So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

[Excidium]

FNV is better than all those games, specially considered what they had to work with

 

[Roguey]

Keep telling yourself that. He also did some work for Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows

That was all thrown out.

Games aren't judged on a theoretical level.

And I don't. Are there RPGs with great content and elegant systems? No.

New Vegas is ascended mediocrity (like Icewind Dale, the best games he ever did), not even a flawed gem let alone a great RPG.

RPG Codex list of top RPGs ever disagrees with you, and it was even created with the intention of proving your claim. It failed quite miserably.

It disagrees with me too, but I can understand why it does.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Yes, a triple A multiplatform game is so much more impressive than a game developed by a single guy that has better AI and combat than games made by hundreds of people. Those androgynous Californian hipsters sure have it tough making a sequel to one of the best selling and most critically acclaimed games of the last console generation.

 

[Excidium]

It is

 

[TheGreatOne]

ur wrong

RPG Codex list of top RPGs ever disagrees with you

The same list has a hard time grasping the CRPG concept, claims that Morrowind is better than any gold box, wizardry or ultima game, places U5 below garbage like Dragon Age, Witcher, Elder Scrolls and Alpha Protocol (and even games that are hardly RPGs like QFG4) and has a top 9 that consists almost entirely of games with insipid/broken/mediocre combat (BG2 being the only exception), so you might aswell reference an IGN poll where OOT, FFX, Fallout 3 and Oblivion are the highest ranking RPGs.

 

[Excidium]

ur wrong

You're just new and in serious need to lurk moar

The fact that a game made for the lowest common denominator on the Fallout 3 engine not only is actually good for the most part but has some of the best quest design in CRPGs holds more significance to me (and speaks a lot about the genre) than somebody taking the OGL and implementing it in a barebones video game

 

[TheGreatOne]

That's like saying that Bioshock is better than SS2 because hey look, it's not as bad as those other shooters on Xbox 360 that have even less depth.
And some people wonder why developers don't bother putting any effort into AI design.

 

[Excidium]

Excellent analogy

 

[Roguey]

The same list has a hard time grasping the CRPG concept, claims that Morrowind is better than any gold box, wizardry or ultima game, places U5 below garbage like Dragon Age, Witcher, Elder Scrolls and Alpha Protocol (and even games that are hardly RPGs like QFG4) and has a top 9 consisting entirely of games with insipid/broken/mediocre combat so you might aswell reference an IGN poll where OOT, FFX, Fallout 3 and Oblivion are the highest ranking RPGs.

Reminder that you're so stupid you believe Bloodlines has more C&C than New Vegas. Bloodlines, a game where reactivity is purely scripted, as opposed to New Vegas which has both scripted and indirect systematic reactivity. Bloodlines, where some NPCs are unable to be attacked/killed at all and some bosses are mandatory, compared to New Vegas where you can kill literally everyone who isn't Yes Man or no one at all. Bloodlines, where you're forced to deal with a whole bunch of Therese/Jeanette bullshit just to unlock a fence, compared to New Vegas where you can go anywhere from the start if you can meet the challenge. Bloodlines, where the faction choice happens only at the very end, the choice doesn't affect the content at all other than the final cutscene, and two of the choices give you non-standard game overs because your character would have to be the stupidest fucker on the planet to trust the prince or Ming Xiao. Whereas the New Vegas faction choice happens midgame, affects content, and going Legion doesn't fuck you over.

Then there's the matter of your believing Deus Ex, a game with useless skills like swimming and environmental training, many skills not worth going past trained or advanced, and unbalanced as fuck weapons, and System Shock 2 with its hard weapon requirements, skills that are totally worthless because items perform their function perfectly, and unbalanced as fuck weapons and psi powers have better systems than New Vegas.

Roguey gets roped into another unproductive rant.

 

[Nikaido]

ur wrong

RPG Codex list of top RPGs ever disagrees with you

The same list has a hard time grasping the CRPG concept, claims that Morrowind is better than any gold box, wizardry or ultima game, places U5 below garbage like Dragon Age, Witcher, Elder Scrolls and Alpha Protocol (and even games that are hardly RPGs like QFG4) and has a top 9 that consists almost entirely of games with insipid/broken/mediocre combat (BG2 being the only exception), so you might aswell reference an IGN poll where OOT, FFX, Fallout 3 and Oblivion are the highest ranking RPGs.

Yes, Morrowind is better than utter garbage like the Ultima series. By far.

 

[Ninjerk]

The same list has a hard time grasping the CRPG concept, claims that Morrowind is better than any gold box, wizardry or ultima game, places U5 below garbage like Dragon Age, Witcher, Elder Scrolls and Alpha Protocol (and even games that are hardly RPGs like QFG4) and has a top 9 consisting entirely of games with insipid/broken/mediocre combat so you might aswell reference an IGN poll where OOT, FFX, Fallout 3 and Oblivion are the highest ranking RPGs.

Reminder that you're so stupid you believe Bloodlines has more C&C than New Vegas. Bloodlines, a game where reactivity is purely scripted, as opposed to New Vegas which has both scripted and indirect systematic reactivity. Bloodlines, where some NPCs are unable to be attacked/killed at all and some bosses are mandatory, compared to New Vegas where you can kill literally everyone who isn't Yes Man or no one at all. Bloodlines, where you're forced to deal with a whole bunch of Therese/Jeanette bullshit just to unlock a fence, compared to New Vegas where you can go anywhere from the start if you can meet the challenge. Bloodlines, where the faction choice happens only at the very end, the choice doesn't affect the content at all other than the final cutscene, and two of the choices give you non-standard game overs because your character would have to be the stupidest fucker on the planet to trust the prince or Ming Xiao. Whereas the New Vegas faction choice happens midgame, affects content, and going Legion doesn't fuck you over.

Then there's the matter of your believing Deus Ex, a game with useless skills like swimming and environmental training, many skills not worth going past trained or advanced, and unbalanced as fuck weapons, and System Shock 2 with its hard weapon requirements, skills that are totally worthless because items perform their function perfectly, and unbalanced as fuck weapons and psi powers have better systems than New Vegas.

Roguey gets roped into another unproductive rant.

Also stupid enough to use the term "true RPG" without irony.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Yes, Morrowind is better than utter garbage like the Ultima series. By far.

Morrowind is even worse, all TES games are. They're just trying to copy Ultima. Nothing Elder Scrolls series has produced compares to U5. Underworld is a fine game too.

Reminder that you're so stupid you believe Bloodlines has more C&C than New Vegas. Bloodlines, a game where reactivity is purely scripted, as opposed to New Vegas which has both scripted and indirect systematic reactivity. Bloodlines, where some NPCs are unable to be attacked/killed at all and some bosses are mandatory, compared to New Vegas where you can kill literally everyone who isn't Yes Man or no one at all. Bloodlines, where you're forced to deal with a whole bunch of Therese/Jeanette bullshit just to unlock a fence, compared to New Vegas where you can go anywhere from the start if you can meet the challenge. Bloodlines, where the faction choice happens only at the very end, the choice doesn't affect the content at all other than the final cutscene, and two of the choices give you non-standard game overs because your character would have to be the stupidest fucker on the planet to trust the prince or Ming Xiao. Whereas the New Vegas faction choice happens midgame, affects content, and going Legion doesn't fuck you over.

I said "VTMB has better C&C in dialogue and how the world treats your character depending on your race and mental&social skills". I don't recall having to move through sewers to avoid contact with people or hallucinating shit in New Vegas because I picked a wrong kind of human.
I did not claim that VTMB has more C&C in how you follow the storyline and how it branches. It's a linear game like DX and SS2. And it also placed higher than NV on that Codex RPG list you just advertised.

Then there's the matter of your believing Deus Ex, a game with useless skills like swimming and environmental training, many skills not worth going past trained or advanced, and unbalanced as fuck weapons, and System Shock 2 with its hard weapon requirements, skills that are totally worthless because items perform their function perfectly, and unbalanced as fuck weapons and psi powers have better systems than New Vegas.

So players should have C&C but not be able to make bad choices? Environmental training is stupid, but so is learning melee fighting by reading a comic book. DX and SS2 have better RPG systems than NV because they make their respective combat systems work comparatively better. You did not have to shoot an entire magazine to kill a trash mob in them at low levels. Deus Ex's crosshairs are an infinitely better example of how to mix RPG elements with real time combat than the video on 4th page (applies to NV's combat also).

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

The fact that a game made for the lowest common denominator on the Fallout 3 engine not only is actually good for the most part but has some of the best quest design in CRPGs holds more significance to me (and speaks a lot about the genre) than somebody taking the OGL and implementing it in a barebones video game

Two can play at the reductionist game. The fact that a barebones D&D game made by one libertarian frog is good for the most part, in addition to boasting of extremely solid encounter design, holds a lot more significance to me than somebody taking Fallout 3 and stuffing a bunch of skill checks and non-retarded writing into it.

Snark aside, I'd disagree completely that New Vegas was "good for the most part". Core gameplay systems like combat/stealth/movement were abysmal. As for the quest design, it was mostly solid, with some exceptional pieces, but not terribly visionary nor all that fun to play minute-to-minute.

 

[Excidium]

Snark aside, I'd disagree completely that New Vegas was "good for the most part". Core gameplay systems like combat/stealth/movement were abysmal. As for the quest design, it was mostly solid, with some exceptional pieces, but not terribly visionary nor all that fun to play minute-to-minute.

We are talking in the context of CRPGs

 

[Roguey]

I said "VTMB has better C&C in dialogue and how the world treats your character depending on your race and mental&social skills". I don't recall having to move through sewers to avoid contact with people or

New Vegas's scope is far larger when it comes to reputation. You have to avoid people if they shoot you on sight without a disguise, and even with, you have to avoid those who would see through it. There are also low-int dialogues.

hallucinating shit in New Vegas because I picked a wrong kind of human.

Wild Wasteland, fucker.

And it also placed higher than NV on that Codex RPG list you just advertised.

A lot of people love the art direction, facial animations, and walking&talking interactive experiences with passable writing.

So players should have C&C but not be able to make bad choices?

Uh huh. Every choice should have a reward and a drawback. Choices that are all reward or all/mostly drawback belong in the past.

Environmental training is stupid, but so is learning skills from books.

I don't dislike it because of some arbitrary simulationist nonsense. It's a bad use of points compared to other skills.

You did not have to shoot an entire magazine to kill a trash mob in them at low levels.

You don't have to in New Vegas either.

Deus Ex's crosshairs are an infinitely better example of how to mix RPG elements with real time combat than the video on 4th page (applies to NV's combat also).

They're an utter failure.

Role-playing shooters have moved away from this nonsense because it's dumb and not fun. Getting rid of it was one of the few things Invisible War got right. It was only included in Alpha Protocol because out-of-touch cargo cult Sega producers forced Obsidian to use it.

Furthermore, that video you posted is stupid because it's someone using the first gun available on a traveling merchant who intentionally has a large amount of health to survive attacks in the wasteland. As Josh has mentioned before, Fuckin' Lethal gunplay is Not Fallout and reduces the number of supported playstyles. The ideal way of handling combat in Deus Ex is sneaking around and headshotting, blowing up, or knocking out people before they even get the wits to attack you. That's not something to strive for in every game with guns and role playing.

 

[tuluse]

Roguey all riled up. This is fun.

 

[DashiDMV]

Since CCP shit the bed with the IP, hopefully someone will wake the remants of Troika from their torpor and some kind of progress can be made to at least get the rights to a single player adventure.

Although now that Smiling Jack became Smiling Jake, might have to pony up

Until then at least we have all the cool fan efforts out there. Looking forward to Antitribu which doesn't seem too far off.

 

[Jick Magger]

Fuck this shit I just wanna play video games

 

[Lhynn]

FNV is a great game, that said i enjoyed VtMB more, as a matter of fact most people did, i have no idea why, maybe the story was better told, maybe its just the setting thats more appealing, who knows.

 

[tuluse]

FNV is a great game, that said i enjoyed VtMB more, as a matter of fact most people did, i have no idea why, maybe the story was better told, maybe its just the setting thats more appealing, who knows.

Bloodlines sold like 200k, New Vegas sold like 5 million.

Some people are very vocal about liking Bloodlines, but I doubt it's more enjoyed.

 

[Excidium]

FNV is a great game, that said i enjoyed VtMB more, as a matter of fact most people did, i have no idea why, maybe the story was better told, maybe its just the setting thats more appealing, who knows.

Bloodlines is shorter and sweeter...like Deus Ex it is easy to replay, FNV requires some mental preparation because of all the content padding between the good parts

 

[Ninjerk]

Since CCP shit the bed with the IP, hopefully someone will wake the remants of Troika from their torpor and some kind of progress can be made to at least get the rights to a single player adventure.

Although now that Smiling Jack became Smiling Jake, might have to pony up

Until then at least we have all the cool fan efforts out there. Looking forward to Antitribu which doesn't seem too far off.

It's going to be a shame whatever happens to the WW rights. If CCP fucks themselves over and ruins their only cash cow (either by poor design or just not doing anything with it), we get to see the WW rights passed around to every filthy franchise rapist that can get their hands on it.

 

[imweasel]

New Vegas has shitty mechanics (not Obsidian's fault) and has substantial level scaling. The character design in Bloodlines is fucking top notch, the mechanics are solid and the combat is much better too. Writing and world design is very good in both games. Even Stealth (something that Sawyer is so fond of) is also much better in Bloodlines.

New Vegas is a good game that I personally really enjoyed, but Bloodlines is better.

 

[Lhynn]

FNV is a great game, that said i enjoyed VtMB more, as a matter of fact most people did, i have no idea why, maybe the story was better told, maybe its just the setting thats more appealing, who knows.

Bloodlines is shorter and sweeter...like Deus Ex it is easy to replay, FNV requires some mental preparation because of all the content padding between the good parts

2 months and im going anus_pounder on you.

 

[DalekFlay]

The same list has a hard time grasping the CRPG concept, claims that Morrowind is better than any gold box, wizardry or ultima game, places U5 below garbage like Dragon Age, Witcher, Elder Scrolls and Alpha Protocol (and even games that are hardly RPGs like QFG4) and has a top 9 that consists almost entirely of games with insipid/broken/mediocre combat (BG2 being the only exception), so you might aswell reference an IGN poll where OOT, FFX, Fallout 3 and Oblivion are the highest ranking RPGs.

Well you better leave us casuals behind and find a more hardcore PC RPG forum oh wait you're fucked.