So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

[CyberP]

Vampire Bloodlines is the only thing that come as close to Deus Ex than a Deus Ex mod.

I don't feel the same way.

Shit anti-C&C inventory system.
Limiting RPG PC progression systems, and where is my weapon modding?
Story events do not change based on actions to the scale of DX.
Level design is pretty linear, even in the hubs. Not good for explore fags, you just go to location X, talk to character Y, do mission Z. This is the structure of the whole game, nothing changes.
The game is basically set on one plane, no verticality at all.
Whereas DX gave you multiple tools to tackle obstacles to consider investing in and thus furthering the sense of freedom and increasing gameplay depth, with VTM:B if you don't have the correct tool/skill level there is no other option.
Interactivity in general is not even close to being on DX's level.
It's combat and stealth are lacklustre.
Etc etc.

with good gameplay.

As far as FPS/RPGs go, it's gameplay is pretty shit, namely the combat. It's writing and atmosphere makes it an all-time great, but I wouldn't consider it close to being on DX's level nor better than all of the FP RPGs in general.

Oh and fuck the unnecessary third person perspective switching.

Arx Fatalis, SS2 or even VTM:B are closer to DX than VTM:B, in my opinion.

Excidium: "They just failed to make it meaningful in any way and it has nothing to do with having a single resource."

Your turn to elaborate on this opinion.

 

[Ninjerk]

Vampire Bloodlines is the only thing that come as close to Deus Ex than a Deus Ex mod.

I don't feel the same way.

Shit anti-C&C inventory system.
Limiting RPG PC progression systems, and where is my weapon modding?
Story events do not change based on actions to the scale of DX.
Level design is pretty linear, even in the hubs. Not good for explore fags, you just go to location X, talk to character Y, do mission Z. This is the structure of the whole game, nothing changes.
The game is basically set on one plane, no verticality at all.
Whereas DX gave you multiple tools to tackle obstacles to consider investing in and thus furthering the sense of freedom and increasing gameplay depth, with VTM:B if you don't have the correct tool/skill level there is no other option.
Interactivity in general is not even close to being on DX's level.
It's combat and stealth are lacklustre.
Etc etc.

with good gameplay.

As far as FPS/RPGs go, it's gameplay is pretty shit, namely the combat. It's writing and atmosphere makes it an all-time great, but I wouldn't consider it close to being on DX's level nor better than all of the FP RPGs in general.

Emphasis mine, Bloodlines' PC progression systems I would argue are superior to those of Deus Ex. Not only is character advancement optional in Deus Ex it is also handled in an extremely clumsy manner. The weapon modding was mediocre at best.

Then you want to say that the COMBAT and STEALTH are lacklustre in Bloodlines? The two arguably weakest aspects of Deus Ex gameplay?

 

[CyberP]

"Arx Fatalis, SS2 or even VTM:B are closer to DX than VTM:B, in my opinion."

Oh fuck, I meant New Vegas as the third listed comparison, not VTM:B. Also quad post because no edit button.

 

[racofer]

VTM:B is a great motherfucking game.

I LIKED VTM:B THIS MUCH

 

[CyberP]

"The weapon modding was mediocre at best."



Deus Ex's weapon modding was mediocre? It's the best out of all FP RPGs I've played - FO:NV, SS2, STALKER etc. If you play stealth then there is little modding at all, but if you go combat it really adds to the game.

"Then you want to say that the COMBAT and STEALTH are lacklustre in Bloodlines? The two arguably weakest aspects of Deus Ex gameplay?"

Deus Ex's combat and stealth are amazing...though my view is somewhat skewed from years of working on my mod which makes both far better.

"Emphasis mine, Bloodlines' PC progression systems I would argue are superior to those of Deus Ex. Not only is character advancement optional in Deus Ex it is also handled in an extremely clumsy manner."

What is wrong with it being optional? Clumsy? Well there was balancing issues, but the same can be said for all RPGs.

 

[Excidium]

Arx Fatalis, SS2 or even VTM:B are closer to DX than VTM:B, in my opinion.

Excidium: "They just failed to make it meaningful in any way and it has nothing to do with having a single resource."

Your turn to elaborate on this opinion.

Play moar games

 

[CyberP]

That's a bullshit response, as bullshit as your proceeding statement. VTM:B's system obviously is meaningful and has a large affect on the gameplay. So, I'll ask again, elaborate and restate the original opinion as something that actually makes sense.

 

[Ninjerk]

CyberP The stealth is great until you realize you can just shoot your crossbow into a wall and the AI will stare at the wall every single time they hear it. Scope mod is pretty meh since there isn't much reason to use a scope with anything but the sniper rifle, the silencer, and laser mod make the sniper rifle pretty overpowered, but, as with other shoddy aspects, the level design saves Deus Ex (ammo availability, specifically). Although I will say I did forget about the recoil and mag-extender mods which were ok.

That said, the combat is mediocre. It's worse than other FPS gunplay available before and at the time, but also didn't pull of the realistic gunplay vibe well, either.

Oh and fuck the unnecessary third person perspective switching.

Agree. Probably the thing I liked least about DX:HR.

What is wrong with it being optional? Clumsy? Well there was balancing issues, but the same can be said for all RPGs.

Cue character skill vs. player skill argument. I think for a game to meaningfully describe itself as an x-RPG hybrid that character design should be important.

Anyway, the balancing issues really aren't what concern me (I assume you refer to hacking being >>> all other noncombat skills). The actual character advancement wasn't satisfying at all. The baseline shooting gameplay feels mediocre and requires you to be at the top of a particular weapon skill to begin being fun (and even then it pales in comparison to other FPS' gameplay).

I don't say these things lightly--Deus Ex is probably my favorite game of all time (just barely edging Fallout). Let's not pretend that the lesser parts of Deus Ex aren't completely carried by what Deus Ex does well (which is primarily in level design and reactivity). Any other game with that FPS gameplay, character progression mechanics, and art direction would completely flop no matter when it was released.

 

[DalekFlay]

In short, I disagree it does C&C better than Deus Ex as a whole, not even close (all the story events that turn out differently based on your actions & dialogue choices), and SS2 does C&C better in the gameplay, but not in story/dialogue of course.

I meant story C&C. I don't really think of RPG systems choices as C&C, more just a good, solid and varied system. That's just semantics though really. In any event I meant plot/faction/world choices. Those are best in Bloodlines, and I bet that's why it's rated higher here.

 

[CyberP]

That said, the combat is mediocre.

Between augmentations, scopes, lasers, leaning, ammo types, locational health etc, in addition to numerous ways to approach a combat situation, I found vanilla DX's combat to be very enjoyable and a excellent mix of stat & skill-based combat.

Cue character skill vs. player skill argument. I think for a game to meaningfully describe itself as an x-RPG hybrid that character design should be important.

Well, you need to upgrade your character to turn it from stat/skill based hybrid into mostly skill-based, and you have to upgrade skills etc to explore everywhere. They are mandatory in the sense that if you want to get the full experience you have to upgrade.

Anyway, the balancing issues really aren't what concern me (I assume you refer to hacking being >>> all other noncombat skills). The actual character advancement wasn't satisfying at all.
The baseline shooting gameplay feels mediocre and requires you to be at the top of a particular weapon skill to begin being fun (and even then it pales in comparison to other FPS' gameplay).

Yes, the "feel" of the weaponry wasn't going to be as top-notch as straight-up FPS' of the time because DX did far more overall than those games. Also, my mod...I've specifically focused on what people with respectable opinions have problems in with that game, which for the most part is in-line with my opinions/issues with it, said issues being AI, weaponry behaviour, balancing and so on.

Now I have to bail on this discussion because every DX discussion I have with someone ends up leading to "My mod fixes this", and I look like an arrogant ass.

So, VTM:B: a well-written, atmospheric experience let down by it's gameplay and numerous bugs. It's a shame Troika wasn't given the time they deserved, but I think the devs themselves weren't great designers when it comes to gameplay anyhow. I've considered modding it numerous times with a focus on gameplay, and maybe one day I actually will.

I meant story C&C. I don't really think of RPG systems choices as C&C, more just a good, solid and varied system. That's just semantics though really. In any event I meant plot/faction/world choices. Those are best in Bloodlines, and I bet that's why it's rated higher here.

C&C can apply solely to gameplay also, not just gameplay choices resulting in consequences in the story.
So for example if we choose to use our last explosive to blow up a robot rather than saving it to breach a door, we just made a choice with a consequence as bye bye robot, but fuck, cannot open the door.

Deus Ex was packed full of C&C in gameplay and story. But yes, when choosing different vampire races in VTM:B it perhaps has more C&C, but just how much? I could swear there is little difference between most races except Malkavian and Brujah, but I have only played three times of seven, not enough to see everything.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Maybe we should have a Kool Kodex Konvention in 2017 when Fallout turns 20.

Or not.

Anniversaries don't make much sense to me. It can be a good way of spreading the word to new people, I guess, but I tend to play the greats once a year or so anyway.

 

[ghostdog]

A lot of C&C buzzwords ITT. Inventory C&C lol.

Anyway, Dues Ex is my favorite game but it isn't very heavy on choices in either augmentations or skills (since some are rather worthless and they're not that many to begin with). Neither it is in story C&C, even if it has some very nice moments. And please don't mention inventory you can easily carry 5-6 weapons of various sizes, the fact that you can't carry them all isn't some super C&C. Where DX excels is that it gives you a gazillion of ways to deal with each map and each encounter, enhanced by its incredible area design. That's not exactly C&C but it's awesome design nevertheless.

On the other hand VTMB for starters provides you with 7 classes to choose from. Each class has different powers and attributes that alter the gameplay and story (some more, some less). That alone gives you a good deal of starting choices and at least 4 pretty different playthroughs. Further more you get a shitload of story C&C and also multiple ways to solve quests/missions. In character progression it's about the same as DX, some worthless skills and a somewhat linear progression with only a few key choices, but some decisions with social skills that directly affect the way you play the game, unlike DX.

So which is better in C&C ? Probably VTMB, but who gives a fuck.

I've played these 2 games more than any other. VTMB at least 7 times and DX 8-10.

 

[CyberP]

Inventory C&C lol.

Yes, it's a thing. You cannot have all skills, augs & tools in one playthrough. Intentional for C&C in the gameplay and common design in most great RPGs.

VTMB at least 7 times and DX 8-10.

VTM:B 3 times, DX about 20. VTM:B has very little C&C in the gameplay, and therefore little replayability if you are a gameplayfag, like me.

 

[Ninjerk]

 

[CyberP]

What, 20 playthroughs? I've come across someone who claimed 45 or so. Also that's 20 including with my mod...gotta extensively test that shit in addition to all the volunteer testers because only I know exactly what to look for in every detail and it's a fairly complex game. Plus I made the mod primarily for myself so I have a good time doing so. I plan another "test run" soon

 

[Lhynn]

Who gives a shit?

 

[Roguey]

ITT a bunch of people argue which junk systems are better than others.

JES's has them all beat of course.

 

[Western]

In Bloodlines I also appreciate playing Tremere, Nosferatu and Malkavian are fairly different experiences.

 

[CyberP]

ITT a bunch of people argue which junk systems are better than others.

JES's has them all beat of course.

What has them all beat, Roguey?

 

[Roguey]

ITT a bunch of people argue which junk systems are better than others.

JES's has them all beat of course.

What has them all beat, Roguey?

Fallout: New Vegas, the greatest role playing shooter. And it'll probably remain such until Sawyer gets a crack at a RPS of his own making.

 

[Ninjerk]

ITT a bunch of people argue which junk systems are better than others.

JES's has them all beat of course.

What has them all beat, Roguey?

Roguey is one of the few Codexers who could be considered "prestigious." Listen well.

 

[CyberP]

Fallout: New Vegas, the greatest role playing shooter. And it'll probably remain such until Sawyer gets a crack at a RPS of his own making.

FO:NV is a great game, but it's systems do not greatly differ from other FP/RPGs at all. You were bashing System Shock 2 in another thread for example when it's systems are very similar.

Doesn't differ from certain other FP RPGs rather, namely those that are Looking Glass-inspired, which FO:NV shares a lot in common with.

 

[Roguey]

FO:NV is a great game, but it's systems do not greatly differ from other FP/RPGs at all. You were bashing System Shock 2 in another thread for example when it's systems are very similar.

Only in the most superficial sense that they're both first person games where you can shoot things and have progression and customization systems. New Vegas: actually balanced, keeps degeneracy to a minimum.

 

[CyberP]

"New Vegas: actually balanced, keeps degeneracy to a minimum."

No & no. We'll discuss this tommorow.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Roguey is one of the few Codexers who could be considered "prestigious." Listen well.

This actually made me laugh

(And I do like Roguey )