So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

[tuluse]

So I take that JES school of game design demands that all have RPGs should have the ability to respec, or that no matter how you allocate your stats/experience points, you should still have a viable build.

We wanted to make sure no players made a character so extreme they couldn't advance the game.

~Tim Cain

 

[Irenaeus]

I want to make an exxxtreme character. Fuck Tim Cain in the ass.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Fuck Tim Cain in the ass.

Be careful what you wish for because it might come true
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Cain#Personal_life

He married Robert Land on July 14, 2011

 

[Irenaeus]

thatsthejoke.jpg

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I think what Roguey means is that in that sea of shit those games/movies have redeemable qualities that make the masses like them. Qualities that are probably lacking in stuff we know is better.

Nah, Roguey clearly equated sales with quality ("shit ton of positive qualities" because they have a large audience, make a big profit etc.) which is quite simply being incredibly ignorant, especially in this gaming era in which marketing/hype/celebrity voice actors and simplified/dumb gameplay that appeals to dudebros and housewives are the main factors for commercial success. Oblivion is not better than Morrowind because Bethesda decided to abandon their current fanbase and started catering to people who can't find Caius Cosades, the fact that the later group is much more numerous is not an indication of Oblivion's superior quality as a game/product.

That said, Roguey dug himself into a hole with this one. As I said, if Witcher 3 sells more copies it means that sexist Poles and their cargo cult approach>>>>>>>Josh's pristine perfect PoE system.

 

[adddeed]

Witcher 3 will sell a ton. Was a top seller 9 months before release.

 

[Lhynn]

I think what Roguey means is that in that sea of shit those games/movies have redeemable qualities that make the masses like them. Qualities that are probably lacking in stuff we know is better.

Nah, Roguey clearly equated sales with quality ("shit ton of positive qualities" because they have a large audience, make a big profit etc.) which is quite simply being incredibly ignorant, especially in this gaming era in which marketing/hype/celebrity voice actors and simplified/dumb gameplay that appeals to dudebros and housewives are the main factors for commercial success. Oblivion is not better than Morrowind because Bethesda decided to abandon their current fanbase and started catering to people who can't find Caius Cosades, the fact that the later group is much more numerous is not an indication of Oblivion's superior quality as a game/product.

That said, Roguey dug himself into a hole with this one. As I said, if Witcher 3 sells more copies it means that sexist Poles and their cargo cult approach>>>>>>>Josh's pristine perfect PoE system.

Oblivion got more audience because there were simply more gamers around when it came out, because of morrowinds fame and because it had shiny graphics compared to morrowind, that is all, i dont think complexity had anything to do with its sales, people wanted to lose themselves in an open world and oblivion was there for them.
To put it simply the market was much bigger, the game was about as appealing as a second morrowind with updated graphics would have been for most of the market at the time. Thats my take on it anyway, but maybe you are right and maybe he/she/it went full retard.

 

[Akasen]

To be honest, I still remember when Oblivion first entranced me. I was but a young lad in Junior High at the time and had a very limited grasp of video games beyond my PS2, Gamecube, and copies of the Sims 2 on PC.

Then, I found videos of Oblivion on Youtube. I forget if I found Oblivion during a binge search for Vampire related video games or not, but that may have been it. There were little videos created by some Valkyrie dude that made the games seem so much large than life. Todd Howard and his five-some developer walkthrough's had me entranced, like a child promised great sweets by a stranger. I toiled for years, playing through new game after new game after new game with Oblivion, trying to really capture the roleplaying experience I imagined. I never did. But my struggle through the years along with a crippling depression in High School made me realize something. The lie that was Oblivion. It looked and sounded like the best damn RPG ever. Radiant AI, the idea of how immersive the experience would be, even simply graphics were a lie. I remember Todd Howard mention something about some special shadow effects in the first walkthrough, and it was fucking removed altogether later on.

When the lie was revealed, when my eyes became open, I was full of disgust. A gaming experience that honestly felt very shallow lay before me. A roleplaying experience that was a nearly non-existent. Even if I tried to have fun with the numbers game, it didn't exist. It just really was a gut wrenching thing to realize. The acceptance of this fact created a burning passion of hate. For in my personal circle of friends, there are people who outright look to Oblivion like it was good. Like it did no wrong. I have one person go as far as to say that it makes for a good introduction to RPG's. What rubbish.

 

[Roguey]

Indeed, the measure of quality is sales and mass market appeal.

Want some more straw for your man?

I meant 6-8, not 4.

Similar cargo cult nonsense.

UW: Wikipedia classifies it as: First-person action RPG, dungeon crawler. Thief: Stealth. They're not first person shooters.

Autism. But that was expected.

Except that it was made by Looking Glass fanboys.

God golly, you're falling apart.

So did System Shock 2. And VTMB.

They had some positive aspects, but not enough to make money or break even.

You're in the XTREME minority if you think that SS2 and VTMB deserved to sell poorly but it's allright that Dragon Age 2 makes millions.

Am I? Am I really? On the Codex, sure, but overall?

Like why most PC gamers prefer Deus Ex and System Shock 2 to New Vegas.

Do they? I can guarantee you that there have been more copies of New Vegas sold on PC than there have of SS2 and Deus Ex. Furthermore
http://steamcharts.com/app/6910
http://steamcharts.com/app/22380

One game certainly has a lot more staying-power.

Toonstruck, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Snatcher, The Last Express, Ogre Battle (SNES), Metal Storm, The Neverhood, Gimmick. IIRC: MUSHA, Mega Man 7 (PAL/NTSC-U), Agony. I'm sure there are a lot more of those.

Lovely, a list of things I've never played so I can't decide whether or not you wrong. I did play Mega Man 7, and while not awful as far as Mega Man games go, it was a particular disappointment after X and X2. I wasn't aware that it had lost money, and I can't find a reliable source to confirm that.

 

[Lhynn]

Roguey you are wrong, a games quality does not dictate its sales, you should know better than to argue that point. Honestly its fucking retarded to even suggest it is so.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Similar cargo cult nonsense.

Just like New Vegas, except that Wizardry games have actually good gameplay. Fighting varied monsters and bosses with a party of varied characters using varied spells is a lot deeper, more fun and less repetitive than shooting samey guys with samey guns that feel subpar compared to real shooters. But they don't have as good hiking as New Vegas, I'll give you that.

Autism. But that was expected.

A medieval type dungeon crawler isn't going to magically turn into a first person shooters just by wishing so. And the RPG systems were not as refined in UW as they were in SS2.

Lovely, a list of things I've never played so I can't decide whether or not you wrong. I did play Mega Man 7, and while not awful as far as Mega Man games go, it was a particular disappointment after X and X2. I wasn't aware that it had lost money, and I can't find a reliable source to confirm that.

Toonstruck, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Sega CD port of Snatcher, The Last Express and The Neverhood certainly bombed. Ogre Battle, Metal Storm, MUSHA, Mega Man 7, Gimmick and Agony I'm basing on rarity, it's hard to find sales numbers or any kind of articles for how well mostly forgotten games from early 90s did. There are less than 25 000 English Ogre Battle carts though so its quite safe to say that it did not do well. But you can be certain that there are more games like that on Genesis, SNES, Amiga, Atari ST, DOS and Turbografx (CD). Like Beyond Shadowgate and Magical Chase. Or Judgement Silversword on Wonderswan (though that one has an explanation for its rarity despite the quality).

Mega Man 7 is a good game with good, above average gameplay and level design. Not the kind of masterpiece of design as 2, 9 or X, but neither are most other platformers of the time. But it was considered to be a stale rehash after people had seen X and X2. Oh and before you criticize Agony for being mediocre: I'll freely admit that one is mostly there for technical and artistic merits. Many others do have excellent gameplay/design (X), and ones that don't have enough positive attributes to make up for mediocre gameplay. I can't stand the tank controls in Grim Fandango but many adventure gamers consider it to be the best adventure game of all time and therefore well worth the money despite that flaw.
X=For example Pat the NES Punk, who owns and has played most likely 95+% of the NES game library, stated in his review that Gimmick is one of the best games on the NES. Not only does it have excellent gameplay and good design, it also is technically impressive (physics, AI) and has catchy tunes on top of that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPepjmmZVY&t=1m51s

They had some positive aspects, but not enough to make money or break even.

Whether a game has enough positive aspects or not has nothing to do with whether it'll break even or not.

God golly, you're falling apart.

You're using sales numbers and popularity to defend popamole games and trash some of the perennial favorites of codex members and mid-school (*) PC gamers alike and you're telling me my arguments are falling apart?
*=it feels wrong to call late 90s PC games as old school
Of course those casual gamers are better judges of good design than more educated gamers who are willing to look for hidden games and are able to glance over superficial flaws if a game has depth and well designed content. And you know, possess the ability to analyze design on a more deeper level than "that game was hella bomb dude". Those masses who, according to you, are the judges of whether a game is well designed (or has enough of worthwhile content and positive aspects) also feel that New Vegas is BOORING compared to Fallout 3 and all around an inferior sequel, where as those cargo cultists at RPG Codex will tell you that New Vegas in fact the better designed game out of the two.

 

[Akasen]

ROGUEY YOU STUPID CUNT! WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU USE STEAM STATISTICS TO PROVE WHO PLAYS A GAME MORE OR WHATEVER? I just can't even see how you could sanely do that. I haven't even beat Deus Ex, nor hold it in any holy regard and can tell you how wrong that comparison is using that chart.

And of course there would be more copies of New Vegas than SS2. There were more people playing video games at that time. There is a buttfuck ton of people who played Fallout 3 and went on to play New Vegas. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU USING SALES NUMBERS TO JUSTIFY QUALITY? What the in the holy fuck is wrong with you?

 

[Ninjerk]

Lost another one to :Roguey:

 

[Roguey]

Roguey you are wrong, a games quality does not dictate its sales, you should know better than to argue that point. Honestly its fucking retarded to even suggest it is so.

More strawmanning.

ROGUEY YOU STUPID CUNT! WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU USE STEAM STATISTICS TO PROVE WHO PLAYS A GAME MORE OR WHATEVER? I just can't even see how you could sanely do that. I haven't even beat Deus Ex, nor hold it in any holy regard and can tell you how wrong that comparison is using that chart.

It's not as if Deus Ex hasn't been available for mere dollars numerous times.

And of course there would be more copies of New Vegas than SS2. There were more people playing video games at that time.

Tell that to the millions of copies of Half-Life, Diablo, and Starcraft sold.

Just like New Vegas,

New Vegas is largely not cargo cult.

A medieval type dungeon crawler isn't going to magically turn into a first person shooters just by wishing so.

You shoot things from a first person perspective, ergo first person shooter.

And the RPG systems were not as refined in UW as they were in SS2.

Whether a game has enough positive aspects or not has nothing to do with whether it'll break even or not.

I've yet to see something prove otherwise.

You're using sales numbers and popularity to defend popamole games and trash some of the perennial favorites of codex members and mid-school (*) PC gamers alike and you're telling me my arguments are falling apart?

Triple-straw threat.

Of course those casual gamers are better judges of good design than more educated gamers who are willing to look for hidden games and are able to glance over superficial flaws if a game has depth and well designed content.

This unwarranted elitism.

*suffers through bad gameplay* So... fun....

Those masses who, according to you, are the judges of whether a game is well designed (or has enough of worthwhile content and positive aspects) also feel that New Vegas is BOORING compared to Fallout 3 and all around an inferior sequel, where as those cargo cultists at RPG Codex will tell you that New Vegas in fact the better designed game out of the two.

Do they? Vocal minorities arguing with vocal minorities.

 

[Lhynn]

Roguey you are wrong, a games quality does not dictate its sales, you should know better than to argue that point. Honestly its fucking retarded to even suggest it is so.

More strawmanning.

Wait, what? you really are claiming this is so? Fuck this shit, i thought you were just trolling or at least were misunderstood. No, im not having this argument.

 

[Irenaeus]

Roguey is just trolling.

 

[TheGreatOne]

It's not as if Deus Ex hasn't been available for mere dollars numerous times.

Modern casual gamers refuse to play anything with "bad graphics" and/or are completely oblivious that such a game even exists

Tell that to the millions of copies of Half-Life, Diablo, and Starcraft sold.

10 million Fallout 3 fans can't be wrong. With the exception of Starcraft those games aren't as deep as "immersive sims" or CRPGs, deep and complex games dont sell as much as accessible games. Mario Party 8 has sold 7½ million copies, which you can bet is more than Fallout, Torment let alone less mainstream games.

New Vegas is largely not cargo cult.

It's mostly JES cult. Also no body besides you gives a fuck about whether a game is cargo cult or not.

You shoot things from a first person perspective, ergo first person shooter.

So Thief is a first person shooter. And any game that features a turret section or any other minigame where in the objective is to shoot objects from first person perspective.

And UW: You must be a hardcore cargo cultist to defend a system like this:

However, the skills have very different usefulness, and some of them aren't needed at all.

And then there's the skill training system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4quvLSIX4Yc&t=7m26s

You're defending an even worse system just so you can be cool and oppose System Shock 2? Like I said, you don't care about good design at all, you just like to worship Sawyer.

I've yet to see something prove otherwise.

Already showed you numerous examples. The direction that Western RPGs have taken during the last 13 years is enough to prove you wrong. Shit sells, better games don't. It remains to be seen whether a kickstarter game can outsell AAA RPGs. And if you disagree then you should just be banned from this forum.

Triple-straw threat.

Full retard

This unwarranted elitism.

Yes. How dare people at RPGcodex feel like they know more about RPGs than your average Bioware drone or Fallout 3 bro? What the hell are you even doing here?

*suffers through bad gameplay* So... fun....

My reaction to New Vegas. Thankfully there are so many RPGs with much better gameplay that have been released during the same time period so I didn't have to suffer for long.

Do they? Vocal minorities arguing with vocal minorities.

It's pretty common knowledge that Fallout 3 fans disliked New Vegas. They're the majority and many of them felt that it wasn't as good nor fun as 3. And it was full of bugs and crash prone on top of that. People who had a neutral take on the first game, like Yahtzee, felt like it was more of an expansion pack to 3 than a legit sequel. The vocal minority is people who really hated 3 but like New Vegas.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Want some more straw for your man?

What's the matter Groupey, don't like your argument used against you? Now tell me, what is a more impressive quality, the best designed CRPG system ever (created by systems designer extraordinare that is Josh) or boob physics eye candy? Do you want me to tell you which one will result in (much) more sales? Feeling enlightened yet?

 

[karfhud]

Alright, in the latest interview about Dead State, Brian Mitsoda mentioned there's a project he'd very much like to do afterwards, if only the numbers will add up. Wonder if he might mean returning to a WoD setting.

Also:

 

[likaq]

[
Toonstruck, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Snatcher, The Last Express, Ogre Battle (SNES), Metal Storm, The Neverhood, Gimmick. IIRC: MUSHA, Mega Man 7 (PAL/NTSC-U), Agony. I'm sure there are a lot more of those.

Also Sanitarium, Sacrifice and Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Terra Nova did poorly? Never knew that.

 

[likaq]

From wiki:

Although Terra Nova sold more than 100,000 units, it was a commercial failure because it did not recoup its development costs.[40]Designer Tim Stellmach later characterized its performance as "a disaster"

Yep, TN bombed hard.

 

[likaq]

Why Roguey isn't banned yet?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Why Roguey isn't banned yet?

Because somewhere, someone gets butthurt reading that stuff.

 

[Jaesun]

People read Roguey's posts?