Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[Tigranes]

IWD2 was never ever going to outsell NWN, they were never competing in the same race.

NWN was the Big New RPG marketed to Take The Genre Boldly Forward from Bioware, the famous company who created Baldur's Gate - or that was how it was marketed & understood widely. The 3D transition was hyped as if 3D alone would completely transform everything for the better (insert Metaverse or whatever today).

IWD2 was a far less marketed sequel that at this point looked identical to the 4 other Infinity Engine titles released in the past ~5 years, a sequel to a first game that was already marketed as a derivative companion product to Baldur's Gate.

You're confusing what would have mattered for whom - e.g. Sawyer was a no-name getting his first big project with IWD2, why would he matter for anything here?

I don't think anybody would have changed their strategies based on their respective sales numbers.

 

[KainenMorden]

What? So 2 DND crpgs weren't competing? Who was iwd2 competing against?

Also, avellone and Sawyer designed nwn2, the last real DND game until bg3.

Nwn 1 sold 1 million units very quickly, iwd series combined sold over half of that by 2006. So you honestly believe
those sales numbers were not a factor in future development?

 

[KainenMorden]

In my estimation, tough to argue that the sales of the last crpg that targeted a hardcore fan base didn't have an effect moving forward and that's besides the effect it had on the future work of Sawyer and Avellone.

 

[Tigranes]

Are you just bringing a big basket of randomly assorted points and years and comparisons and throwing them one by one

The point: was IWD2 not selling as well as NWN1 the key factor in the trajectory of RPGs afterwards? No, because IWD2 was never expected to sell as well as NWN1 by anybody. Not Feargus Urquhart, nobody. Same way IWD was never designed to sell as much as BG. If you're releasing a quickly recorded grunge album after you worked with Nirvana on Nevermind, you aren't really trying to sell more than them.

If you want to know about how it affected Sawyer/Avellone, BIS was a financial and management mess well before IWD2 began (and contributed to IWD2's famously fucked up dev cycle - you know about this, right?), and one might argue that games like Fallout 2 and IWD1/2 got made almost against the odds to begin with. Van Buren and Black Hound also weren't cancelled because IWD2 sold less than NWN1.

 

[KainenMorden]

When did I say it was the key factor? I didn't even say it was one of the key factors.

Blackhound was cancelled when iwd2 started development and Sawyer was the lead designer for it also after being a designer on icewind Dale.

You can also be competitive without outselling the other game. Sawyer talks about how iwd2 had to have difficult combat because IE engine veterans would be playing it. He never said that he thought only IE veterans would buy it.

The game was developed to make money. One way I believe it influenced the industry is that it became clear that targeting hardcore gamers with a difficult DND game wasn't as profitable as what Nwn did.

This of course impacted nwn2. Thus having an effect on the industry.

 

[KainenMorden]

I wonder, have you guys ever even played through iwd 2?

 

[Morgoth]

Had IWD2 maintained the quality of Targos throughout the rest, it would have turned out to be a fine sequel.

But nooooooooo. Interplay really was piggybacking on the success of Bioware, otherwise the company would have gone bust a couple of years earlier already.

 

[KainenMorden]

I love it but I mostly enjoy combat and don't mind frequent, tough and or time consuming fights. I also don't mind linearity.

I think the sidequests were interesting as well and the game gave you significant xp rewards for being persuasive.

I also think many people who shit on it just don't enjoy combat as much as other players do and/or they've never even played through the game, probably quitting at some point and calling it a slog online but the truth is they found it a bit too difficult but are too proud to admit it.

 

[KainenMorden]

Sawyer claimed a decade later that he thought casuals would play Nwn, ok let's say he never intended to compete with it even though they are in the same category and no other similar games were released that year.

The fact that a mainstream crpg never tried to target a hardcore demographic again is an impact.

I never said IWD2 was the sole or one of the chief reasons why crpgs became watered down. I even stated it was happening before iwd2 was released, obviously, because nwn was taking the genre in that direction and it was developed at the same time as iwd2.

 

[KainenMorden]

Kotor is a good example also. It paved the foundation for the future. Make RPGs with simplified systems that are more similar to action adventure games and try to improve every other aspect like writing, etc, put it on a console, profit.

Kotor in 3 years outsold the iwd series combined by more than double.

It's just a big fkn coincidence no games like iwd2 were taken on as serious projects by a major developer ever again.

 

[KainenMorden]

Look I know many dexers don't speak English as their first or primary language but if you can type up some rant you can take the time to actually read my posts.

 

[Acrux]

I wonder, have you guys ever even played through iwd 2?

Yes. Many, many times. It's my favorite IE game.

Also, learn to use the edit button for a single post.

 

[Tigranes]

Roflmao

Black Hound began full development after IWD2 shipped, never mind being "cancelled when iwd2 started".

The Codex is the one place where there are plenty of people old enough to have seen this phase of RPG history play out. I've played IWD2 a dozen times and like it, you'll find my blurb about it on the top Codex RPG list. Not that it matters here, but you don't seem capable to figuring out which details matter to what conversation.

This forum is full of broken Slavenglish speakers but at least the content of what they say is sometimes coherent.

Edit: for those curious:

Damien Foletto:

No. When I first came on to IWD2, I just worked on IWD2. TORN had already been cancelled, as well as Stonekeep 2 by the time I came on. Jefferson (Baldur’s Gate 3) was being conceptualized and by Josh Sawyer during IWD2’s development. After IWD2 shipped, some of us were transferred to Jefferson – I was one of the “transferred,” though I did request to be put on that project.

Roguey probably knows the exact dates and minutes, but IIRC we know Jefferson existed from around 2001, and full development began after IWD2 shipped, then it was cancelled sometime in 2003, shifting everybody onto Van Buren for a few months before its own demise. And of course we know about Interplay's many many problems that already destroyed proper development support by the IWD2 era.

 

[KainenMorden]

https://youtu.be/zng4VfRZTNA

Sawyer says it in the first minute. His first job as lead designer was on blackhound, it got shelved when development on iwd2 started.

He doesn't mention how they tried to do blackhound again and then interplay lost all rights to make a dnd game. I wouldn't be surprised if the money needed for the ip vs what the last ie game brought in convinced interplay it wasn't worth it but I'll be honest and say I'm not sure, I'll look into that.

Let's gloss over the fact you created an argument to rant against.

I forgive you.

 

[KainenMorden]

You have no power over me here.

 

[Tigranes]

Dude, Black Hound was in preproduction, then Sawyer went to work on IWD2.

Full production on TBH began after IWD2 shipped, then it was cancelled in 2003, months after IWD2 was shipped. You literally just said TBH was "cancelled when IWD2 started".

Maybe you don't know what 'shelved' means? Maybe you don't know the difference between preproduction and full production? Maybe you don't know that 2003 comes after 2002? Who knows?

You go ahead and Google "what happened to Black Hound", kid. I won't wait.

(Hint: BG2 & Bioware's moves after that were the big factors in the shift to "cinematic" directions in that period. And in fact, this was already preceded by a mid-90s bust where RPGs tried to go cinematic/casual/3D, made a lot of busts, and Fallout 1 came as an outlier. IWD2 didn't move the needle either way.)

 

[KainenMorden]

Sounds like you're backpedaling.

Also yeah, poor choice of words on my part but we don't really know if that project was going to be looked at again. They eventually chose to look at it again. Either way, I'm ok with you thinking I'm mistaken on that.

Also dubious assertion iwd2 had nothing to do with blackhound not being made. Can you link me to the interview where anyone said that?

 

[KainenMorden]

Right, the fact that major developers didnt want to touch a hardcore crpg or the IE engine or 2d graphics in a crpg again had nothing to do with IWD2.

 

[KainenMorden]

So you quote Folletto that had nothing to do with the black hound originally?

Why did Sawyer say he was the lead designer of a project before IWD2 went into development? According to Sawyer, he didnt start conceptualizing during IWD2 development. It was already a project before that.

 

[KainenMorden]

I'd also like to know, what mid 90s 3d rpg busts are you talking about?

 

[KainenMorden]

https://elliotkane.proboards.com/thread/2670/black-hound-module-originally-bgiii

From a Gamebanshee interview that only exists on old forum posts now:

GB: When did development of The Black Hound actually begin at Black Isle Studios and how large was the team working on it?

Josh: It's hard to remember exactly when it started, but I believe it was around late 2000 to early 2001. Development was concurrent with Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter, though only a very small team was working on The Black Hound during that period. In truth, TBH did not have a full development team until after the end of Icewind Dale 2.

So, development started but shelved during IWD2 and didnt have a full team until after IWD2 shipped.

Does not having a full team mean it wasnt being developed?

Folletto's quote is a misrepresentation of events that he took no part in.

Also, why doesnt Sawyer use the word pre production at any point?

 

[KainenMorden]

Can you show me where I said IWD2 had any direct impact on cinematics or 3d being used in games?

I said its lack of sales is why you didnt see another game like it made by a major developer. I didn't say IWD2 not doing well is why crpgs all went 3d. It just made it clear that sprites wouldn't cut it anymore if you wanted to make money and be competitive with other games.

The games that were more focused on graphics and cinematics sold much better. Meaning, it didnt make financial sense to ever invest money into a game like IWD2 again.

I think you like to just create strawmen and argue with yourself and half the time you have no clue wtf you're talking about.

 

[KainenMorden]

one last thing, can you honestly sit there in, I presume Russia, typing away at your keyboard and acting like IWD2 wasnt a big deal?

Yeah, the last IE game, a series of games that were some of the most commercially successful crpgs ever during their time that was designed by one of the designers of Fallout 2 was no big deal.

You're projecting your present feelings on Sawyer and other aspects of the situation and trying to revise history. You also seem to be applying hindsight and telling us how the people who got other people to invest big money into a game so that they could make money, never felt that game would be competitive against its only actual competitor.

Why the fk do you think they made it? So Avellone could give you a bunch of xp for being a smooth talker?

They obviously thought the market of IE fans would be large enough to make a profit and then altered their future plans. Sawyer even talks about wanting to go 3d after he saw what NWN did. Yeah, I'm sure NWN bringing in $18 million in revenue in less than 6 months didnt catch his attention.

 

[KainenMorden]

https://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/28279-icewind-daleicewind-dale-ii-interview-v15-28279.html

GB: Why did you choose to put most of your development efforts into an Icewind Dale sequel rather than finishing Fallout 3/Van Buren or The Black Hound/Jefferson?

Josh: Both of those titles were using technology that was under development. Interplay wanted Icewind Dale 2 in four months. Finishing The Black Hound would have been impossible in that time frame. Creating an Icewind Dale sequel in that time frame was also impossible, but it was less impossible.

GB: Are you pleased with how well the Icewind Dale games have sold and been received over the years? Are there any specific factors that you think helped or hindered their sales?

Josh: I think they did as well as could be expected. The (positioning) of the game helped us and hindered us. Some people loved the idea of a party-based linear dungeon crawler. But I do think that more people enjoyed the companion interaction and open exploration of the BG games. This probably explains why the BG series outsold the IWD series by a large margin. We also were always following the BG games or coming in after Neverwinter Nights, so we always looked like late-comers to the party.


GB: How has game development changed between your time at Black Isle Studios and Obsidian Entertainment? Do you think a party-based isometric RPG similar to the Icewind Dale games would still be a viable pursuit in today's market?

Josh: In today's market, not really. Hardcore gamers make up an increasingly small percentage of the overall gamer community. Though a lot of people dismiss the Icewind Dale series as brainless, it still uses a pretty complex rule system and requires the player to manage up to six characters with huge inventories and a lot of abilities. Now, if the game had the budget of an Icewind Dale game, maybe it would be viable to a hardcore market, but game budgets are now very large and publishers generally are not interested in hardcore PC RPGs.

 

[A-Minish]

Thanks, actually I have the steam version which doesnt include the original. Looks like I will have to buy it on gog.

Heee, sorry to disappoint but it might not be the case anymore. I bough the EE editions for Planescape, BG1-2 some times ago(around 4, 3 to 2 years ago) and unfortunatly i only received Planescape original. Furthermore I have no option to download an offline installer for the originals in both BG-EEs and ID1-EE's Extra sections.

I do not know if I was unlucky, if it was a bug or if it was due to a change in policy by the owners of the those licences. I never bothered to contact GOG support or Beambog's one for that matter, instead I pirated them and asked a friend to "lend" me his copy. So stay cautious, do not wast your money anymore than you need to, especially if you already have a copy on Steam.