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So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

TheGreatOne

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Don't get me wrong it's a great game, well-written, good C&C, great atmosphere and...? Somewhat terrible gameplay. I guess the Codex is primarily made up of storyfags, well, this is further reinforced by PS:T being #1.
Coming from the guy who made the immersion thread. Correct me if I'm wrong here but weren't you thinking more about games along the lines of Morrowind and Deus Ex (Horribad^2 combat and decent combat with bad AI and too easy enemis) when talking about immerssive first person games rather than using that Oculus Rift of yours to play Wizardry and Grimoire? Your obsession with FPV/immersion makes you seem like some one who doesn't care about good gameplay in RPGs (=isometric TBC+grid based movement or action point system of some kind)
Fallout: New Vegas, the greatest role playing shooter.
The less retarded sibling of Fallout 3 better than DX, VTMB and SS2? Maybe if Master Chief is your homebro and Mountain Dew your favorite drink. It's a pointless sandbox, quite literally. Stalker does that a lot better and Fallout does Fallout a lot better. Like Witcher and Morrowind, it's to WRPGs what Sanitarium and Syberia are to adventure games. Ascended mediocrity.
 
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Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Great game, but I strongly disagree with it's placement in the Codex's list. Ahead of System Shock 2 and Deus Ex and ALL other First Person RPGs? Yeah, right. Don't get me wrong it's a great game, well-written, good C&C, great atmosphere and...? Somewhat terrible gameplay. I guess the Codex is primarily made up of storyfags, well, this is further reinforced by PS:T being #1.

I'm not a storyfag and I enjoyed Bloodlines' gameplay a lot more than Deus Ex or SS2. In fact I couldn't even play the last 2 long enough to give them a fair chance. Bloodlines has decent gameplay at its core, it just lacks polish.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
good gameplay in RPGs (=isometric TBC+grid based movement or action point system of some kind)


None of those elements have anything to do with the quality of the gameplay. They're almost entirely stylistic elements.
 

TheGreatOne

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good gameplay in RPGs (=isometric TBC+grid based movement or action point system of some kind)
Could you possibly be more ignorant
FPV RT combat and RPGs just don't work together. Every single game that has tried it has ended up with clunky, medicore at best combat. Maybe Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis could be seen as exceptions to that rule, but even they didn't capture the feel of the weapons nearly as well as they could have. You can't have it both ways and have both good gunplay and stat based RPG mechanics at the same time.
Blobber combat is fine too. Even RTWP can be decent at times.
 

TheGreatOne

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Grids/action point based systems are more of an ideal scenario than what existing RPGs have. Fallout/Arcanum is no XCOM, but taking movement and positioning into account has great potential.
 

TheGreatOne

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APs allow stats (and equipment) to influence gameplay more (carry capacity, more melee/magic damage, accuracy, health etc vs ability to perform multiple strikes/reload faster/run a longer distance/get into defensive position/climb over obstacles etc). And if you have stances, interacting with objects in the environment and stuff like that, you need to divide your turns into smaller parts rather than just one action/turn/character. And APs (as opposed to 1 attack+1 defensive/misc move per turn) bring more strategic depth into deciding how to allocate your resources within those individual turns (again, think of XCOM/JA2/Silent Storm)
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
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FPV RT combat and RPGs just don't work together. Every single game that has tried it has ended up with clunky, medicore at best combat.

The first two Gothic games had pretty good real time combat (melee). They were third person, but the same system would've worked in first person.

It's true that most First Person RPGs do have shitty combat, but as someone mentioned already, that's also true of most RPG combat in general. Theoretically, there is nothing preventing developers from coming up with a good RPG FPP real time combat system. There are however a few common obstacles to this. The first is that real time combat must be both timing and skill based (player skill), and most RPG devs are scared to death of making such a system because it might be disliked by both casuals looking for easy games, and by some hardcore nerds who cannot handle gameplay requiring reflexes/coordination at all. This is why cool gameplay mechanics like a timing based parry in Gothic games gets turned into a pointless "hold parry" mechanic which the enemy for some reason hits into anyway in Oblivion.

Another common obstacle is the RPG devs insistence on thinking about real time combat in terms of numbers. This is a hold-over from tactical RPG combat, where numbers play a big role, but in real time combat, having numbers related to hitpoints, damage, weapons and so on change throughout the game as you level up just really messes with balance and the mechanics. What they should do instead, in my opinion, is have the player gain new abilities, for example, that they can use in combat, while their numbers stay the same. Enemies would also have various collections of those abilities depending on their target difficulty, and then the combat system could be designed around the overall set of those.

Finally, good real time combat requires a heavy investment. There are basically entire genres built around good real time combat (e.g. FPS). RPG devs have a lot of other costs, writing, quests, world design, etc, so I am guessing SS2, DX, and Fallout 3 did not have nearly enough spending on their shooting mechanics as a typical FPS.
 

Akasen

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I walk back into this thread to find it move from a conversation on VtMB to RPG mechanics in general.

I know what this is, this is the Codex version of Godwin's Law. "As an online discussion on the Codex grows longer, the probability of a generalized discussion on RPG's approaches 1."
 

DalekFlay

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The less retarded sibling of Fallout 3 better than DX, VTMB and SS2? Maybe if Master Chief is your homebro and Mountain Dew your favorite drink. It's a pointless sandbox, quite literally. Stalker does that a lot better and Fallout does Fallout a lot better. Like Witcher and Morrowind, it's to WRPGs what Sanitarium and Syberia are to adventure games. Ascended mediocrity.

Your quest for purity prevents you from seeing the perfect bride of mixed blood standing right in front of you.
 

Jaesun

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I walk back into this thread to find it move from a conversation on VtMB to RPG mechanics in general.

I know what this is, this is the Codex version of Godwin's Law. "As an online discussion on the Codex grows longer, the probability of a generalized discussion on RPG's approaches 1."

No, actually there are the people actually discussing cRPG mechanics, the rest are retards.

Pretty simple. Do you need a Quest Compass™?
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I enjoy VtMB, yet I also see its rather large flaws.

I wish we could have seen a Troika game with a reasonable budget, no stupid publisher demands (like rt combat in arcanum), and a sane development schedule. Would be interesting to see what would have happened.
 

Jaesun

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I enjoy VtMB, yet I also see its rather large flaws.

I wish we could have seen a Troika game with a reasonable budget, no stupid publisher demands (like rt combat in arcanum), and a sane development schedule. Would be interesting to see what would have happened.

If Kickstarter happened when they were still in business, that could have been a possibility sadly...
 

karfhud

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Backstabber

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I think the main reason why Bloodlines' gameplay doesn't work as well as DX's or SS2's is that the maps are really small for something that tries to blend FPS and stealth, and many of the levels rely too much on scripted events (take a look at the Ocean House level, it pretty much leaves no room for exploration with the stupid scripted jumpscares).
 

TheGreatOne

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They do if the devs aren't retarded.

They're all retarded. Most RPGs have shit combat, including isometric tb ap ones like Fallout.
Oh I never claimed Fallout has good combat, both F1&2 and Arcanum had really bad combat despite being TB.

And no, you can't mix the two. True RPGs by their very nature can't be dependent upon player skill. And you can't have a good skill based combat system if you have retarded shit like shooting enemy straight in the head and slashing them over and over again (Morrowderp) and still missing because the developers thought it would be a fun idea to mix stat based RPG concepts (chance to hit, critical strikes) with first person combat where supposedly if something is between your crosshairs and you pull the trigger, it dies. Dark Souls does have good combat, but it's a JRPG designed to be played with a playstation controller and uses third person perspective so I'm disregarding it from this conversation.




Remind me again why people like these games. They don't have good writing, they don't have good combat and C&C is done better in superior games. It's fun to explore aimlessly? You can do that in roguelikes, GTA/Infamous/Saints Row/Just Cause 2 and those are actually well designed/fun to play at least. It's the like the world interactivity thing in Ultima 7 I complained about in that other thread. A nice feature, but does that mean they deserve a spot at TOP 10 of the best RPGs list? Fuck no. (FYI I do think that VTMB deserves a spot, that was directed at TES (and other similar FPP/TPP hack n slash wanna be MMORPGs) and F3/NV style of gameplay where the writing isn't as good, there's not as much C&C and RPG systems have less depth due to lack of races)
 

Backstabber

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Apr 18, 2014
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I think reflex/dexterity-based gameplay is a better term for that instead of "player skill". There should definitely be skill involved in a good turn-based RPG, in the form of tactical depth and interesting systems.
 

TheGreatOne

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Feb 15, 2014
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Yes, I should clarify: a true RPG should not require twitch reflexes from the player. And conversely, you can't have shit like shooting some one straight between the eyes and missing in a game like Quake 3 Arena (and many argue that there shouldn't be any RNG in World of Warcraft arena because luck can override player skills in some situations, therefore making it a less pure eSport)
 

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