Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[KainenMorden]

The only thing that works for me nowadays is https://github.com/CnCNet/cnc-ddraw/releases.

Gave it a go last night and the bloody thing bricked my IWD2 install. As in removing it didn't restore functionality, kept crashing on start, had to reinstall the game. Weird how finicky this one game is.

I had that once, it was because I installed it on top of another ddraw replacer. It works for me if I install it on a vanilla game.

Berserker/barbarian are overpowered in iwd ee but I did a solo run with a half orc berserker, it was fun.

Ehh, overpowered compared to a normal fighter? Sure (though I'd argue against Barbarian being overpowered, it sacrifices a lot of AC along with Grandmastery compared to what it gets). Overpowered compared to a fighter/mage, fighter/cleric, or other multiclasses like OG IWD1 Cleric/Ranger? Heck no. Arguably the whole reason BG2 added kits was to balance out the power of single classing vs. multiclassing and Bioware did a pretty good job at that.

Although this does remind me, one of the actual huge changes that IWD1EE introduces is dual wielding, which is generally the strongest fighting style (aside from needing extra AC vs. missiles in the final floor of Dragon's Eye). Ranger did get a semi-botched dual wielding implementation where a single handed weapon with no shield received an extra APR, which is another reason why Cleric/Rangers were so good. Everyone getting an extra APR and also getting extra weapon bonuses is probably the biggest general power increase in IWD1EE over IWD1. For example everyone can wield one of the defensive weapons with +2 AC in the offhand and basically replicate the effects of a shield while also attacking faster.

Rage ability is inherently overpowered and cheesy especially for a berserker. The game never expected to have to fight against a PC with rage ability either.

Not sure how this can be argued against. Also at low to mid level a berserker is way ahead of any fighter multi classes. Rage ability is better than a bunch of arcane and divine spells. Those f/c or f/m multis will eventually be more powerful than a berserker but not for quite awhile.

 

[Average Manatee]

Rage ability is inherently overpowered and cheesy especially for a berserker. The game never expected to have to fight against a PC with rage ability either.

Not sure how this can be argued against. Also at low to mid level a berserker is way ahead of any fighter multi classes. Rage ability is better than a bunch of arcane and divine spells. Those f/c or f/m multis will eventually be more powerful than a berserker but not for quite awhile.

Yeah, I'm not going to argue against berserker having a little bit of overpoweredness. Just being immune to hold at an early level is great, which is why in my all-fighter party I took berserker dwarves (dwarven save bonuses already make them pretty resistant to anything with a saving throw and eventually immune though). But aside from that I'd argue that F/C is stronger the instant it gets draw upon holy might. If you didn't roll really great exceptional strength just going from 18/74 to 19 str is a +1 THAC0 +4 Damage boost, roughly comparable to rage. You've also got all the other buffs/utility that clerics provide like healing, bless, turning undead while under sanctuary, throwing rocks at the enemy with that 19 str, etc.

That said a Berserker 2->Cleric x Dual sort of combines the best of both worlds and is definitely near the top of the power curve. Up there with OG Cleric/Ranger.

Barbarian though, really just a crap class. You miss out on ~4-6 AC by the late game due to the armor limitation, and limitation to specialization in weapons knocks you down by -2 THAC0 -2 Damage -0.5 APR permanently compared to real fighters. Rage makes you a bit higher damage in the early game but it's only 5 rounds and by the time you get 3 uses other fighters are probably permanently dealing more damage thanks to that grandmastery. The late game damage resistance does next to nothing to negate being hit 2-3x as often and F/Cs are laughing by then because they can buff all their combat stats higher + wear full armor + get significantly more damage resistance through level 1 armor of faith.

 

[KainenMorden]

Immunity to being disabled is more important than high strength.

 

[KainenMorden]

Rage ability is inherently overpowered and cheesy especially for a berserker. The game never expected to have to fight against a PC with rage ability either.

Not sure how this can be argued against. Also at low to mid level a berserker is way ahead of any fighter multi classes. Rage ability is better than a bunch of arcane and divine spells. Those f/c or f/m multis will eventually be more powerful than a berserker but not for quite awhile.

Yeah, I'm not going to argue against berserker having a little bit of overpoweredness. Just being immune to hold at an early level is great, which is why in my all-fighter party I took berserker dwarves (dwarven save bonuses already make them pretty resistant to anything with a saving throw and eventually immune though). But aside from that I'd argue that F/C is stronger the instant it gets draw upon holy might. If you didn't roll really great exceptional strength just going from 18/74 to 19 str is a +1 THAC0 +4 Damage boost, roughly comparable to rage. You've also got all the other buffs/utility that clerics provide like healing, bless, turning undead while under sanctuary, throwing rocks at the enemy with that 19 str, etc.

That said a Berserker 2->Cleric x Dual sort of combines the best of both worlds and is definitely near the top of the power curve.

Eventually f/c or f/m become stronger but not for a while. Of course berserker dualed with cleric or mage is in contention for strongest build

 

[Average Manatee]

Immunity to being disabled is more important than high strength.

Not gonna say it isn't, but spell casters are also still pretty rare in IWD. It's a problem in like... 3 map areas.

Eventually f/c or f/m become stronger but not for a while. Of course berserker dualed with cleric or mage is in contention for strongest build

If you're dualling at level 2 you're still only getting one rage which doesn't matter tpp much by the late game when you probably want to do way more fights than that between resting. If you're dualling at later levels you have to put up with being stuck without your levels for a long time. It's stronger than a fighter->x dual but still worse than a multi IMO due to the amount of time you are handicapped and your relatively minimal advantage over a multi once you've regained your class.

 

[KainenMorden]

Immunity to being disabled is more important than high strength.

Not gonna say it isn't, but spell casters are also still pretty rare in IWD. It's a problem in like... 3 map areas.

Eventually f/c or f/m become stronger but not for a while. Of course berserker dualed with cleric or mage is in contention for strongest build

If you're dualling at level 2 you're still only getting one rage which doesn't matter tpp much by the late game when you probably want to do way more fights than that between resting. If you're dualling at later levels you have to put up with being stuck without your levels for a long time. It's stronger than a fighter->x dual but still worse than a multi IMO due to the amount of time you are handicapped and your relatively minimal advantage over a multi once you've regained your class.

Yes, I'm not a fan of dual classing for that reason and never did it but there's a good argument you will be stronger in the end game than a multi but again, I usually solo and don't want to deal with downtime.

 

[KainenMorden]

Immunity to being disabled is more important than high strength.

Not gonna say it isn't, but spell casters are also still pretty rare in IWD. It's a problem in like... 3 map areas.

Eventually f/c or f/m become stronger but not for a while. Of course berserker dualed with cleric or mage is in contention for strongest build

If you're dualling at level 2 you're still only getting one rage which doesn't matter tpp much by the late game when you probably want to do way more fights than that between resting. If you're dualling at later levels you have to put up with being stuck without your levels for a long time. It's stronger than a fighter->x dual but still worse than a multi IMO due to the amount of time you are handicapped and your relatively minimal advantage over a multi once you've regained your class.

Maybe barbarian is more debatable but I'd still say it's pretty cheesy to use a hf orc berserker in iwd ee but I did it and justified it by being solo. The game was still challenging but I do want to attempt a solo heart of fury run with a fighter/mage/cleric some day.

 

[Average Manatee]

I actually did a solo HoF run with F/M/C just a few weeks ago. Becomes easy once you can animate undead, then you start spamming aerial servants (go to HoW for quick leveling ASAP), then at high levels abuse mislead/improved haste/Righteous Magic/Black Blade of Disaster to have 10 APR 55 damage per hit. You don't actually need mislead since you can spam stoneskin/mirror image so many times and BBoD heals you but it makes it simpler.

Combining Mage and Cleric stuff made it too easy, a solo sorcerer or F/C/T might be a bit more challenging. Though Aerial Servants probably could have handled the entire game. Their THAC0 and Damage does not fuck around and they are small so if you summon 10 of them they can all gang up on things very well (and with project image you can summon pretty much infinite numbers of them).

 

[KainenMorden]

I actually did a solo HoF run with F/M/C just a few weeks ago. Becomes easy once you can animate undead, then you start spamming aerial servants (go to HoW for quick leveling ASAP), then at high levels abuse mislead/improved haste/Righteous Magic/Black Blade of Disaster to have 10 APR 55 damage per hit. You don't actually need mislead since you can spam stoneskin/mirror image so many times but it makes it simpler.

Combining Mage and Cleric stuff made it too easy, a solo sorcerer or F/C/T might be a bit more challenging. Though Aerial Servants probably could have handled the entire game. Their THAC0 and Damage does not fuck around and they are small so if you summon 10 of them they can all gang up on things very well (and with project image you can summon pretty much infinite numbers of them).

Yeah, I have an issue with sorcerer not being balanced for the game either. Again, I bet it would be fun and challenging for a solo run but you have abilities the game wasn't designed to combat.

 

[Average Manatee]

True but with Sorcerer I think your limited selection would be enough to at least make it somewhat interesting if you aren't rest spamming to use multiple timestops in every fight. Damaging spells don't scale up well enough to really clean up late game HoF difficulty fights and you're not going to be an invulnerable melee powerhouse like a F/M/C. Plus it would actually be fun to be able to use timestop once in a while to break boss fights.

 

[KainenMorden]

True but with Sorcerer I think your limited selection would be enough to at least make it somewhat interesting if you aren't rest spamming to use multiple timestops in every fight. Damaging spells don't scale up well enough to really clean up late game HoF difficulty fights and you're not going to be an invulnerable melee powerhouse like a F/M/C. Plus it would actually be fun to be able to use timestop once in a while to break boss fights.

Fmt I think would be a cool challenge but I don't like playing thieves in 2nd Ed. Iwd ee opens the game up for some fun runs for sure but certain builds will destroy the end game. Again I do see your point because it sounds like an fmc also trivializes the game eventually.

 

[KainenMorden]

True but with Sorcerer I think your limited selection would be enough to at least make it somewhat interesting if you aren't rest spamming to use multiple timestops in every fight. Damaging spells don't scale up well enough to really clean up late game HoF difficulty fights and you're not going to be an invulnerable melee powerhouse like a F/M/C. Plus it would actually be fun to be able to use timestop once in a while to break boss fights.

Btw I have the same thoughts about doing a bg1 scs sorcerer run. I might do it and justify it by being solo. I don't really want to play any other solo build in bg1 again besides a sorc. I've solod the series unmodded with a fighter/illusionist. I could go elf fighter mage for bg1 but for sure don't want to lay any other build but sorc in scs bg2+tob

 

[newtmonkey]

Tonight, I finally completed Icewind Dale with both expansions (original version from GOG). I played through on "Normal" with a Paladin, Fighter, Cleric, demihuman Fighter/Thief, and two magic-users.

I went into Icewind Dale not really expecting much, since (outside of the Codex) it's generally seen as "just" a dungeon crawler, but I ended up loving it start to finish. There are some really great dungeons and labyrinths in this game, and I thought the combat was a lot better than in BG1. Party/character development was also great, with you constantly finding good upgrades throughout the game.

It took just over 60 hours to do it all. I did the expansions integrated into the base game, so the final battles in both HoW and ID ended up being suprisingly easy; I probably should have just played through ID1 in its entirety, then imported my party into HoW, then TotLM. Oh well, it was still fun this way.

I don't often replay RPGs, but I could see myself replaying this a couple years from now, with a different party and on a higher difficulty level. Great game!

 

[KainenMorden]

Play IWD2, I love both games personally. If on Win 10, my tip is to run compatibility mode for Win 7 with the game. I did that last summer and had a fun run with no bugs or crashes that I can remember.

I don't often replay games either but I've revisited all the IE games a few times over the past decade or so and IWD2s combat and spells really stick out in my mind. You can't have quite the same mage duels as you can in BG2 but it is still a lot of fun.

 

[The Limper]

IWD2 Clerics…. I run 3 Battle Clerics, a Sorcerer, a Pally and a Rogue/Bard. After level 3 Clerics start to own the game. So many builds makes for a very replayable game.

 

[KainenMorden]

Solo evil human sorcerer was my last run. Tough early game then becomes a necromancer's power fantasy.

 

[The Limper]

First timers can plow their way thru IWD2 with any party, though the final battle may stump them. But the 2nd time thru is the sweetspot as you become the Warlock stirring the cauldron, coming up with crazy build concoctions.

 

[KainenMorden]

A few random thoughts I've had on IWD2.

The IE engine was considered dated in 2002 and NWN OC was the highly touted dnd rpg. I believe this to be because of 3d graphics and a much lower difficulty also IWD2 had a bunch of bugs.

Sawyer has said it was designed for hardcore IE fans and that's why he wanted to make it difficult.

I think the reaction to IWD2 helped shape the industry moving forward. Designers wanted to make things easier and more accessible/more like an MMORPG and less like IE games.

 

[KainenMorden]

Absolutely, 3e allows for some really cool builds but single class characters can still be extremely powerful and sometimes are more powerful than multis depending on lvl cap of campaign.

 

[KainenMorden]

I will say though that those inexperienced with IE games and the rule set would absolutely get demolished in this game.

I don't think you necessarily need to know the game in and out for party play but you really do if you want to solo and I don't think this game is a cakewalk even for crpg veterans.

 

[KainenMorden]

Also, is there no way to play the original iwd? Seems like gog only sells the ee

 

[newtmonkey]

KainenMorden
As far as I know, if you buy the EE version on GOG it comes with the original version as an extra.

 

[KainenMorden]

Thanks, actually I have the steam version which doesnt include the original. Looks like I will have to buy it on gog.

 

[Butter]

A few random thoughts I've had on IWD2.

The IE engine was considered dated in 2002 and NWN OC was the highly touted dnd rpg. I believe this to be because of 3d graphics and a much lower difficulty also IWD2 had a bunch of bugs.

Sawyer has said it was designed for hardcore IE fans and that's why he wanted to make it difficult.

I think the reaction to IWD2 helped shape the industry moving forward. Designers wanted to make things easier and more accessible/more like an MMORPG and less like IE games.

I don't think IWD2 had enough impact to influence anybody. I think designers looked at the success of games like KotOR and WoW and followed suit.

 

[KainenMorden]

Yes, I would also argue that the genre was going that direction prior to IWD2 but IWD2's lack of commercial success was the final nail in the casket, from my point of view.

I think sales numbers of NWN vs IWD2 absolutely influenced the genre.

Also, you're really downplaying IWD2. It was in contention with NWN and Morrowind for Computer Gaming World's best rpg of 2002.

Also, Avellone and Sawyer both designed it. Do you really think IWD2's sales had no impact moving forward?