So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

[ERYFKRAD]

People read Roguey's posts?

In the name of butthurt, one can only hope.

 

[Ninjerk]

Roguey you are wrong, a games quality does not dictate its sales, you should know better than to argue that point. Honestly its fucking retarded to even suggest it is so.

More strawmanning.

Wait, what? you really are claiming this is so? Fuck this shit, i thought you were just trolling or at least were misunderstood. No, im not having this argument.

Yes, just like the alcoholic doesn't have vodka hidden in the kitchen cabinets.

EDIT: Your retardation calls you to stand up and be counted

 

[Roguey]

Modern casual gamers refuse to play anything with "bad graphics" and/or are completely oblivious that such a game even exists

Ah yes, that indie failure Minecraft.

The internet and Human Revolution exist. Pretty sure most people who play games know what Deus Ex is.

10 million Fallout 3 fans can't be wrong. With the exception of Starcraft those games aren't as deep as "immersive sims" or CRPGs, deep and complex games dont sell as much as accessible games. Mario Party 8 has sold 7½ million copies, which you can bet is more than Fallout, Torment let alone less mainstream games.

I see you've once again lost the plot. I was responding to "And of course there would be more copies of New Vegas than SS2. There were more people playing video games at that time."

So Thief is a first person shooter.

Uh huh. It's also a first person sneaker. A game can wear several hats and bust genres.

And UW: You must be a hardcore cargo cultist to defend a system like this:

However, the skills have very different usefulness, and some of them aren't needed at all.

And then there's the skill training system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4quvLSIX4Yc&t=7m26s

You're defending an even worse system just so you can be cool and oppose System Shock 2? Like I said, you don't care about good design at all, you just like to worship Sawyer.

I never said it was a good system. I said calling SS2 more refined was absurd. They're both failures.

Already showed you numerous examples.

I'm not going to take your word on any of them.

Shit sells, better games don't. It remains to be seen whether a kickstarter game can outsell AAA RPGs. And if you disagree then you should just be banned from this forum.

There you go again thinking "Games that bomb are bad" is synonymous with "All games that sell more are better than all games that sell less."

That's only true in the sense that a game that breaks even or makes money is better than the one that loses.

Yes. How dare people at RPGcodex feel like they know more about RPGs than your average Bioware drone or Fallout 3 bro? What the hell are you even doing here?

From my observations, a lot of them don't. Cargo cult, cargo cult everywhere.

It's pretty common knowledge that Fallout 3 fans disliked New Vegas.

Is it? Josh disagrees. He'd know more about it than you.

A fairly-recent quote from the man himself

Its the same dang reason ppl no longer make skill affect accuracy in shooter rpgs. Because its awful. Kinda crazy that the alpha protocol devs didnt get the memo though.

we did. sega told us to put character skill-based accuracy randomization in because it's "more rpg".

Reiterating that you and other people in this thread = as dumb as extraordinarily dumb video game producers.

 

[tuluse]

I don't think Bloodlines actually lost money. According to Tim Cain all 3 Troika projects were profitable. Although he might have meant that in a funny way like profitable for Troika.

 

[Roguey]

It likely made money over time, but the sales in its first few weeks were absymal ("Bloodlines sales underperformed in the first few weeks, selling 72,000 units ($3.4 million").

Of course its budget was very likely in the mid-to-high single digit millions.

 

[TheGreatOne]

The internet and Human Revolution exist. Pretty sure most people who play games know what Deus Ex is.

Nope. Most people have never even heard about Planescape Torment. There is a shit ton of people who don't know any PC games besides Doom, WoW, Starcraft and Facebook garbage. Deus Ex is pretty famous, but good luck trying to find a modern casual game that has played early 90s CRPGs or has even heard about them.

I see you've once again lost the plot. I was responding to "And of course there would be more copies of New Vegas than SS2. There were more people playing video games at that time."

There are more copies of New Vegas than SS2 for the exact same reason as why there are more copies of Mario Party 8 than Alpha Brotocol or any other game made by JES

Uh huh. It's also a first person sneaker. A game can wear several hats and bust genres.

No. A first person shooter is centered around shooting enemies in first person perspective, Thief and to UW are not.

I never said it was a good system. I said calling SS2 more refined was absurd. They're both failures.

SS2 is more refined than UW, if you had ever played UW, you'd know that. UW might be a failure, but less so than New Vegas, as atleast UW has historical signifance where as NW doesn't. SS2 is better than both though.

I'm not going to take your word on any of them.

Then start playing them. "There can't be any good games that sold poorly because I personally have never played one" is a fucking retarded and egotistic thing to say, plain ignorance and factually incorrect. The world does not revolve around you. Typical of a modern casual gamer who has his head buried in sand and can't comprehend that those shiny AAA games that are advertised on your Xbox dashboard aren't the greatest games of all time even though the IGN reviewer called them "simply breath taking 9.5/10"

There you go again thinking "Games that bomb are bad" is synonymous with "All games that sell more are better than all games that sell less."

I showed you numerous examples of games that didn't just do poorly but bombed. There are many more if you look into the subject.

From my observations, a lot of them don't.

That's because you're a casual gamer. People who think that New Vegas, Diablo 3, Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 are the greatest RPGs of all time value different kind of game design than RPGcodex members.

Cargo cult, cargo cult everywhere.

No one besides you gives a fuck about "cargo cult" and it just shows that you don't understand anything about game design. All you can do is spam "cargo cult" at games that weren't made by JES because you can't come up with a rational argument for why modern popamole trash is better than golden age CRPGs. That's because it's an impossible task and you know it. It's the same as me labeling every argument made by you as "tranny sentiments" so that I don't have to explain why the argument you're making is wrong.

Is it? Josh disagrees. He'd know more about it than you..

Well if Josh has data to back it up, I guess New Vegas wasn't that different from Fallout 3 after all, my bad. So New Vegas isn't even ascended mediocrity, it's up there with one of the worst RPGs of all time.

Reiterating that you and other people in this thread = as dumb as extraordinarily dumb video game producers.

Nope, I already said that all FPSRPGs fail, you're the one defending poor design. Like Josh Sawyer said, it's pointless to compare different junk systems.

It likely made money over time, but the sales in its first few weeks were absymal ("Bloodlines sales underperformed in the first few weeks, selling 72,000 units ($3.4 million").

Yes and this has nothing to do with the fact that it was released the same day as the biggest PC game of all time. New Vegas was buggy when it was released so I guess I should judge how horrible that game is by how it did and was during the release week, not by how it has sold over time after it was patched, got a modding community etc.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I like this guy.

 

[Irenaeus]

Interestingly, I only bought Half Life 2 in like 2006. And I was playing Bloodlines a lot in 2004 and 2005.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Cargo cults are marked by a number of common characteristics, including a "myth-dream" that is a synthesis of indigenous and foreign elements; the expectation of help from the ancestors; charismatic leaders; and lastly, belief in the appearance of an abundance of goods.[7]

The indigenous societies of Melanesia were typically characterized by a "big man" political system in which individuals gained prestige through gift exchanges. The more wealth a man could distribute, the more people in his debt, and the greater his renown. Those who were unable to reciprocate were identified as "rubbish men". Faced, through colonialism, with foreigners with a seemingly unending supply of goods for exchange, indigenous Melanesians experienced "value dominance". That is, they were dominated by others in terms of their own (not the foreign) value system; exchange with foreigners left them feeling like Rubbish men.[8]

Since the modern manufacturing process is unknown to them, members, leaders, and prophets of the cults maintain that the manufactured goods of the non-native culture have been created by spiritual means, such as through their deities and ancestors. These goods are intended for the local indigenous people, but the foreigners have unfairly gained control of these objects through malice or mistake.[9] Thus, a characteristic feature of cargo cults is the belief that spiritual agents will, at some future time, give much valuable cargo and desirable manufactured products to the cult members.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

 

[Irenaeus]

So it's like Fargo Cult. Paging Daedalus3000

 

[Athelas]

New Vegas was buggy when it was released so I guess I should judge how horrible that game is by how it did and was during the release week, not by how it has sold over time after it was patched, got a modding community etc.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/11/08/fallout-new-vegas-ships-5-million

 

[racofer]

I wrote a long paragraph on why Bethesda related games are shit, but instead I will translate it into Codex:

I refuse to mod games into playable states, and that goes for New Vegas as well. If a game is not playable vanilla, then at least one big fucking fix patch should exist to set things right ala VTM:B. That said, I don't give a shit how great factions and quest design are in a game like New Vegas, because I don't enjoy playing around with a fuckton of mods to get a proper working game.

Another Wesp should come along and fix those games.

 

[Excidium]

Only mod I ever used on Faggout New Faggot is JE Sawyer's Mod

 

[karfhud]

I wrote a long paragraph on why Bethesda related games are shit, but instead I will translate it into Codex:

I refuse to mod games into playable states, and that goes for New Vegas as well. If a game is not playable vanilla, then at least one big fucking fix patch should exist to set things right ala VTM:B. That said, I don't give a shit how great factions and quest design are in a game like New Vegas, because I don't enjoy playing around with a fuckton of mods to get a proper working game.

Another Wesp should come along and fix those games.

I didn't download a single mod for NV and it was totally playable.

 

[Akasen]

I wrote a long paragraph on why Bethesda related games are shit, but instead I will translate it into Codex:

I refuse to mod games into playable states, and that goes for New Vegas as well. If a game is not playable vanilla, then at least one big fucking fix patch should exist to set things right ala VTM:B. That said, I don't give a shit how great factions and quest design are in a game like New Vegas, because I don't enjoy playing around with a fuckton of mods to get a proper working game.

Another Wesp should come along and fix those games.

Fuck you bro, Wesp is a total nazi pig. Tessera all the way.

(No but seriously, I just use True Patch Gold)

 

[Roguey]

Only mod I ever used on Faggout New Faggot is JE Sawyer's Mod

That and MTUI and the inventory sorter.

Too bad the UI graphics make something like SkyUI not happening.

Nope. Most people have never even heard about Planescape Torment.

Most people who play PC games have heard of Planescape Torment. Hell, it's GOG's #1 selling title of all time. A proposed spiritual sequel got a ton of coverage from the gaming press. You're fucking ridiculous.

There are more copies of New Vegas than SS2 for the exact same reason as why there are more copies of Mario Party 8 than Alpha Brotocol or any other game made by JES

SS2 isn't a particularly-demanding game (unless you spend points where you shouldn't). It bombed because it sucks.

No. A first person shooter is centered around shooting enemies in first person perspective, Thief and to UW are not.

Auuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiism.

SS2 is more refined than UW, if you had ever played UW, you'd know that.

I have. Things more refined in SS2: Controls, UI, graphics. Both receive failing grades-systems wise.

Then start playing them.

No. None of them sound appealing.

That's because you're a casual gamer. People who think that New Vegas, Diablo 3, Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 are the greatest RPGs of all time value different kind of game design than RPGcodex members.

People who think Fallout, Torment, and Arcanum are the greatest RPGs of all time certainly don't value gameplay.

No one besides you gives a fuck about "cargo cult" and it just shows that you don't understand anything about game design. All you can do is spam "cargo cult" at games that weren't made by JES because you can't come up with a rational argument for why modern popamole trash is better than golden age CRPGs. That's because it's an impossible task and you know it. It's the same as me labeling every argument made by you as "tranny sentiments" so that I don't have to explain why the argument you're making is wrong.

I think all RPGs are bad. New Vegas is only a slight cut above the rest.

Some of the RPGs I've tolerated the most include Deus Ex, Knights of the Chalice, Icewind Dale 2, Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Fallout 1 and 2, and Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, and I've completed all of them, some more than once, so the idea that I'm someone who only likes modern multiplatform stuff is puzzling.

Yes and this has nothing to do with the fact that it was released the same day as the biggest PC game of all time.

Different audiences.

 

[Nikaido]

Roguey, if RPG suck and you can barely tolerate them, I'd be curious to hear what game you think is a game that doesn't suck. A game you find genuinely appealing. No matter which genre. Just say it. Shower us with that mythical unicorn of game design.

 

[Roguey]

Roguey, if RPG suck and you can barely tolerate them, I'd be curious to hear what game you think is a game that doesn't suck. A game you find genuinely appealing. No matter which genre. Just say it. Shower us with that mythical unicorn of game design.

Gameboy Donkey Kong, World of Goo, Super Metroid, Super Mario Bros 3, Yoshi's Island, Flashback, Hitman: Blood Money, Devil May Cry 3.

Lot of puzzles and platforms and puzzle-platformers. DMC3 is the odd one out, but it's a very well-done melee-combat game. Also Josh-approved, so is Blood Money.

Pretty lacking in PC games but that's because most of that stuff is janky with needless/bullshit complexity and/or blind guessing. Elegance is more likely to be found in simplicity.

 

[adddeed]

Then what the hell are you doing on the RPGcodex? Go on the super mario board or something, filthy casual.

 

[Excidium]

She's here spreading the gospel of St. Joshua Sawyer to save us from degeneracy

 

[Lhynn]

I like Non-RPGs.

Pretty lacking in PC games but because they hurt my brain.

I dont mind complex games, especially when that complexity is used to enrich the game and increase the options the player has at his disposals to interact with it.

 

[CyberP]

Gameboy Donkey Kong, World of Goo, Super Metroid, Super Mario Bros 3, Yoshi's Island, Flashback, Hitman: Blood Money, Devil May Cry 3.

Why gameboy Donkey Kong and not SNES or NES DK? Why Super Metriod and Not one of the Metriodvanias? Why DMC3 and not the original?

Also Josh-approved, so is Blood Money.

Get off his dick, I'm sure he doesn't want you on it anyway.

Pretty lacking in PC games but that's because most of that stuff is janky with needless/bullshit complexity and/or blind guessing. Elegance is more likely to be found in simplicity.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Nikaido]

Roguey, if RPG suck and you can barely tolerate them, I'd be curious to hear what game you think is a game that doesn't suck. A game you find genuinely appealing. No matter which genre. Just say it. Shower us with that mythical unicorn of game design.

Gameboy Donkey Kong, World of Goo, Super Metroid, Super Mario Bros 3, Yoshi's Island, Flashback, Hitman: Blood Money, Devil May Cry 3.

Lot of puzzles and platforms and puzzle-platformers. DMC3 is the odd one out, but it's a very well-done melee-combat game. Also Josh-approved, so is Blood Money.

Pretty lacking in PC games but that's because most of that stuff is janky with needless/bullshit complexity and/or blind guessing. Elegance is more likely to be found in simplicity.

Updated my roguey.txt.
I.. uh.. well. I expected something to happen, but, probably not such a highly contrived list. Even by codex standards you really seem to be trying hard to hate gaming as a whole if these are the only example of solid game design in your book.

What do you think about Quake 3, for example? isn't that a perfect example of solid PC game design? resource management, map control, variety of weapon each having their own use, solid movement physics, map design, great hit detection and netcode, distinctive visuals with no clutter, highly competitive gameplay. It is almost as perfect as the arena shooter genre could get. Quake 3 is the very definition of elegant simplicity. There is no needless complexity involved, the base mechanics are easy to understand, but hard to master, it just speaks for itself. Extremely high skill ceiling. You begin by mastering the controls, start learning map layout, and then resource/map control etc.

 

[Irenaeus]

This thread is going places.

 

[Broseph]

Yoshi's Island and SMB3 are god tier platformers. Roguey knows best.