The New DOOM Thread (2016)

[shihonage]

I fucked up that sentence... sorry my bad. i guess demons "adopted human technology" since they overrun the whole complex.

I hope doom 4 gets the whole demons thing more serious. Since most of the creatures in doom 3 end up looking like stroggs...

Cyberdemon and Spidermind in Doom1 were pretty much Strogg too. Doom2 added plasma spiders and
<----- this guy, all of whom are too, cyborgs.

 

[Metro]

The guns feel weak (stiff and bad animations, not enough impact reaction and too low damage in some cases.), at least in the first two games, I've yet to play the third.

Didn't notice this at all. And compared to the original Doom games? Nostalgia is clouding your judgment.

It also lacks variation in terms of level layouts, encounters and that sort of things. Some of the levels are really cool, I remember for example this gravity defying wall you see enemies run down from and that they did some fun things with fog and such but they never really did anything with it, gameplay wise I mean, it's always just gimmicks used once or twice for novelty or to awe the player. It's pretty gud otherwise, but it's not up there.

Did you miss the part where I said it's not about level design?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Serious Sam is this:

But in 3D and first person. Which is why it's great.

Suck it haters





However, even I have to admit that there was a lot of uninspired stuff about Serious Sam First Encounter, a few levels in particular (like that Egyptian city communal quarter, fuck that level) were really bad, and sometimes you'd just get feelings of deja vu, even the secrets felt pretty eeeeh at times. But not so much in Second Encounter - SE took everything from FE and made it at least ten times better.

At its release, I only played FE's demo, and it didn't grab me enough to pirate the full game, but after going through SE's, I had to get it immediately. Interestingly enough, I've only returned to First Encounter again when it got the HD version. And it was still kind of boring :/

As it is, Serious Sam 3 is imo a better game than FE, even though its start is kinda slow. But once it starts going, it can even match SE's quality in some places.

 

[balmorar]

Doom = Doom 2 = Quake = Quake 2 = Serious Sam = Painkiller

No = No =No = No =No = this is seriously wrong.

In your heart you know it's right.

Perhaps in your retarded brain it is.

They are all the same, "doom clones", just with different skins, presentation. There are some minor differences in gameplay but only because game engine technology evolves over time. Doom only doesn't have Serious Sam size of levels and amount of enemies because Carmack didn't have the technology back then, if he had then doom would have been similar in these aspects. If you fail to realize this then go shoot yourself in the head you retarted little faggot.

 

[shihonage]

They are all the same, "doom clones", just with different skins, presentation. There are some minor differences in gameplay but onlybecause game engine technology evolves over time. Doom only doesn't have Serious Sam size of levels and amount of enemies because Carmack didn't have the technology back then, if he had then doom would have been similar in these aspects. If you fail to realize this then go shoot yourself in the head you retarted little faggot.

The foul stench of a Fallout 3 fan. It never changes.

 

[dnf]

Except this one is factually wrong on plain sight. One thing is to create a fallacy over a open world 3d game saying it coudn't be made back then, the other is just making shit up that doesn't hold up to reality, like saying DooM levels is smaller and can't afford the amount of enemies SS have.

 

[DraQ]

It suffers from bland weapons (bar the Grenade Launcher and the Railgun)

Actually, the weapons, although mostly boring aren't cripplingly so on their own.
Hyperblaster, chaingun and MG are genuinely interesting due to their little mechanical quirks (spin down delay, spin up and inability to stop firing immediately, recoil), but the rest are workable at worst.


RG, however, doesn't exactly work in Q2's favour - it's effectively an SSG that works at long range and is even stronger, while using up very little ammo.

The problem is that that combined with enemies the weapons fail to deliver entertaining gameplay.
SSG being slow? Well, too bad that you can stun most of the enemies with it for long enough to reload and finish them off before they recover. Slow attack animations and ease of stunlocking kill the difference between different enemies and weapon types, the fact that enemies, despite being heavily armored tincans, don't use armor mechanics player does also removes a lot of weapon diversity - if heavier enemies had equivalent of combat or battle armour, CG, MG and both shotguns wouldn't be nearly as universal as they are.


Other than that level layouts are adequate to good, but the environment design just blows by lacking distinctive landmarks.

Betrayed as another atmosphere fag. Opinion thereby invalid.

It must be awfully convenient to avoid actual discussion by constructing such a "crushing" ad personam.


More so given that the bulk of my critique of Q2 to date has been aimed at its mechanics and gameplay (if only because atmosphere is too subjective and intangible to discuss in length).

Had Q2 actually had good gameplay, the lack of atmosphere would have been forgivable.
The problem is that the gameplay was monotonous and repetitive, largely thanks to wussy, slowly reacting and dumb enemies that were also few in numbers.
Better, more dangerous enemies would also help the atmosphere in that they would justify the whole fuss about Stroggs.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The problem is that gameplay wise Quake 2 was better than Unreal. This is where your opinion ceases to have meaning, when you cannot recognize reality for what it is. Even Unreal's famous AI routines were actually a detriment to gameplay, since the enemies were a bit too smart in that metagaming kinda way, so that everything reduced to two things. Skaarj AI routine? Use hitscan weapons. Everything else? Use whatever weapon you have to save bullets from hitscan weapons. Wow, so gameplay, much complexity. And the difficulty was more frustrating than anything, fostering savescumming since the results of a fight were so capricious regardless of the skill of the player.

But see, in your argument all those problems are completely glossed over and all you are left with the basic statement that Unreal's AI was superior to that of Quake 2, which, while technically true, doesn't tell the whole story, and in particular doesn't describe what the practical results of this actually are in terms of real gameplay, I.E, fighting enemies in Unreal just wasn't fun, it was simply irritating.

 

[DraQ]

The problem is that gameplay wise Quake 2 was better than Unreal.

Except it was not so it was not.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/i-just-played-quake-2.70053/page-2#post-1993210
Yawn.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The opening line alone is garbage. Railgun was one of the best weapons in any FPS game. If it shone in Quake 3 specifically is because your opponents in that game really required the best that weapon could offer in terms of actual player skill, where as enemies in Quake 2 were too lumbering for that (though still fun to impale with muh awesome laser beam).

Yawn indeed.

Ho, and this:

but Q2 raped Q1 way harder than Bethesda did rape FO with FO3

 

[DefJam101]

Quake 2 had better gunplay...than...Painkiller.

No, not at all. Painkiller's weapons and movement are by far its greatest strength and they both put basically any non-Quake 1/Doom/Quake 3 shooter to shame.

But otherwise yes. Doom and the like are on a whole other level. Level design is teh hard, apparently.

 

[DefJam101]

I'm confused as to why people are citing ineffectual enemies as a flaw of Quake 2 when you could literally just run right past everything in the entire game in Quake 1.

 

[Euronymous]

I prefer Quake II's physics over the first Quake, but the atmosphere, artistic direction, level design, weapons and soundtrack are so much better than Quake II.

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but Mark is pretty pissed: http://i.imgur.com/btTHake.png

Apparently id Tech 6 is this: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fe...erview_rage_id_tech_6_doom_4_details_and_more

 

[dnf]

And why should you run away from enemies in the first place, on an FPS of all places?

 

[Morgoth]

Apparently id Tech 6 is this: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fe...erview_rage_id_tech_6_doom_4_details_and_more

That interview is from 2008, ergo irrelevant.

 

[abija]

People should be punished for not reading shit they link. It's just a typo in the title...

 

[DraQ]

The opening line alone is garbage. Railgun was one of the best weapons in any FPS game. If it shone in Quake 3 specifically is because your opponents in that game really required the best that weapon could offer in terms of actual player skill, where as enemies in Quake 2 were too lumbering for that (though still fun to impale with muh awesome laser beam).

Good or not (it lacked subtlety of a proper sniper weapon and quirks of proper punch-thru-shit railgun which is what I criticized, though overall it was solid if unimaginative piece of offensive hardware - typical of Id) it was overpowered in the context:

• minimal ammo consumption - you could barely use up any slugs doing the same sort of mayhem that would take you half of your stored ammo if you used CG or BFG instead.
• it effectively superseded already broken SSG in terms of brokenness and gameplay niche - even higher damage and game-breaking stun at roughly the same rate of fire, equivalent ammo consumption, but at arbitrarily long range and with ability to pierce multiple foes - there was no gameplay situation in which SSG would be effective but RG wouldn't.

If RG was slower to fire and allowed you to carry about 25 slugs then it would be balanced, if most cybernetic enemies (non mutants) had some actual armor, but weaker enemies sometimes attacked in droves then SSG and CG would be balanced - and more interesting to use - as well.
In short, the enemies you fought in Q2 prevented differences between weapons from manifesting as actual gameplay factors - if you saw a gunner, you coud stunlock it with a burst of MG and kill it, or stunlock it by shooting it once with SSG then kil it, or do the exact same thing with RG or RL, if you saw a tank, you could kill it (or two at once) by just bursting with CG before it could even react, or shoot it with BFG, or burst it with HB for exact same effect.
The thing is all those, very different mechanically, weapons performed the same in same gameplay situation because the gameplay failed to be more involved than executing hapless, effectively unarmoured (in terms of mechanics) tincans one by one.

Q3 had completely different dynamics and was focused on MP - apples and oranges.

Also:

the enemies were a bit too smart

And the difficulty was more frustrating than anything, fostering savescumming since the results of a fight were so capricious regardless of the skill of the player.

Git gud.

I.E, fighting enemies in Unreal just wasn't fun, it was simply irritating.

Since in Q2 you weren't fighting enemies as much as executing them, pretty much every other FPS wins the SP gameplay comparison with Q2 by default.

I'm confused as to why people are citing ineffectual enemies as a flaw of Quake 2 when you could literally just run right past everything in the entire game in Quake 1.

Except in Q2 you can not run past them but basically walk up to them and kill them dead, one by one.

They are supposed to be menacing space cyborgs, but it is you who can put up the T-800 police station routine with them, except without getting shot nearly as much (though for similar effect if you do - enemy attacks have no impact in Q2 which is another nail to its coffin - why is enemy damage halved in an already piss easy game?)

 

[Morgoth]

Even Unreal's famous AI routines were actually a detriment to gameplay, since the enemies were a bit too smart[...]. And the difficulty was more frustrating than anything, fostering savescumming since the results of a fight were so capricious regardless of the skill of the player.

Holy shit Lyric Suite.

 

[DraQ]

Even Unreal's famous AI routines were actually a detriment to gameplay, since the enemies were a bit too smart[...]. And the difficulty was more frustrating than anything, fostering savescumming since the results of a fight were so capricious regardless of the skill of the player.

Holy shit Lyric Suite.

He just went full retard.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Git gud.

This is an obvious example of how your arguments operate. Its all about semantics with you. "Enemies are too smart? Hurr durr u r stoopid". Except that wasn't the point, because "smart" doesn't necessarily mean good in this case. It all depends on how its done. A good example for instance is hitscan enemies with perfect accuracy, which are "difficult", but not necessarily fun, and "getting good" is besides the point in that situation, as it is with Unreal.

Essentially, the problem is that there is no real interaction between the movement of the enemy and that of the player, no real rhythm, and therefore no actual "game play", which was aggravated by the fact the enemies didn't respond very well to your own hits. Either way, their routines were written to be too erratic to be predictable, which reduced your strategies and paradoxically made player skill less important and made save scumming too inviting, even if Epic obviously tried to compensate by filling the game with ammo and health, which reduced the difficulty significantly. Now it would have been great if only the Skaarj operated that way, since it is not uncommon for a game to have that one erratic and unpredictable enemy, which is cool. But the whole game was made like this. Even dodging missiles from those lumbering brutes felt meta as fuck sometimes, since missiles would randomly be fired on the sides, which made it feel like the enemy was psychic at times.

Now don't take me wrong here. I think whoever wrote those routines was an extremely talented programmer (i take he is the same guy who wrote the AI for the bots, which was ace), and by modern standards that game was a masterpiece in every sense. But compared to things like Doom or Quake, Unreal just felt irritating and unfun, and Quake 2, despite its flaws, was definitely in that class of games, where gaminess was king and enemies weren't made uber smart purely because of how good that might have looked on paper, regardless of the results in terms of actual gameplay.

 

[shihonage]

Lyric Suite DraQ is very autistic about Unreal and Quake2. His measure of a game's quality is based on its difficulty first and foremost. He's got tunnel vision. Don't waste your time.

 

[DraQ]

His measure of a game's quality is based on its difficulty first and foremost.

That's why I like Morrowind so much.
Probably.

Also PS:T.

He's got tunnel vision.

Unlike all the enlightened Q2 fans on board, I presume.

The thing is I can and have already explained in detail why and how Q2 sucks, while all you can apperently do in response is articuating vocalizing your butthurt about it.
pictured: butthurt.

If you're right and I'm wrong why can't you rebuke what I said?

A good example for instance is hitscan enemies with perfect accuracy, which are "difficult", but not necessarily fun

Which fortunately isn't the case with Unreal.
Besides even hitscan enemies with perfect accuracy may work if you get some means of dealing with them that doesn't make encounters either formulaic or random.
Q2 is all formulaic.

no real rhythm

Are you a nigga?
Because that's the only reason I can accept (postironically, of course, with a hint of faux-racism) for prioritizing rhythm in an FPS.

and therefore no actual "game play", which was aggravated by the fact the enemies didn't respond very well to your own hits. Either way, their routines were written to be too erratic to be predictable, which reduced your strategies and paradoxically made player skill less important

Player skill is about analyzing the changing situation then reacting apropriately, not coming out with some inane "strategy" consisting of looped several seconds of input that can be applied mindlessly in 100% of encounters.

And Q2 effectively features no player skill element because its skill ceiling is somewhere between severe Parkinson disease and suffering from hypothyroidism in one's childhood.

Now it would have been great if only the Skaarj operated that way, since it is not uncommon for a game to have that one erratic and unpredictable enemy, which is cool. But the whole game was made like this. Even dodging missiles from those lumbering brutes felt meta as fuck sometimes, since missiles would randomly be fired on the sides, which made it feel like the enemy was psychic at times.

Yes, being able to hit moving target is being fucking psychic.
How about you actually watch the enemy and projectiles and move out of their way instead of mindlessly moving in a pattern you feel ought to be effective?

People like you are why

were invented and prosper so well.

Now don't take me wrong here. I think whoever wrote those routines was an extremely talented programmer (i take he is the same guy who wrote the AI for the bots, which was ace), and by modern standards that game was a masterpiece in every sense.

Aprreciated.

But compared to things like Doom or Quake, Unreal just felt irritating and unfun

I can understand why someone may not like the sort of combat Unreal has, with relatively few but individually challenging, "dodgy" enemies. Really, it isn't everyone's cup of tea.
The problem is that Q2 was unfun compared to just about everything else as well - no matter where you came from Q2 lost.
If your ideal is Doom like combat then Q2 is still shit because you get very few enemies (that deal vanishingly low damage meaning they can't get medieval on your ass) that are nevertheless slow to react (meaning they can't buffer their slow reaction speed with the fact you won't manage to take them all out before they get medieval on your ass) and that don't really differ much in terms of gameplay.
For example in Doom a tomato was very different from baron of hell due to pain chance alone - tomato could be easily chaingunned or chainsawed into stunlock but BoH couldn't.
OTOH in Q2 if you can stunlock something you can stunlock it all the same with MG and SSG.

Quake 2, despite its flaws, was definitely in that class of games, where gaminess was king

Built in godmode is not gaminess and doesn't result in good gameplay.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

People should be punished for not reading shit they link. It's just a typo in the title...

You should read shit others link though, because carmack mentions a future tech 6 in a single sentence on page 2.

 

[agentorange]

What they should of done was added the PS1 ambient music for Doom/Final Doom. They had the better soundtracks if I recall.

Just found em

I can't play without the PSX soundtrack. I use it in all of my doom installs.

How do you get the PSX soundtrack to play during the game?

 

[bussinrounds]

I'm playing it separately through the VLC/surround sound... making the track loop, switching tracks at each stage.. Turning down the music on the ps3 game..