So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

[DalekFlay]

Let's talk about Bloodlines. Create a thread for your Super Metroid in General Gaming.

"My" Super Metroid? I'm not Roguey.

I simply think comparing sidescrollers to Bloodlines is a little retarded.

 

[Irenaeus]

I think more retarded is talking about Super Metroid in a Bloodlines thread.

Super Metroid is one of the best games I've ever played. Everything about it is just great. Would definitely put in a list of my top games.

Stay out of this and let's get back to how much we like Bloodlines. Whoever wants to talk about Super Metroid, be it Roguey, tuluse or @DelekFlay, go to General Gaming.

 

[TheGreatOne]

It's not just narrative, it's faction play, world design, setting design, quest writing and quest design, choice and consequence, etc. For many people here these things are a big part of what's good in RPGs. New Vegas did all of them exceptionally well.

I never claimed it was bad at those. I wouldn't have to bash New Vegas if Roguey hadn't shown up and started bashing VTMB, SS2 and DX (+F1&2) while praising JES.

This reeks of "it's highbrow if less people like it" faggotry.

TheGreatOne is what people from other forums think Codexians are.

An autistic dumbfuck who loves bragging about his old skool RPG cred.

Nope, I play all kinds of RPGs, really bad modern ones too. I just tend to avoid modern AAA ones because they are be so boring. I want my RPGs to have good gameplay and design, so I want to see a mix of golden and silver age design.
For example the Devil Survivor games are neither CRPGs nor oldschool and they're a modern example of a well done foundation for a good RPG. Granted due to technical and budget limitations they don't have exploration (thus they're more of tactics games than proper RPGs) and the art style&characters are hideous, but the core gameplay is good, where as in New Vegas everything else might be well crafted except the actual gameplay. DeSu has some C&C (do the wrong choices&spend your time poorly - potential party members and other characters die permanently+6 different endings, you can also piss off people in conversations if I recall), you have a party, and the combat is grid based TB with the SMT elemental system. You have to plan your route and party composition before each fight and the fights are very tough compared to other contemporary games. Naturally it does have flaws, like streamlined stat system (only 4 stats, and they only affect what skills you can learn, no effect on gameplay outside of combat), but it's not realistic to expect New Vegas/Dark Souls level production values and level of content from a budget title on a handheld that couldn't even handle Diablo 2 let alone anything bigger than that. But of course DeSu 1&2 were relatively niche titles where as big budget console/multiplatform RPGs with more eyecandy and much less well designed gameplay did a lot better (I'm not even talking about C&C heavy games like New Vegas here).
The same could be said about KOTC and Shadowrun Returns. Good chassis, expand and improve. You can't do that to a fundamentally flawed system. But what do these big budget developers spend all the millions they have on? Boob physics, shitty movies and sandboxes, while neglecting the core gameplay. Make a isometric/2D game and the world size and the exploration&world building side of development becomes much more manageable with a small budget.

Now imagine something like that on PC (even multiplatform) with a bigger budget: You'd get character creation, party creation (though I guess those derpy BG2/Torment type fixed party members you can recruit if you play your cards right are preferred by most as long as the writing is good, which also adds more C&C), exploration, more C&C that's not just related to saving your characters (talking to random NPCs, more storyline branching), better and more nonlinear story and a better art direction. Maybe add in voice acting if there's any money left, but the design priority should be this: 1. battle system, party management and everything related to that (like demon fusion in DeSu) 2. C&C, nonlinearity (not the same as making a sandbox) 3. writing 4. having a fitting art style. After that it's ok to spend money on voice acting, more animation, music etc. Of course if the gameplay could benefit from world interactivity (like Silent Storm type physics implementation), then that should be a higher priority than 3-5. Good world building and guest design and make up for smaller writing budget (think Looking Glass games: as long as your surroundings and mission paint a good picture of the game world, you don't need to have as much text as the Longest Journey and 8 different voice acted dialogue options).

A ton of mainstream people liking New Vegas would be a good thing, not a bad thing, because it's such incline from Fallout 3.

I agree

 

[CyberP]

New Vegas is only a slight cut above the rest.

Better than Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Twitcher and Alpha Brotocol? Sure. On par with Human Revolution? Maybe. An all time great? No.
.[/QUOTE]

Faggot Revolution isn't even close to NV's level. NV= all time great (though flawed, but this is to be expected). HR= pretty good considering it's

 

[DalekFlay]

Faggot Revolution isn't even close to NV's level. NV= all time great (though flawed, but this is to be expected). HR= pretty good considering it's

Yes.

Every game is flawed. Fallout is flawed. Fallout 2 is flawed. Planescape Torment is definitely flawed. There is no flawless masterpiece anywhere, on any platform or in any genre. The best you can hope for is a game good enough in enough areas to be great overall despite the flaws. New Vegas qualifies.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Faggot Revolution isn't even close to NV's level.

It had more competent gunplay than SS2/F3/NV/DX/VTMB/Bioshock and the combat was harder than in the original (especially at the beginning) which is a very rare thing to see in a modern game

NV= all time great

Haha, oh wow.jpg. If new people are still playing it in 15-20 years, then you can make that claim.

 

[CyberP]

Faggot Revolution isn't even close to NV's level.

It had more competent gunplay than SS2/F3/NV/DX/VTMB/Bioshock and the combat was harder than in the original (especially at the beginning) which is a very rare thing to see in a modern game

You've got to be kidding. Regenerating health, third person cover you can opt to abuse, radar, easy headshots, typhoon, time-stopping regenerating win-button (takedowns). Just no.

 

[Ninjerk]

Faggot Revolution isn't even close to NV's level.

It had more competent gunplay than SS2/F3/NV/DX/VTMB/Bioshock and the combat was harder than in the original (especially at the beginning) which is a very rare thing to see in a modern game

You've got to be kidding. Regenerating health, third person cover you can opt to abuse, radar, easy headshots, typhoon, time-stopping regenerating win-button (takedowns). Just no.

Darts into wall.

 

[Backstabber]

Press Q to win.

 

[DalekFlay]

Faggot Revolution isn't even close to NV's level.

It had more competent gunplay than SS2/F3/NV/DX/VTMB/Bioshock and the combat was harder than in the original (especially at the beginning) which is a very rare thing to see in a modern game

You've got to be kidding. Regenerating health, third person cover you can opt to abuse, radar, easy headshots, typhoon, time-stopping regenerating win-button (takedowns). Just no.

Yeah, I actually really liked Human Revolution but the gunplay was way too easy. Silenced pistol headshots almost felt like god mode.

New Vegas at least has stat-based accuracy, which every RPG/shooter hybrid should have.

 

[TheGreatOne]

You've got to be kidding. Regenerating health, third person cover you can opt to abuse, radar, easy headshots, typhoon, time-stopping regenerating win-button (takedowns). Just no.

Original Deus Ex also had regenerating health. Take downs, highlighted objects and third person cover mechanics were indeed retarded, but they don't remove the fact that it was easier to get killed in HR than it was in the original.
Atleast you could disable the highlighted objects and object locations, but sadly you can't fix fundamentally flawed gameplay mechanics (take downs and third person cover) apart from ignoring them, which is BS. Unless there's a mod to remove those, but using mods to fix games is lame (both in New Vegas and in Human Revolution/original DX).
It gets too easy by the end (as does DX and many other RPGs) with headshotting people with a silenced pistol, but I got instakilled and died far more often in the early stages of HR than I did in System Shock 1/2, Deus Ex, VTMB, Fallout 3/New Vegas and Stalker. HR is all around harder than the original combat wise.

Yeah, I actually really liked Human Revolution but the gunplay was way too easy. Silenced pistol headshots almost felt like god mode.

Like the original it does become easier once you level up and upgrade your equipment, but that has nothing to do with how the guns themselves handle.

New Vegas at least has stat-based accuracy, which every RPG/shooter hybrid should have.

Deus Ex was better at mixing RPG elements with FPS style gameplay, Human Revolution had better physics, gunplay, enemy AI and animations to make combat (and gameplay in general) smoother but wasn't as pure of RT-RPG as the original and not as good in general.

 

[DalekFlay]

Like the original it does become easier once you level up and upgrade your equipment, but that has nothing to do with how the guns themselves handle.

No, it's totally skill-based. As soon as you have a pistol you can head-shot guys for god mode. Before you ever see armored dudes you get the armor-piercing enhancement for the pistol, so you can one-shot dudes from cover the whole game. This is on hardest difficulty as well. The only way to make Human Revolution difficult in the slightest is to play it run-n'-gun style, which is much harder. Same thing with Dishonored, stealth is super easy, run-n'-gun is hard.

 

[dryan]

Bloodlines > Human Revolution > New Fag-ass

 

[Multidirectional]

Yeah, I actually really liked Human Revolution but the gunplay was way too easy. Silenced pistol headshots almost felt like god mode.

Hey that's not combat, that's stealth!

 

[TheGreatOne]

The only way to make Human Revolution difficult in the slightest is to play it run-n'-gun style, which is much harder.

After being used to effortlessly blasting through enemies in the original, I got my ass handed to me in the beginning of HR when I tried to run around shooting people with an assault rifle. I got almost instakilled in the first fire fight at the beginning (when you don't have a ûber pistol yet) over 10 times if I recall correctly. And I had to savescum a lot to get through two of the boss battles (that seemingly every one hated), I even carried a turret with me down an elevator in a vain attempt to make one of the battles easier. That never happened to me in the original. In fact no other FPSRPG that I played before it gave me that much trouble at the start.
So yeah, given that I've both sneaked and ramboed my way through the original, I stand by my statement. I guess JES must hate Human Revolution in that case, as it clearly isn't very balanced.

 

[DalekFlay]

After being used to effortlessly blasting through enemies in the original, I got my ass handed to me in the beginning of HR when I tried to run around shooting people with an assault rifle. I got almost instakilled in the first fire fight at the beginning (when you don't have a ûber pistol yet) over 10 times if I recall correctly. And I had to savescum a lot to get through two of the boss battles (that seemingly every one hated), I even carried a turret with me down an elevator in a vain attempt to make one of the battles easier. That never happened to me in the original. In fact no other FPSRPG that I played before it gave me that much trouble at the start.
So yeah, given that I've both sneaked and ramboed my way through the original, I stand by my statement. I guess JES must hate Human Revolution in that case, as it clearly isn't very balanced.

Like I said, run-n-gun is a harder way to play that game. Though honestly you sound really terrible at playing it in general, somehow.

 

[CyberP]

Deus Ex was better at mixing RPG elements with FPS style gameplay, Human Revolution had better physics, gunplay, enemy AI and animations to make combat (and gameplay in general) smoother but wasn't as pure of RT-RPG as the original and not as good in general.

Translation: "Human Revolution had a more technologically advanced engine."

using mods to fix games is lame (both in New Vegas and in Human Revolution/original DX).

Translation: "I am a faggot".

 

[TheGreatOne]

I don't see how full combat approach being harder contradicts my claim, from my experience HR is overall harder than DX and is also harder than the beginning stages of any of those other FPSRPGs. With the possible exception of SS2, a newbie might easily trigger an alarm or fiddle around with the UI while an enemy sneaks up on them, and there's the psy-monkeys with poorly programmed hitboxes. I went in blind into each of those games, played HR the last so I had most experience with the genre by then, yet I died the most during the first few hours of HR. Then I started leveling up, using a silenced pistol and obviously it became about as easy as DX, with the exception of those bosses.

Translation: "Human Revolution had a more technologically advanced engine."

Which is something that isn't given in modern gaming: Ultima 8, Thief 3, Invisible War and so on+the general trend of not bothering with interactivity and AI, which leads to more primitive looking mid-late 90s games being more technologically advanced than modern games. If people are congratulating New Vegas for making a decent game out of the retarded foundation that is Fallout 3, then the better AI and stuff in Human Revolution is definitely worth a mention.

Translation: "I am a faggot".

Rofl, didn't some one already call you up on your modding faggotry? Yeah who cares about making a good game when you can release a buggy mess and wait your fan boys to do all the work for you. Then after 20 different mods, new models and textures and other fanmade projects people will start crediting you for making a great game. No thanks, I have better things to do than to mod out Skyrim so all the horses have more photorealistic looking rectums.

 

[CyberP]

Darts into wall.

Point taken. I'm trying to fix this currently, damn AI code.

 

[CyberP]

using mods to fix games is lame (both in New Vegas and in Human Revolution/original DX).

Translation: "I am a faggot".

What about Bloodlines? Mods are fucking essential (Wesp patch).

I don't think people realise that if a game's code/assets are open enough you can take an excellent game and just keep on building, and building. I've been doing this for two years now, I can easily see it being 10 because I am a lunatic. <3 Deus Ex. I want to do Bloodlines too, by all means it fucking needs it. Maybe in 10 years time

 

[CyberP]

I don't see how full combat approach being harder contradicts my claim, from my experience HR is overall harder than DX and is also harder than the beginning stages of any of those other FPSRPGs. With the possible exception of SS2, a newbie might easily trigger an alarm or fiddle around with the UI while an enemy sneaks up on them, and there's the psy-monkeys with poorly programmed hitboxes. I went in blind into each of those games, played HR the last so I had most experience with the genre by then, yet I died the most during the first few hours of HR. Then I started leveling up, using a silenced pistol and obviously it became about as easy as DX, with the exception of those bosses.

Translation: "Human Revolution had a more technologically advanced engine."

Which is something that isn't given in modern gaming: Ultima 8, Thief 3, Invisible War and so on+the general trend of not bothering with interactivity and AI, which leads to more primitive looking mid-late 90s games being more technologically advanced than modern games. If people are congratulating New Vegas for making a decent game out of the retarded foundation that is Fallout 3, then the better AI and stuff in Human Revolution is definitely worth a mention.

When you say better AI you are referring to combat behaviour and animations only. Deus Ex's AI factored lighting when looking for the player, reacted to a wider variety of player actions, had a wider variety of barks and dialogue in general, had numerous types of AI including numerous animals, and so on. And as said before, HR's engine is the sole reason why the animations are better, and partly responsible for why the combat behaviour is arguably...better.

Yeah who cares about making a good game when you can release a buggy mess and wait your fan boys to do all the work for you. Then after 20 different mods, new models and textures and other fanmade projects people will start crediting you for making a great game. No thanks, I have better things to do than to mod out Skyrim so all the horses have more photorealistic looking rectums.

Because all devs are Bethesda Softworks now? Ignorance.

 

[TheGreatOne]

I've played through DX multiple times and it's longer than than HR so to be fair it so it had more chances to showcase derpy AI behavior. But I saw less of the kind of broken AI behavior in HR that was around in DX (guards not reacting to bodies, enemies running straight at you to get blasted, not looking for you when you're in a ventilation shaft etc) .
And I don't see how the fact that it runs on a more modern engine contradicts what I'm saying or how it's relevant to what I'm saying. It's a modern game, of course they're able to do things that the tech the original was running on couldn't do. If the gameplay is smoother or the difficulty higher, then it is. U5 is more refined than U4 but U4 will always be remembered as the more important landmark title. DX is all around the better game, but HR beats it in some aspects.

Because all devs are Bethesda Softworks now? Ignorance.

Because I refuse to "fix" a broken game with fan made mods. Unless it's essential for running the game, like an old game having some bug which makes it incapable of running on modern systems with out some tampering. Compare the modding community of Pool of Radiance (JES approved, Roguey) and the Elder Scrolls game and tell me which is the better game. And I don't want to tamper with the creator's original vision, people in 1999 didn't need to see boobs in System Shock 2 and neither should people in 2014. Games with out modding capabilities are judged on the merits of their initial design, where as modding (and even patching) means that now people can fall back on "oh well, it's a great game if you install the My Little Pony mod that changes the Chinatown&sewer levels into Equestria!"

 

[Roguey]

New Vegas at least has stat-based accuracy, which every RPG/shooter hybrid should have.

I got tired of participating in this autism-fest, but it does. There are upgrades that make you more accurate when firing from the hip or using a scope.

Human Revolution's combat and stealth are Josh-approved. Its guns aren't as well-designed as Josh's though.

 

[TheGreatOne]

I couldn't come up with any more excuses for my CRPG hating, decline touting behavior and lost the argument so I fled

Ftfy

 

[Roguey]

The "You say X is great but (game I've never played) is better!!!!!!!!!!!!" parts of your autism-fest made me write off expending any more effort dealing with you.