged Alliance should have helped keeping them afloat, but apparently that too wasn't enough.

As to that thread, it has been moved to a part of the forum you cannot access yet.

Here is a cheat code though:

https://web.archive.org/web/2013061...-did-sir-tech-go-bankrupt-ebay-auction.53695/

It's only up to 2013 and some of the most interesting stuff happened after that.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Burning through that money certainly didn't help them. Add to that the decision to go popamole with gems like "Wizardry: Nemesis" and that it took them almost 10 years to create a real Wizardry sequel. You'd think that Jagged Alliance should have helped keeping them afloat, but apparently that too wasn't enough.

As to that thread, it has been moved to a part of the forum you cannot access yet.

Here is a cheat code though:

https://web.archive.org/web/2013061...-did-sir-tech-go-bankrupt-ebay-auction.53695/

It's only up to 2013 and some of the most interesting stuff happened after that.
Thank you. :salute:
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,735
Sir-Tech is the epitome of mismanagement. First they cannot hold on to two different world-class RPG designers (Andrew Greenberg and David Bradley) and then they pump money into a bizarre abomination on the other side of the world (Stones of Arnhem).

Interesting. Wasn't Stones of Arnhem cancelled way before the company went bankrupt, though?

The Stones of Arnhem stuff is fun, but they had a lot of other problems related to publishing decisions and the difficulties of surviving in a retailer-dominated market (something I find myself forgetting in these days of digital distribution).

I finally managed to trawl the internet archives for an interesting article from "The Adrenaline Vault" (where Sir Pete Hines used to write), published back in 1998 when the US/publishing part of Sir-Tech went bust. It was referenced in newsgroup posts on the bankruptcy that Robert Sirotek replied to:

Posted this newsgroup extract a few times now:
Robert Sirotek:
16/10/98

Eric C. Liebl wrote:

> Well...it was only a matter of time. Sirtech has been putting out more
> tripe than decent product for years...read the news article at avault. I
> got the impression we should be sorry for the Sirotek brothers...but from
> what I read they totally botched managing the company's direction. They
> should have stuck to their roots...created detailed RPGs. When they started
> branching out to adventure games, action shooters, etc trying in essence to
> land a lucky strike in the market without caring one bit what they were
> marketing they shot their own foot off. Sirtech the publisher would still
> be around if paid heed to their core audience...and still be making money.

I don't expect anybody to be sorry for us. The press article tried to
demonstrate the difficulties that go on in this industry, more often than not
completely out of view of game buying fans. I thought this would help educate
and maybe bring some good to the sad state of affairs out there.

Think about it. If the dynamics of the industry don't change to make the
horrendous cost of building quality product affordable, than nobody will invest
in buiding it. Then you guys will be stuck with nothing but junk.

Do you really thing we were completely ignorant of watching where we were
spending money, knowing all along this was coming out of my pocket? Come-on
boy, get a grip. Several people and firms did not deliver what we had
contracted, and we were caught in the middle. I'm not saying Sir-tech or the
execs were always perfect, far from it in that my crystal ball is as good as
anybody elses and mistakes were made in picking who we should trust.

You know, I found it amusing reading the raves of one notorious individual on
this site. The fact is, that individual and his team cost us $300,000 when he
failed to deliver product. So we killed the project to stop the bleeding. Yet
he would have you believe we are sinister. Perhaps it was a rude attempt to
bring noteriety to himself. Well we will see how good his product really is - I
hope so for his sake otherwise he will be the laughing stock of the net. When
will some developers realize that when they have been commissioned to do work at
somebody elses expense that their customer they should cater to is the one
paying the expenses.

Mr. Liebl, do yourself a favor and invest your time in trying to bring about
positive change for the industry. This way you will see more great product from
publishers, rather than taking needless pot-shots at people who have invested
much time in trying to bring good to this industry. If you do want to debate it
publicly, at least know the subject you debate.

But this article is worth a read:

Wednesday, October 14, 1998 - 13:17 CDT
Sir-tech Software Closes Computer Game Publishing Business

Sir-tech Software, Inc. is closing its office and ending its software publishing operation, closing the books on one of the industry's oldest game publishers. Norman Sirotek said the decision was forced by the changing nature of the computer industry that has put small, independent publishers at a disadvantage.

Sir-tech President Norman Sirotek and his brother, Robert Sirotek, Vice President, said the closing of the Ogdensburg office is a sad moment for a company that was for much of its 18-year-history, synonymous with the role playing genre of computer games. "After all, Sir-tech invented that kind of game for the personal computer." The company's software was consistently ranked among the top by the nation's computer game magazines.

Unfortunately, while the computer gaming business grew from a small cottage industry with a small, but faithful cult following, to a mainstream audience of millions, Sir-tech found that as the audience grew, much bigger companies, with much bigger treasuries, entered the market, muscling aside a host of small publishers for the limited amount of shelf space at retail stores.

Sir-tech, like hundreds of other small software publishers, ended up a victim of industry giants that could outspend, out advertise and could afford to lose millions when their games flopped.

Last year, more than 4,000 games were released by a host of computer software publishers to consumers. Only two percent, about 50, became hits, earning millions for their publishers. About eight percent, roughly 320, broke even or made a small profit for their publishers.

The major reason, say the Sirotek brothers, was the radical changes that the software market had undergone over the past two decades.

Only a few of the 4,000 games produced ever made it onto the shelves of software retailers, like Electronics Boutique, Babbages, Software City, and others.

Sir-tech found that with retailers besieged by hundreds of companies vying for the right to place their products on retail shelves, the stores could demand, and get, outright payments from publishers just for the privilege of putting a handful of boxes on their shelves.

And while the retailers once loyally kept games on their shelves for months, giving publishers a chance to coordinate sales and marketing campaigns to move their products out to consumers, stores now measure shelf life in terms of weeks. This left very little room for error which could cost the publisher dearly.

If a game sits on a shelf for more than a few weeks, store buyers demand price cuts to move them out, drastically cutting into the profit margins of already-hard-pressed small publishing houses. And after a short-time, if they still haven't been sold, store chains ship them back to the publisher, demanding a full refund.

Stores no longer make the majority of their profits from unit sales as it used to be in the first decade of the fledgling software industry, but now rely on profits generated from numerous marketing programs they demand from publishers for the right to be on their shelves.

In today's more cut throat publishing business, only those companies with multimillion dollar wallets can afford the risks and pitfalls of the industry.

Since the cost of producing one computer game today can cost well over a million dollars during its two plus years of development time, publishers find themselves facing a big risk if their game does not attract many more retail customers. It has become critical to have a huge retail distribution network to have a chance of tapping into the mass-market to recoup your investment. With so many products being released, most of which are marginal in quality, company officials did not think it could find the necessary retail support from enough chain stores to be profitable.

In the old days, eighteen years ago when Sir-tech started, a company needed only one talented programmer and maybe an artist to invent a game.

Today, audiences demand animated movies in their CD games, requiring musical scores, artists, animators, script writers, programmers and a score of others to develop intricate games, innovative enough to stand out from the pack of thousands.

Small publishers like Sir-tech found that they had to spend over a million dollars up front on development, marketing and advertising over a two year period before they would even receive any idea whether anyone liked their game.

If consumers were not enchanted and willing to buy them immediately, a firm could suddenly find itself with thousands of games being shipped back from retail chains.

Sir-tech's owners found that once gentlemanly business of publishing had come to resemble a long odds crap shoot at a high stakes casino, the biggest difference being that gambling establishments offered better odds.

But Sir-tech found they didn't just have to worry about their own finances. Increasingly, they found over the past three years that fortunes could be won or lost, even when their own games were still popular with their fans.

The once prosperous company suffered a major set back two years ago when they were releasing Deadly Games, the second episode in their award winning Jagged Alliance strategy game series. With Christmas approaching, Neostar, owner of two of the nation's biggest retail store chains, Babbages and Software Etc. ordered more than 5,000 copies of the popular game. Shortly after the games arrived at stores around the nation, the retail chain filed for bankruptcy. Under federal bankruptcy law, that meant the store did not have to pay for the products. Sir-tech found that it was one of thousands of creditors, waiting in line for a settlement.

Making matters even worse, the bankrupt company was allowed to sell them at a discounted price to other competing retailers, meaning that Sir-tech found itself competing with a flood of lower priced versions.

Some retailers even sent back the copies shipped to them by Sir-tech, demanding a full refund, while putting the lower priced version bought from the bankrupt company on their shelves.

That cost the Ogdensburg company more than $400,000.

At the time, the Sirotek brothers absorbed the hit, chalking it up to the vagaries of a cutthroat market place, just one of the risks a small company that only releases one or two products a year can face.

But they felt that one of the solutions to their problems was to increase the number of titles shipped out by their company. They developed a relationship with a British company and agreed to publish their games in the U.S.

The British company agreed to make changes to the products to meet the standards expected in the more competitive American market. But the relationship soon foundered when the British programmers refused to make the changes demanded by Sir-tech, even though the Ogdensburg company had already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars promoting and advertising the games.

Sir-tech found itself forced to publish the games in hopes of recouping its investment. The games flopped. One of the major gaming magazines named one of the games the "second worst game of the year." Retailers shipped them back by the thousands. Sir-tech dropped the line, for fear that the retailers and consumers would associate the poor quality of the games with Sir-tech's own award winning line of titles. The debacle cost them dearly.

The company pinned its hopes last year in two well known role-playing products it had acquired distribution rights to.

But until these were ready, Sir-tech had another game it had commissioned for development under a partnership with a Salt Lake City software development company to produce a state of the art computer game that could also be played over the Internet.

After pouring several hundred thousand dollars into this venture, the game never materialized. A version was produced, but it failed to measure up to either expectations or the specifications written in the contract. Sir-tech refused to publish it.

The result was another major loss of wasted manpower time, marketing and resources.

By last spring, Sir-tech was facing tough choices, none of them too pleasant to contemplate. The company had expanded its staff to handle the increased workload associated with publishing four times as many products as it normally produces. But when the British line of products failed, Sir-tech found itself laying off some of the extra staff it had hired. Many employees admitted, they had almost nothing to do.

After a second round of layoffs, the company decided that publishing had become too fraught with risks. The company decided to close its Ogdensburg publishing operation.

Norman Sirotek says he's sad to see the end of a company that he and his brother built over a span of almost two decades.

But he says that the company helped him and his brother see the world, make friends in a host of countries, and learn the intricacies of business and finance in a way few others see.

"My father would always say the software publishing business was akin to standing with one foot on a banana peel with the other foot on a grave, while drinking champagne and eating caviar," he joked. "It's amazing we were able to do as well as we did for as long as we did."

Sirotek says that in recent years, as the company found itself in a more cut throat business environment where promises were seldom kept and agreements seldom lasted, the 16-hour days became less enjoyable.

Reported by: Brian Clair
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,293
No, I don't buy Bioware games. I put literally two hours into Skyrim before I uninstalled, and most of that was spent in the character creation screen crafting the perfect orc face.
That is too bad, putting 10+ hours into Skyrim should be a requirement for any Codex member so they can experience the horror of a world where only Bethesda and Bioware are making RPGs.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
The Stones of Arnhem stuff is fun, but they had a lot of other problems related to publishing decisions and the difficulties of surviving in a retailer-dominated market (something I find myself forgetting in these days of digital distribution).

I finally managed to trawl the internet archives for an interesting article from "The Adrenaline Vault" (where Sir Pete Hines used to write), published back in 1998 when the US/publishing part of Sir-Tech went bust. It was referenced in newsgroup posts on the bankruptcy that Robert Sirotek replied to:

Posted this newsgroup extract a few times now:
Robert Sirotek:
16/10/98

Eric C. Liebl wrote:

> Well...it was only a matter of time. Sirtech has been putting out more
> tripe than decent product for years...read the news article at avault. I
> got the impression we should be sorry for the Sirotek brothers...but from
> what I read they totally botched managing the company's direction. They
> should have stuck to their roots...created detailed RPGs. When they started
> branching out to adventure games, action shooters, etc trying in essence to
> land a lucky strike in the market without caring one bit what they were
> marketing they shot their own foot off. Sirtech the publisher would still
> be around if paid heed to their core audience...and still be making money.

I don't expect anybody to be sorry for us. The press article tried to
demonstrate the difficulties that go on in this industry, more often than not
completely out of view of game buying fans. I thought this would help educate
and maybe bring some good to the sad state of affairs out there.

Think about it. If the dynamics of the industry don't change to make the
horrendous cost of building quality product affordable, than nobody will invest
in buiding it. Then you guys will be stuck with nothing but junk.

Do you really thing we were completely ignorant of watching where we were
spending money, knowing all along this was coming out of my pocket? Come-on
boy, get a grip. Several people and firms did not deliver what we had
contracted, and we were caught in the middle. I'm not saying Sir-tech or the
execs were always perfect, far from it in that my crystal ball is as good as
anybody elses and mistakes were made in picking who we should trust.

You know, I found it amusing reading the raves of one notorious individual on
this site. The fact is, that individual and his team cost us $300,000 when he
failed to deliver product. So we killed the project to stop the bleeding. Yet
he would have you believe we are sinister. Perhaps it was a rude attempt to
bring noteriety to himself. Well we will see how good his product really is - I
hope so for his sake otherwise he will be the laughing stock of the net. When
will some developers realize that when they have been commissioned to do work at
somebody elses expense that their customer they should cater to is the one
paying the expenses.

Mr. Liebl, do yourself a favor and invest your time in trying to bring about
positive change for the industry. This way you will see more great product from
publishers, rather than taking needless pot-shots at people who have invested
much time in trying to bring good to this industry. If you do want to debate it
publicly, at least know the subject you debate.

But this article is worth a read:

Wednesday, October 14, 1998 - 13:17 CDT
Sir-tech Software Closes Computer Game Publishing Business

Sir-tech Software, Inc. is closing its office and ending its software publishing operation, closing the books on one of the industry's oldest game publishers. Norman Sirotek said the decision was forced by the changing nature of the computer industry that has put small, independent publishers at a disadvantage.

Sir-tech President Norman Sirotek and his brother, Robert Sirotek, Vice President, said the closing of the Ogdensburg office is a sad moment for a company that was for much of its 18-year-history, synonymous with the role playing genre of computer games. "After all, Sir-tech invented that kind of game for the personal computer." The company's software was consistently ranked among the top by the nation's computer game magazines.

Unfortunately, while the computer gaming business grew from a small cottage industry with a small, but faithful cult following, to a mainstream audience of millions, Sir-tech found that as the audience grew, much bigger companies, with much bigger treasuries, entered the market, muscling aside a host of small publishers for the limited amount of shelf space at retail stores.

Sir-tech, like hundreds of other small software publishers, ended up a victim of industry giants that could outspend, out advertise and could afford to lose millions when their games flopped.

Last year, more than 4,000 games were released by a host of computer software publishers to consumers. Only two percent, about 50, became hits, earning millions for their publishers. About eight percent, roughly 320, broke even or made a small profit for their publishers.

The major reason, say the Sirotek brothers, was the radical changes that the software market had undergone over the past two decades.

Only a few of the 4,000 games produced ever made it onto the shelves of software retailers, like Electronics Boutique, Babbages, Software City, and others.

Sir-tech found that with retailers besieged by hundreds of companies vying for the right to place their products on retail shelves, the stores could demand, and get, outright payments from publishers just for the privilege of putting a handful of boxes on their shelves.

And while the retailers once loyally kept games on their shelves for months, giving publishers a chance to coordinate sales and marketing campaigns to move their products out to consumers, stores now measure shelf life in terms of weeks. This left very little room for error which could cost the publisher dearly.

If a game sits on a shelf for more than a few weeks, store buyers demand price cuts to move them out, drastically cutting into the profit margins of already-hard-pressed small publishing houses. And after a short-time, if they still haven't been sold, store chains ship them back to the publisher, demanding a full refund.

Stores no longer make the majority of their profits from unit sales as it used to be in the first decade of the fledgling software industry, but now rely on profits generated from numerous marketing programs they demand from publishers for the right to be on their shelves.

In today's more cut throat publishing business, only those companies with multimillion dollar wallets can afford the risks and pitfalls of the industry.

Since the cost of producing one computer game today can cost well over a million dollars during its two plus years of development time, publishers find themselves facing a big risk if their game does not attract many more retail customers. It has become critical to have a huge retail distribution network to have a chance of tapping into the mass-market to recoup your investment. With so many products being released, most of which are marginal in quality, company officials did not think it could find the necessary retail support from enough chain stores to be profitable.

In the old days, eighteen years ago when Sir-tech started, a company needed only one talented programmer and maybe an artist to invent a game.

Today, audiences demand animated movies in their CD games, requiring musical scores, artists, animators, script writers, programmers and a score of others to develop intricate games, innovative enough to stand out from the pack of thousands.

Small publishers like Sir-tech found that they had to spend over a million dollars up front on development, marketing and advertising over a two year period before they would even receive any idea whether anyone liked their game.

If consumers were not enchanted and willing to buy them immediately, a firm could suddenly find itself with thousands of games being shipped back from retail chains.

Sir-tech's owners found that once gentlemanly business of publishing had come to resemble a long odds crap shoot at a high stakes casino, the biggest difference being that gambling establishments offered better odds.

But Sir-tech found they didn't just have to worry about their own finances. Increasingly, they found over the past three years that fortunes could be won or lost, even when their own games were still popular with their fans.

The once prosperous company suffered a major set back two years ago when they were releasing Deadly Games, the second episode in their award winning Jagged Alliance strategy game series. With Christmas approaching, Neostar, owner of two of the nation's biggest retail store chains, Babbages and Software Etc. ordered more than 5,000 copies of the popular game. Shortly after the games arrived at stores around the nation, the retail chain filed for bankruptcy. Under federal bankruptcy law, that meant the store did not have to pay for the products. Sir-tech found that it was one of thousands of creditors, waiting in line for a settlement.

Making matters even worse, the bankrupt company was allowed to sell them at a discounted price to other competing retailers, meaning that Sir-tech found itself competing with a flood of lower priced versions.

Some retailers even sent back the copies shipped to them by Sir-tech, demanding a full refund, while putting the lower priced version bought from the bankrupt company on their shelves.

That cost the Ogdensburg company more than $400,000.

At the time, the Sirotek brothers absorbed the hit, chalking it up to the vagaries of a cutthroat market place, just one of the risks a small company that only releases one or two products a year can face.

But they felt that one of the solutions to their problems was to increase the number of titles shipped out by their company. They developed a relationship with a British company and agreed to publish their games in the U.S.

The British company agreed to make changes to the products to meet the standards expected in the more competitive American market. But the relationship soon foundered when the British programmers refused to make the changes demanded by Sir-tech, even though the Ogdensburg company had already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars promoting and advertising the games.

Sir-tech found itself forced to publish the games in hopes of recouping its investment. The games flopped. One of the major gaming magazines named one of the games the "second worst game of the year." Retailers shipped them back by the thousands. Sir-tech dropped the line, for fear that the retailers and consumers would associate the poor quality of the games with Sir-tech's own award winning line of titles. The debacle cost them dearly.

The company pinned its hopes last year in two well known role-playing products it had acquired distribution rights to.

But until these were ready, Sir-tech had another game it had commissioned for development under a partnership with a Salt Lake City software development company to produce a state of the art computer game that could also be played over the Internet.

After pouring several hundred thousand dollars into this venture, the game never materialized. A version was produced, but it failed to measure up to either expectations or the specifications written in the contract. Sir-tech refused to publish it.

The result was another major loss of wasted manpower time, marketing and resources.

By last spring, Sir-tech was facing tough choices, none of them too pleasant to contemplate. The company had expanded its staff to handle the increased workload associated with publishing four times as many products as it normally produces. But when the British line of products failed, Sir-tech found itself laying off some of the extra staff it had hired. Many employees admitted, they had almost nothing to do.

After a second round of layoffs, the company decided that publishing had become too fraught with risks. The company decided to close its Ogdensburg publishing operation.

Norman Sirotek says he's sad to see the end of a company that he and his brother built over a span of almost two decades.

But he says that the company helped him and his brother see the world, make friends in a host of countries, and learn the intricacies of business and finance in a way few others see.

"My father would always say the software publishing business was akin to standing with one foot on a banana peel with the other foot on a grave, while drinking champagne and eating caviar," he joked. "It's amazing we were able to do as well as we did for as long as we did."

Sirotek says that in recent years, as the company found itself in a more cut throat business environment where promises were seldom kept and agreements seldom lasted, the 16-hour days became less enjoyable.

Reported by: Brian Clair

Now this is gold, not edgy people trolling about things they don’t understand. Thanks, bra!
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,708
You'd think that Jagged Alliance should have helped keeping them afloat, but apparently that too wasn't enough.

JA2 bombed/didn't meet sales expectations.

http://boards.jaggedalliance.com/in...onement-release/page__view__findpost__p__3430 (apparently a dead link now, oh well)

I just thought it was worth pointing out that speeding up the game play and moving to a 3d engine was where we were going with JA3 anyways.... so this evolution (if you want to call it that) would have happened even if the game was left in the original designers hands. We really didn't have much of a choice financially as JA2 sells weren't what we were hoping for despite several awards and high scores. Both "real time" and "3D engines" was what the mass majority wanted. To our defense, however, Ian made it very clear that the game would also have a "Turn based" option that would provide all the depth and more that was available in JA2....Because that's the way he loved it.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
Burning through that money certainly didn't help them. Add to that the decision to go popamole with gems like "Wizardry: Nemesis" and that it took them almost 10 years to create a real Wizardry sequel. You'd think that Jagged Alliance should have helped keeping them afloat, but apparently that too wasn't enough.

As to that thread, it has been moved to a part of the forum you cannot access yet.

Here is a cheat code though:

https://web.archive.org/web/2013061...-did-sir-tech-go-bankrupt-ebay-auction.53695/

It's only up to 2013 and some of the most interesting stuff happened after that.

:salute:
 

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