Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[Admiral jimbob]

Remind me not to type "Lord Xeen" into the teleport mirror just to see what happens in future.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Have to say, I'm not enjoying World of Xeen quite as much as MM3. I'm only exploring Cloudside just now, but I'm making quick progress (hell, it's more of the same, it's not hard to get to grips with). The world's not really as interesting - I miss stumbling across caches and hidden groups of monsters, it was an incentive to explore every square of the map - and the dungeons seem a little less inspred, even if they're more graphically varied. It seems to follow a more linear progression, as well; in MM3, I stumbled into the Magic Cavern far earlier than I had any right to, and subsequently wrecked shit across the land with Implosion, entering dungeons out of sequence thanks to the extra keys you gain with new recruits. In WoX, you seem to have to follow a very specific dungeon order, which isn't really as fun.

Also, fuck getting out of the starting town and being thrown immediately into a nine-level dungeon where every floor is exactly the fucking same. Jesus Christ.

Still a good game, but I can't help but be a little disappointed.

 

[Sceptic]

Have to say, I'm not enjoying World of Xeen quite as much as MM3.

WHAT?

I'm only exploring Cloudside just now

Ah. Yeah I rank MM3 above MM4, if we split up WOX. The only reason WOX ends up ranking on top is that MM5 is awesome, and drags up WOX as a whole with it.

Also, fuck getting out of the starting town and being thrown immediately into a nine-level dungeon where every floor is exactly the fucking same. Jesus Christ.

The mines are quite possibly the weakest part of the 3-5 trilogy. Cloudside gets better after it, but Darkside is where it's all at. The world's more interesting and the dungeons are MUCH more atmospheric and fun. And there's the skyway there of course.

Still a good game, but I can't help but be a little disappointed.

Hopefully that'll lift once you cross to the Darkside.

 

[mondblut]

I just saw M&M2 color for Mac screenshots. It looks so hot. Probably the best-looking MM2 out there (and I just spent a few hours first with SNES and then with Genesis versions).

 

[Sceptic]

There was a color version for Macs? I thought they were all B&W at the time. The ones I saw for both MM1 and MM2 were always B&W. Got a link to these shots?

 

[Luzur]

yes, please do link to these since i have also never seen anything then monochrome pics of these games for Mac.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Okay, the last third of so of MM4 was pretty good. Played through most of the first town in MM5, and damn, I'm pretty impressed already. It even has ~dialogue options~ and ~C&C~! Though a puzzle that asks you for an answer that requires you to have explored half of Darkside, and shuts off forever if you get it wrong, was a... questionable thing to put in the starting town.

 

[kmonster]

The original game has a worldmap included where you can get the information needed for this puzzle. Just open the file or use a printer if you only have a digital manual.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Ah, the GOG version has maps for the two starting towns in the manual, but no other maps, so I figured that was all you were given. Ah well.

 

[Luzur]

you mean those drawkcab monks (Palindrome) or the map quiz (Sandcaster)?

 

[kmonster]

Ah, the GOG version has maps for the two starting towns in the manual, but no other maps, so I figured that was all you were given. Ah well.

The map is included in the GOG version, it's in the additional content. M&M I-VI maps.
This map is also very useful for the teleporter passwords.

 

[Sceptic]

Played through most of the first town in MM5, and damn, I'm pretty impressed already.

It even has ~dialogue options~ and ~C&C~!

Don't get your hopes too high about the C&C, there isn't really much of it. At least not on the consequences end.

Regarding the monks' puzzle, you just need the map, which as kmonster pointed out should be included in the pack.

This map is also very useful for the teleporter passwords.

Unlike in 3, where you had to learn the passwords. I didn't like this in 4 because there was a little less incentive to explore - you could just teleport around at will. Thankfully in 5 the teleporters are inactive until quite late in the game, so it's a convenience for quickly moving around in the late game but you can't skip exploration by using it.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Ah, the GOG version has maps for the two starting towns in the manual, but no other maps, so I figured that was all you were given. Ah well.

The map is included in the GOG version, it's in the additional content. M&M I-VI maps.
This map is also very useful for the teleporter passwords.

Dammit, I entirely forgot about that. To be honest, I was expecting to be able to try the puzzle again anyway, so I didn't put too much thought into it until I tried it again and got thrown out. It doesn't really matter, given that my party is in their level 20s by this point anyway.

you mean those drawkcab monks (Palindrome) or the map quiz (Sandcaster)?

Sandcaster was the one.

 

[Mastermind]

I played 9 for a little bit yesterday. Other than the horrible graphics bug that requires me to alt tab in and out of the game to unfreeze it, it plays like a smoother version of wiz8 without the tedious encounters and class variety (though looking over the class branching it looks like they did a fairly decent job balancing them out compared to 7). I'm still on the island you crash on after leaving the starting area though so there's plenty of room for it to get worse. Why is 9 hated so much?

 

[torpid]

Playing III, I just realized that I had my strongest char in third place, so he wasn't contributing to door-busting and I was missing out on certain areas. I've fixed that and I'm now about to take on a bunch of cyclops in the depths of their lair

I'm loving the puzzles and riddles, although the way clues are dispersed throughout different dungeons is making me paranoid and worried about missing stuff.

 

[DaveO]

MM9 is hated because the game is mostly empty with the exception of quests and dungeons. I don't recall mob saturation on maps being up to the number of encounters you have for MM8 or MM7.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Played through most of the first town in MM5, and damn, I'm pretty impressed already.

Haven't been able to put it down

 

[Sceptic]

Details details! Where are you, what level is your party, etc.

Funny eh, how 4 and 5 have EXACTLY the same engine, mechanics, even the same sound effects, yet 5 is much more enjoyable.

 

[SkeleTony]

I just cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would pick M&M6 over M&M 7? I have tried...over and over again to play through 6, thinking I must be missing something since there are intelligent people around here constantly saying M&M6 => M&M 7.

But I just don't see it. The dungeons and such in 6 bore me. The character system is too constrained(compared to 7). The story is no better than 7(maybe worse), not that I care much about story anyway. The alleged 'non-linearity' at the beginning of M&M 6 is bullshit...very artificial(I would rather start out on Emerald Isle and be unable to 'go wherever I want' than to be given the M&M 6 'You can go wherever but you will die if you don't start with these goblins in the starting town'(and in any case this is all DAMNED unimportant since we are only talking about the STARTING TOWNS!).

And there is nothing in 6 that makes up for the following:

*MM7 allows nonhuman races with significant stat differences.

*MM7 has more classes.

*MM 7 has a much better defined skill system. Not only adding "Grandmaster" ranks but also better 'C&C' type relations of skills to classes(Should I take a Ranger since they can GM axes and still Master the bow? Or should I take an archer who can GM bows and become a better caster(at elemental magics)? Or maybe a Paladin who can GM Mace and be a capable back-up healer/cleric?

*Much more interesting items to find in MM 7 IMO.

*More interesting quests, dungeons, overland areas, cities, NPCs, etc.

I keep trying to finish MM6 but every time I force myself to get to the last 1/3rd or so of the game and I just cannot force myself to play it anymore. I am just literally yawning my way through boring battles for reasons I don't even care about.

 

[Wolfus]

^

But I finished MM6 too and it is good game.

 

[Varn]

I think MM6 v MM7 comes down to personal preference and whether you played 6 first.

I played 6 first so 7 was "more of the same" with a bit better character system, but a world that felt (and was) smaller and far less interesting. The dungeons in 7 also were far smaller and lacked the epic scale of 6. Finally there were a lot of similarities between 6 and 7 ie the dwarf caves in 7, if i remember correctly, were very similar to Snergle's Caverns etc. in 6.

They are both very close in terms of overall score however. I'm sure if you played 7 first you'd wonder why 6 was so hyped. But in my view the world in 6 was simply cooler, and the dungeons were far better, therefore it wins by a small amount.

As can be seen with your attempt to play 6 after 7, these games are so long and difficult that sooner or later you get burnout. So if you play 7 first and complete it you will struggle to finish 6, and vice versa. I finished 6 and only got half-way through 7 before throwing in the towel.

 

[DaveO]

MM6 does not have the Protection From Magic abuse that MM7 and MM8 have. The spell is still there in MM6, but from the spell description it only protects against magic spells and not those nasty status effects like poison, disease, death and eradication.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I think MM6 v MM7 comes down to personal preference and whether you played 6 first.

I played 6 first so 7 was "more of the same" with a bit better character system, but a world that felt (and was) smaller and far less interesting

This. Exactly. Plus it came out less than a year after 6 when I had barely completed it and felt like a "rushed" attempt at milking the cash cow. 6 was the game that brought MM back to life after years in limbo and even if some changes were debatable it "modernized" the franchise (without openly betraying it, this is not Fallout 3) and kicked ass, in comparison 7 only felt like 6'.
It's still a good game but it was a real disappointment at the time.

 

[hoverdog]

MM6 does not have the Protection From Magic abuse that MM7 and MM8 have. The spell is still there in MM6, but from the spell description it only protects against magic spells and not those nasty status effects like poison, disease, death and eradication.

This and Invisibility.

 

[Sceptic]

I just cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would pick M&M6 over M&M 7?

Pretty sure I've had this argument not too long ago, and pretty sure it was with you

But I just don't see it. The dungeons and such in 6 bore me.

Why? because they're too big? It's an exploration/dungeon crawl game. About half the game is supposed to be in dungeons. 7 and 8 forgot about this and put in tiny, tiny dungeons that could be fully cleared out under 10 minutes. THAT was boring. Were 6's dungeons too big? maybe... I mean I don't think so, but I can understand why some people do. But 6's were so much more memorable. I've played 7 more recently yet I remember 6's dungeons MUCH better. The Abandoned Temple with the tunnel in the back of the temple turning into this monstrous complex of caverns, the Temple of Baa in Ironfist with its >100 skeletons ambush, the temple on Hermit's Isle with the ramp spiralling down into the volcano, Castle Darkmoore with its huge spaces and the citadel-within-a-cavern, and of course the Tomb of Varn with its gloriously open spaces... I remember all these very vividly. From 7 I remember... erm... yeah, the Tunnels to Nighon being endlessly boring. Ironically that was the largest dungeon in 7.

The character system is too constrained(compared to 7).

Yes, this is the one point I have always conceded is a clear unambiguous win for 7.

The story is no better than 7(maybe worse), not that I care much about story anyway.

Story in both is an excuse to explore and dungeon crawl. If anything 7 made the mistake of focusing a little too much on the story, and since it's pretty rubbish it would've been much better to leave it forgotten in the background. M&M may be good at overarching plot, but individual stories were always very meh.

The alleged 'non-linearity' at the beginning of M&M 6 is bullshit...very artificial(I would rather start out on Emerald Isle and be unable to 'go wherever I want' than to be given the M&M 6 'You can go wherever but you will die if you don't start with these goblins in the starting town'

This is where I'm gonna have to call bullshit. First, the nonlinearity has nothing to do with just Emerald Isle, though it's a good indication of what's to come. The linearity is about what's available for you to go to. MM6 has 15 large overland maps; you can go to ANY of them right off the bat (whether you survive is a matter I will address shortly). No limitations, no artificial obstacles (really, how could you use "artificial" about 6?). Now let's compare to MM7: 12 large maps (Emerald Isle doesn't count for obvious reasons), only 8 of which are available straight away. That's HALF of MM6. Of the remaining, 2 you have to go through a chain of dungeons to get to, and another 2 you have to actually complete quests to access. You know, like in Arcania.

Now survivability. "It's linear because areas are of increasing difficulty" is the single worst argument you can use and the reason why we have Oblivion. No, areas being designed for specific difficulty does NOT mean you have to play them in this order. It means the game's most balanced if you play them in this order; incidentally it also means the game's most BORING if you do. In my first MM6 run I rushed to Kriegspire; I don't know why, just because. It was FUCKING TOUGH. And you know what? I loved it. Extremely rewarding, especially since, even though loot is randomized, the LEVEL of the loot is manually assigned to each chest in the game, so I was getting some very very nice Relics. Which of course were an even bigger two-edged sword than usual because, at lower level, both the pros AND the cons on the Relic are a big deal. And now the final nail in the coffin: people HAVE finished MM6 with a level 1 party. Repeatedly. So, no, you don't need to start on these goblins in the starting town; that's just the "easy path". And the beauty of open-ended games? YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THE EASY PATH. You can take whatever path you want. Or mix them up. Now... you could do this with 7 too... but to a MUCH lesser extent, thanks to smaller world AND a third of it being unavailable right off the bat.

Also, while story is not what you play M&M for, another point goes to MM6 for the MQ. That is also where the nonlinearity shows. You have 6 rulers' quests to do, in any order, followed by 4 crystals, again in any order, then it funnels into the endgame. Compare to MM7: strictly linear MQ progression. Clean out Harmondale, then go see dwarfs, then go see rulers and complete/fail their quests, wait for a month, do the horn thing, wait for another month, pick side... the waiting parts make the linearity even more obvious as you sit there doing sidequests waiting for the MQ to resume. Morrowind did it too... but only at the very very beginning. MM7 does it mid-game, for no real reason, forcing you to waste time.

*MM7 allows nonhuman races with significant stat differences.

Significant? really? 5 or 6 points in a system where stats go into the hundreds?

The races are nice, don't get me wrong, but they're pretty superfluous once you get past Emerald Isle. Especially with Black Potions in MM7 boosting your stat by FIFTY POINTS. At least if they'd kept the MM6 black potions race bonuses might've been less superfluous.

*MM7 has more classes.

Yes, that goes into the skill system, which we agree is superior in 7.

'C&C' type relations of skills to classes

Which would've been nice if you actually got to choose your promotion... which you don't, as it's tied to which side you picked. So if you want a Ninja AND a Priest of Light you're out of luck.

*Much more interesting items to find in MM 7 IMO.

Completely disagree. They took out Relics, which were the single most interesting thing about items in MM6, and something you very rarely see in CRPG's. In all other ways it was pretty much the same as 6.

*More interesting quests, dungeons, overland areas, cities, NPCs, etc.

Fuck no. Dungeons were bland and completely forgettable (see above), overland areas were far more generic, and each existed in its own little world instead of giving the impression as in 6 that one continuous world was just cut up into 15 pieces for engine limitations. Of all the 3D games, 6's world is the only one that felt like it was built in the same way as in 1-5. NPC's and quests were pretty much the same, if anything I find the rulers' quests in 6 to be much more varied and fun than the MQ in 7 (though the multiple choices with relation to the way was a nice touch). Cities... Celeste and The Pit were better than anything in 6, but (hello linearity) they're only accessible in the late game for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

So yeah. 7 has a better character system. 6 has better everything else. Character system is very important obviously, but it's worthless when the actual world and dungeons aren't good. 7's world and dungeons are good, don't get me wrong, just nowhere near as much as 6's.