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The New DOOM Thread (2016)

DefJam101

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
8,047
Location
Cybernegro HQ
brutal doom is like doom, only worse and designed by a child

this game will almost certainly be like brutal doom, only worse and designed by a committee
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Quake 2 was running around boxes filled with stacked boxes, shooting boxes at (hapless) boxes.
Neither alternative is very appealing.

They don't design actual LEVELS. DOOM had actual levels, Duke3D and Quake and Unreal had actual levels. Croteam has "a series of empty spaces in which you grind meat".

It removes a whole strategic dimension from gameplay. Without levels, there's no concept of "enemy placement", because their position no longer matters. There's no exploration or even a modicum of thought involved.
:bro:

Of course games like Unreal also had alternative routes for other/respawning players to let them join/return to the bettle in a locked-in area.
 
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Arcks

Educated
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
90
I try to not use the rose-colored glasses argument, but in regards to Serious Sam it's hard not to. And they hardly improved since then. Croteam's approach to level design is either "let's have an open field and plomp a few random walls around", or "let's trap the player in a cave and shower him with monsters".

They don't design actual LEVELS. DOOM had actual levels, Duke3D and Quake and Unreal had actual levels. Croteam has "a series of empty spaces in which you grind meat".

It removes a whole strategic dimension from gameplay. Without levels, there's no concept of "enemy placement", because their position no longer matters. There's no exploration or even a modicum of thought involved.

It's not "different". It's retarded. Look at the SS3 trailer, 90% of it is just the guy running around empty space shooting whatever's in front of him. They raised the polygon counts, but hardly anything has changed.

There's nothing "crafted" about this franchise. It is both highly derivative and extremely mediocre. You can walk in any direction, but it hardly ever matters. Kinda like a Bethesda game.

I don't think you actually played SS3. At least in those games you have to aim, and not just play pop-a-mole with enemies.
 

BelisariuS.F

Augur
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
388
I don't understand Serious Sam so it means it's shit.

Your constant claiming that SS is bad because it doesn't have complex level design is like claiming that, say, Dark Souls is bad because it doesn't have complex party-based turn-based tactical combat. SS (and other FPSes of that type) is not about levels. It just isn't (mostly one feature of level affects how particular encounter plays out in SS - it's size). SS is about constantly switching between weapons, depending on enemy types, quantity of particular enemy types, their position in relation to you, how much ammo you have left (using the most effective weapon against a particular enemy type during particular encounter may not be optimal option if ammo is scarce for this weapon). It's about precise aiming, to not waste ammo. It's is about constant movement, dodging, being aware of your surroundings (even of enemies that are behind you). And it's about crowd control. If you are caught in a relatively tight area with a swarm of enemies, then your survival depends on the way you are moving in relation to the swarm, and on weapons you use. If don't like that kind of gameplay, then it's your problem, not the game's.

EDIT: a typo
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,277
Quake 2 was running around boxes filled with stacked boxes, shooting boxes at (hapless) boxes.
Neither alternative is very appealing.

Sheer bullshit. We know your biases are set in stone so your opinion doesn't count for shit here. Quake 2 had better gunplay, more interesting enemies (yes, fuck you) and certainly better level design than any of those Serious Sam or Painkiller games. If your head wasn't stuck so far up your own asshole with atmosphere faggotry you would understand this. Quake 2 was a solid but not great old school game. Serious Sam was a cheap pretend old school game. There is no comparison here.
 

Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,633
Location
Shaper Crypt
Quake 2 had better gunplay, more interesting enemies (yes, fuck you) and certainly better level design than any of those Serious Sam or Painkiller games. Quake 2 was a solid but not great old school game. Serious Sam was a cheap pretend old school game. There is no comparison here.

Quake II is an aggressively mediocre game. An apt comparison would be Daikatana or Blood 2. I'm serious, and I'm trying to hear a different opinion. I've replayed Quake II and Daikatana two years ago or so, and found them similar. Daikatana was even funnier, with the poor writing and all the broken stuff.

It suffers from bland weapons (bar the Grenade Launcher and the Railgun), bland enemies and adequate maps. The maps are sometimes competent, but the awful palette reinforces the "all is brown" sensation.
Gunplay? Quake II has a mediocre gunplay. Bar the Railgun, most weapons lack weight. In a shooter you can have gimmicky weaponry (DN3D Shrink Ray, as an example) or "effective yet unimaginative" guns (the Shotgun from Doom is the Ur-Example). Quake II has only boring stuff to use, and often not even that effective (Shotgun!). Not even the Nailgun gives us the "ooomph" that you expect.

Enemies? That's the weakest point. Blood II enemies are better designed and used that Quake II enemies, and Blood II is an abomination. The Strogg have an uninspired graphic design (the biomechanical theme of Quake II is weak) with limited "game" design: the most used are mostly hitscan enemies/ranged explosive enemies. Lot of 'em in progression. The HtH/air foes are never used in a "smart" way (think of the first Skaarj in Unreal) or in sufficient numbers (Serious Sam). You find yourself gunning down 5-6 Guards or Guards equivalent with a Chaingun, and that keeps on and on and on in bland enviroments. The bosses are standard fare for its age: poor AI and bad maps cause them to be a breeze. Thus, boring. The foes lack "gimmicks" or peculiarities - methinks that after they designed the post-death attacks of the Guards and the Enforcer they said "Enough: too creative, guys."

Enviroments are weak both "thematically" and "mechanically" (we can all say that "immershun" is secondary in a good shooter, but Q2 gunplay is not that good, and have to look to brown textures 99% does not help). I mean, I'm trying to remember some highlight of Q2 levels, but only the timed secret level comes to my mind.

There is no reason to play-replay Quake II. It has nothing to teach, nothing to show. It is the 5/10 of its age. Daikatana at least tried to do something great. Quake II is not "good". It's mediocre.

Of course, you're free to disagree. Some good counter arguments?
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,277
but the awful palette reinforces the "all is brown" sensation.

Betrayed as another atmosphere fag. Opinion thereby invalid. Quake 2 no better than Daikatana? And you want us to take you seriously? Bah.

This forum is filled with too many pretentious bastards who cannot into objectivity. If a game gets one of their pretentious sacred cows wrong (in the case of Quake 2, shit ambiance and art), the whole game automatically becomes shit, no particular reason aside for an instinctive antipathy. Notice how the "thematic" argument is brought up again and again, while all the mechanics of the game are dismissed in nebulous and vague terms (its shit! And this, shit!).

Meanwhile, a game like Unreal gets a pass for its shitty mechanics and design because "hooo, so prettiah, muh atmosphere".

Also, sup, DraQ alt.
 
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Dayyālu

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
4,633
Location
Shaper Crypt
Betrayed as another atmosphere fag. Opinion thereby invalid. Quake 2 no better than Daikatana? And you want us to take you seriously? Bah.

Replay them. I was surprised too.

while all the mechanics of the game are dismissing in nebulous and vague terms.

In a shooter you can have gimmicky weaponry (DN3D Shrink Ray, as an example) or "effective yet unimaginative" guns (the Shotgun from Doom is the Ur-Example). Quake II has only boring stuff to use, and often not even that effective (Shotgun!). Not even the Nailgun gives us the "ooomph" that you expect.

".... with limited "game" design: the most used are mostly hitscan enemies/ranged explosive enemies. Lot of 'em in progression. The HtH/air foes are never used in a "smart" way (think of the first Skaarj in Unreal) or in sufficient numbers (Serious Sam). You find yourself gunning down 5-6 Guards or Guards equivalent with a Chaingun, and that keeps on and on and on in bland enviroments. The bosses are standard fare for its age: poor AI and bad maps cause them to be a breeze. Thus, boring. The foes lack "gimmicks" or peculiarities - methinks that after they designed the post-death attacks of the Guards and the Enforcer they said "Enough: too creative, guys."

Do you want a thesis? But I should replay Quake II to give you better examples, and the pain! The Brown! the Guards!

Meanwhile, a game like Unreal gets a pass for its shitty mechanics and design because "hooo, so prettiah, muh atmosphere".

Funny. I do not like Unreal much. It uses enemies and level design better that Quake II, though.

Of course, you're free to disagree. Some good counter arguments?

I am waiting :|. Anything good to say, my man? I'm truly curious.
 
Unwanted

Goat Vomit

Andhaira
Andhaira
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
391
While I don't hold any hopes up for Doom Reboot: Second Attempt - let's copy Brutal Doom Edition, I think it will be interesting to see what id has learned after the massive fuck-up that was rage and if they will become even a teeny itsy bitsy bit relevant technology wise and as a game developer again or if this will just be the final nail in the coffin that contains id's rotting corpse. Fun times ahead in either case.

Quake 2 > Serious Shit or Fag Killer.
While I agree that it's better than Painkiller (the devs actually had no fucking clue about level design, I've read an interview or something where they admitted to just giving their artists a free hand in doing whatever and then blocking the play area off.), I think Serious Sam is much more entertaining than Q2 and is a better FPS. SS had humour, charm and scale. Q2's serious business objectives and generic grimdarkness never felt quite right to me. The first quake not only had better gameplay but the mood was entirely different and even though it was a bunch of random shit cobbled together out of Romero's broken dreams it had so much atmosphere and personality that the sequel so sorely lacked. Tho SS had mediocre gunplay too and no cool atmosphere it had iconic enemies, a fun arsenal and fresh colourful visuals in huge open levels.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Serious Sam series is fine. Momos trying to critique it for elements it doesn't even pretend to have is hilarious. It's meant to be a frantic strafe shooter, nothing more. No one plays it for exploration and level design.
 
Unwanted

Goat Vomit

Andhaira
Andhaira
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
391
Serious Sam series is fine. Momos trying to critique it for elements it doesn't even pretend to have is hilarious. It's meant to be a frantic strafe shooter, nothing more. No one plays it for exploration and level design.
The guns feel weak (stiff and bad animations, not enough impact reaction and too low damage in some cases.), at least in the first two games, I've yet to play the third. It also lacks variation in terms of level layouts, encounters and that sort of things. Some of the levels are really cool, I remember for example this gravity defying wall you see enemies run down from and that they did some fun things with fog and such but they never really did anything with it, gameplay wise I mean, it's always just gimmicks used once or twice for novelty or to awe the player. It's pretty gud otherwise, but it's not up there.
 

Psquit

Arcane
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
1,921
Location
Ushuaia
Reinstalling doom 3.
game is dark as fuck... cant see shit.
game tells me to use my flashlight.
mfw when amnesia the dark descent is a ripoff of doom 3

images


i would kill for a quake 5: At the Mountains of Madness
 

dnf

Pedophile
Dumbfuck Shitposter
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
5,885
Im still waiting for someone to give legit reasons for why Brutal Doom is worse than vanilla Doom, instead we get retarded comparisons between Goatse simulator. Face it shihonage and assorted nostalgiatards, DooM is outdated to the core, there is no "elegance" and "playability" with it's outdated graphics and effects in this day and age. Take your shiny complex maps(the only real lasting legacy, but without proper mindblowing action, the whole thing falls flat) and replace the outdated mechanics and graphix for something fresh.

Quake 2 is really nice with berserker mod, need to play it some day. Also, why Quake 2 appeared on this thread? Oh right, official Q2 hater Draq. If you play either Quake with a modern PC without taking advantage of modern graphic ports, you are a faggot, plain and simple.
 

Psquit

Arcane
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
1,921
Location
Ushuaia
Guys guys, how come some of the demons, have mechanical parts? did uac experimented on them?
 

Psquit

Arcane
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
1,921
Location
Ushuaia
I fucked up that sentence... sorry my bad. i guess demons "adopted human technology" since they overrun the whole complex.

I hope doom 4 gets the whole demons thing more serious. Since most of the creatures in doom 3 end up looking like stroggs...
 

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