So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

[Ninjerk]

When resolving the hostage situation in Boulder City, I unloaded 19 rounds of a 20 round clip hipfiring into the face of the black chick watching the hostages.

 

[Roguey]

So your gimmick is being the guy who hates challenge in video games and buries old classics on a forum that is almost dedicated to praising old classics and burying modern pussified games.

You're way off if you think Josh or I hate challenge. Not all difficulty is good though.

Because game developers have limitless budgets, manpower etc. Especially ones who make niche games that don't sell very well.

Hmm yes I suppose I am being unreasonable when it comes to engine-choice.

When Irrational was formed in 1997, we were approached by Looking Glass with an interesting proposition. Take the Dark engine used for Thief: The Dark Project and make a cool, new game out of it. “What game do you guys want to do?” they asked us.

OTOH with better design I'd be fine with not-so-good feeling combat. Unfortunately SS2's design is a shameful mess.

Never mind the ideological battle between the two different antagonists and the storyline which was ripped to Bioshock where it was considered to be so good that less intelligent/educated gamers regard it as one of the best examples of the artistic merits of the medium.

They loved it for the plot twiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiist and the "Haha we do blindly follow the orders of disembodied voices in video games!" and the "This is what objectivism leads to, people!" aspects.

On top of that it was the first game to properly combine FPS with RPG, at least that I know of (*).

There was ranged combat in Ultima Underworld so I'd say not. They even name-drop it in SS2's manual.

Created the basis for Deus Ex

Deus Ex shipped a year later, and started development in 1997, so no.

along with Thief (and maybe Half Life)

Um...?

You're using sales figures as an argument. On RPGcodex?

Stating that a game didn't sell well because it lacked good gameplay is retarded because it doesn't apply to RPGs nor other genres, back then nor now (though it's more common these days).

Fallout didn't bomb. Torment didn't bomb. Arcanum and ToEE didn't bomb. Deus Ex was both a sales and critical success (though not as much as the BGs in either category). They had enough positive qualities to find enough of an audience to recoup the money spent making them.

Games that don't have enough to offer typically don't. SS2 and Bloodlines weren't exactly massive-budget either.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Ninjerk
Cool, that means you were using the mythical 12 damage weapon and didn't get a single headshot or critical(Or sneak critical). Seeing as that part of the game is after you've passed by: Grenade launchers, hunting rifles, throwing spears, That gun, Ratslayer, trail carbines, ammo with modifiers to break through khan armor and more, and had that hard a time you should probably just kill yourself.

Spoiler

(I'm kidding though, not about killing yourself, but about the 12 damage weapon, there is none.)

I just tested it myself, one shot with ratslayer, 6 shots with recharger rifle, 7 rounds left in a 9mm, don't know how many hit but she was dead when I was done firing.
I must be a fucking wizard.

 

[King Arthur]

When discussing video game preferences, all that is necessary is to state whether you liked something or not. Long and unpleasant debates are not worthwhile. The point of chat is to be sociable and to enjoy yourselves.

 

[TheGreatOne]

You're way off if you think Josh or I hate challenge.

And I'm supposed to take your word for it after all this?

Not all difficulty is good though.

We're talking about Wizardry, Nocturne and Dark Souls, not poorly coded C64/NES platformers or obtuse oldschool RPGs&adventure games.

They loved it for the plot twiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiist and the "Haha we do blindly follow the orders of disembodied voices in video games!" and the "This is what objectivism leads to, people!" aspects.

SS2 does that and on top of that has a symbolic conflict between collectivism and individualism, and the whole dual antagonist concept is rare in general.

There was ranged combat in Ultima Underworld so I'd say not. They even name-drop it in SS2's manual.

Underworld is the basis for System Shock but I don't really consider that shooting, you can shoot bows in first person perspective in Thief but it's not a FPS.

Deus Ex shipped a year later, and started development in 1997, so no.

Spector made Invisible War (+Deadly Shadows) and failed twice at making Epic Mickey where as Harvey Smith worked on SS and is a huge Looking Glass fanboy (and also responsible for IW) so it's obvious that Deus Ex was succesful because they had almost a year to copy ideas from SS2 (and The Dark Project) into their game.

Um...?

First person perspective stealth+open ended level design, storytelling

Fallout didn't bomb. Torment didn't bomb.

What happened to that "decent-enough gameplay" part? I was only listing games that had superior gameplay compared to their contemporary competitors (maybe some Q2 fan might disagree about Blood though).
"Planescape: Torment received widespread critical acclaim upon its release,[50] but only made a small profit."

They had enough positive qualities to find enough of an audience to recoup the money spent making them. Games that don't have enough to offer typically don't. SS2 and Bloodlines weren't exactly massive-budget either.

""was not a flop", but that it ultimately "lost money" for the company" - System Shock 1
It looks like Call of Duty, Oblivion and Fallout 3 have a shit ton of positive qualities since they find enough of an audience to recoup the money spent making them and multiply it by 20.
The list of critically (and Codex) acclaimed games that failed commercially and commercially successful games that are utter shit are both so long that I don't see how any sane person could use that argument.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

[Ninjerk]

Ninjerk
Cool, that means you were using the mythical 12 damage weapon and didn't get a single headshot or critical(Or sneak critical). Seeing as that part of the game is after you've passed by: Grenade launchers, hunting rifles, throwing spears, That gun, Ratslayer, trail carbines, ammo with modifiers to break through khan armor and more, and had that hard a time you should probably just kill yourself.

Spoiler

(I'm kidding though, not about killing yourself, but about the 12 damage weapon, there is none.)

I just tested it myself, one shot with ratslayer, 6 shots with recharger rifle, 7 rounds left in a 9mm, don't know how many hit but she was dead when I was done firing.
I must be a fucking wizard.

Must have been hallucinating.

EDIT: On a real tip though, I don't remember exactly how many bullets were on her head after the first one.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

There would have to be exceptional circumstances otherwise, low condition, low skill, missed most shots, etc. Granted that Great Khans are pretty damn tough. But the lore supports that, I really don't mind larger than life npcs having *some* hp and DR buffs if it's supported by the game's dialogue. Khans are talked about as tough and they really are. (4 shots to the head with 10mm pistol)

Personally I think a lot of the imagined hp bloat is actually the armor mechanic, good armor soaks up a lot of the damage so it feels like enemies have more health than they do. Especially when the enemy has no helmet and shooting them in the head is still affected by their DT. But that's what the ammo types are for.

Anyway it's not an issue in Vegas and it would be nice if people didn't resort to that shit. FO3? Sure, the 10mm pistol did 9 damage in that game compared to 22 in Vegas, and the traders do have ridiculously high health, because that's all Beth could come up with I guess. NV fixed that by giving the traders mid tier armor, good weapons, and making them travel in groups. They tend to be able to hold their own even against the legion raids without needing 300 hp.

 

[Akasen]

I must make another thread now and see what sort of conflict happens. But how do I go about it?

 

[Jick Magger]

Never had much of an issue with supposed HP bloat in New Vegas, especially once I wrapped my head around the various types of ammo. Whereas in Fallout 3 post Broken Steel endgame became a chore specifically because Bethesda's idea of difficulty was swarming the Wasteland with Albino Radscorpions which required a small army's worth of ammunition to take down.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I must make another thread now and see what sort of conflict happens. But how do I go about it?

Piss on melee weapons in modern/sci-fi rpgs or something.

 

[Jick Magger]

Say that Fallout 3 is better than New Vegas because MUH ATMOSPHERE

 

[Akasen]

No! I have an idea! This is a thread about VtMB! If I am to eat popcorn after somehow causing a spat, I must revive the biggest piece of drama ever! I must find a way to reunite the German and the "retired" Smut modder!

 

[Ninjerk]

There would have to be exceptional circumstances otherwise, low condition, low skill, missed most shots, etc. Granted that Great Khans are pretty damn tough. But the lore supports that, I really don't mind larger than life npcs having *some* hp and DR buffs if it's supported by the game's dialogue. Khans are talked about as tough and they really are. (4 shots to the head with 10mm pistol)

Personally I think a lot of the imagined hp bloat is actually the armor mechanic, good armor soaks up a lot of the damage so it feels like enemies have more health than they do. Especially when the enemy has no helmet and shooting them in the head is still affected by their DT. But that's what the ammo types are for.

Anyway it's not an issue in Vegas and it would be nice if people didn't resort to that shit. FO3? Sure, the 10mm pistol did 9 damage in that game compared to 22 in Vegas, and the traders do have ridiculously high health, because that's all Beth could come up with I guess. NV fixed that by giving the traders mid tier armor, good weapons, and making them travel in groups. They tend to be able to hold their own even against the legion raids without needing 300 hp.

It just seems very JRPGish. I don't mind JRPGish, but I'd prefer if it was kept "on its own side of the tracks" and out of my Fallout! We need a cantankerous old man smiley.

 

[DeepOcean]

By the way, System Shock 2 bombed. Bloodlines also bombed. Other so-called classics from the same time period did not bomb, and this is because they actually had decent-enough gameplay to offer, unlike those titles.

You are ignoring the context of the time, I remember that Activision just dumped Bloodlines on the market and didn't invest one dollar on Q&A, marketing budget was almost inexistant and it was released along side with fucking Half Life 2. Deus Ex appeared on PC games magazines all the time as the thing that would change the world forever and got some good hype going on. Bloodlines? I only discovered it even existed two years later. What was funny is that Troika ended up on the black and just closed of because Microsoft was on this way to destroy PC gamming and turn it into it's personal playground with Xbone 1, no more space for PC exclusive games after. CoD Blops 2 sold more than 20 million copies, the only thing this proves is that there are more than 20 million retards to exploit.

 

[Roguey]

And I'm supposed to take your word for it after all this?

Going off the critical path in New Vegas: Good challenge.
Extreme chaos, being forced to make blind decisions: Bad challenge.

We're talking about Wizardry...not...obtuse oldschool RPGs

SS2 does that and on top of that has a symbolic conflict between collectivism and individualism, and the whole dual antagonist concept is rare in general.

I think you've lost track of what this was about.

Underworld is the basis for System Shock but I don't really consider that shooting, you can shoot bows in first person perspective in Thief but it's not a FPS.

so it's obvious that Deus Ex was succesful because they had almost a year to copy ideas from SS2 (and The Dark Project) into their game.

Ha, cute, you think they just scrapped everything they had done after two years and copied SS2 even though there's nothing about Deus Ex's systems to suggest such a thing.

It's true that Thief inspired DX but only in the sense that Spector wanted to make a stealth game where combat was also a viable option.

First person perspective stealth+open ended level design, storytelling

Those games predate SS2 is what I'm saying.

What happened to that "decent-enough gameplay" part?

"They had enough positive qualities"

It looks like Call of Duty, Oblivion and Fallout 3 have a shit ton of positive qualities since they find enough of an audience to recoup the money spent making them and multiply it by 20.

Uh huh. Enlightenment comes from understanding why a lot of people like a certain thing even if you don't like it.

The list of critically (and Codex) acclaimed games that failed commercially and commercially successful games that are utter shit are both so long that I don't see how any sane person could use that argument.

For the former, I can't recall any good games that outright-bombed (as opposed to broke-even or made a modest profit) and as for the latter, see above.

 

[Roguey]

You are ignoring the context of the time, I remember that Activision just dumped Bloodlines on the market and didn't invest one dollar on Q&A, marketing budget was almost inexistant

This doesn't make it all that much different from Arcanum and ToEE, and both did better.

and it was released along side with fucking Half Life 2.

I have a difficult time believing that there's that much crossover appeal between a linear fps and a role playing shooter. As Adam Brennecke recently said, different audiences.

What was funny is that Troika ended up on the black and just closed of because Microsoft was on this way to destroy PC gamming and turn it into it's personal playground with Xbone 1, no more space for PC exclusive games after.

Troika closed because no publisher was interested in their post-apocalyptic RPG pitch and the games they were being offered weren't RPGs or anything Tim Cain was interested in playing. Activision was interested in funding a PC-exclusive turn-based Fallout, but Herve was asking for an absurd amount of money for the license.

 

[tuluse]

Activision was interested in funding a PC-exclusive turn-based Fallout, but Herve was asking for an absurd amount of money for the license.

I never read this before. What a shame.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

It looks like Call of Duty, Oblivion and Fallout 3 have a shit ton of positive qualities since they find enough of an audience to recoup the money spent making them and multiply it by 20.

Uh huh. Enlightenment comes from understanding why a lot of people like a certain thing even if you don't like it.

Indeed, the measure of quality is sales and mass market appeal. In light of that we can conclude that Pillars of Eternity is gonna be an utterly shitty game/vastly inferior product compared to the newest Call of Duty, Ass Creed and some old classics like Oblivion, Fallout 3, Halo and Gears of War.

Let's also hope Witcher 3 doesn't outsell poor POE, otherwise we'd have to conclude that Poles with their cargo cult approach are just plain better than Josh, the final numbers will be telling (boob physics eye candy=enlightenment).



P.S. We can also conclude that Josh's taste in movies is utter shit as he consider a movie that has been a great commercial and critical success (The Dark Knight) to be not good, afterall, majority is always right.

 

[Lhynn]

It looks like Call of Duty, Oblivion and Fallout 3 have a shit ton of positive qualities since they find enough of an audience to recoup the money spent making them and multiply it by 20.

Uh huh. Enlightenment comes from understanding why a lot of people like a certain thing even if you don't like it.

Indeed, the measure of quality is sales and mass market appeal. In light of that we can conclude that Pillars of Eternity is gonna be an utterly shitty game/vastly inferior product compared to the newest Call of Duty, Ass Creed and some old classics like Oblivion, Fallout 3, Halo and Gears of War.

Let's also hope Witcher 3 doesn't outsell poor POE, otherwise we'd have to conclude that Poles with their cargo cult approach are just plain better than Josh, the final numbers will be telling (boob physics eye candy=enlightenment).



P.S. We can also conclude that Josh's taste in movies is utter shit as he consider a movie that has been a great commercial and critical success (The Dark Knight) to be not good, afterall, majority is always right.

I think what Roguey means is that in that sea of shit those games/movies have redeemable qualities that make the masses like them. Qualities that are probably lacking in stuff we know is better.

 

[aleph]

Thought this thread was about Bloodlines, found pages of inane discussion about Fallout NV. Fuck you Roguey, you derailed yet another thread.

 

[Irenaeus]

ITT Roguey hijacks another thread with his inanities

Hello.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Going off the critical path in New Vegas: Good challenge.

Also uninteresting.

Extreme chaos, being forced to make blind decisions: Bad challenge.

So I take that JES school of game design demands that all have RPGs should have the ability to respec, or that no matter how you allocate your stats/experience points, you should still have a viable build.
I'm all for transparent design (like Fire Emblem on 3DS showing the mathematical formulas of each spell), but the fact is that most RPG and strategy games have metagaming. RPGs should be open about how their systems work and what you get for investing a point into an ability, but
I guess they're afraid of scaring players with scary numbers or something.

None of those games have bad challenge.

We're talking about Wizardry...not...obtuse oldschool RPGs

I meant 6-8, not 4.

I think you've lost track of what this was about..

Nah. If morons think that Bioshock is "GAMES R ART", then SS2 is even more artistic than Bioshock, at least from a narrative point of view.

UW: Wikipedia classifies it as: First-person action RPG, dungeon crawler. Thief: Stealth. They're not first person shooters.

Ha, cute, you think they just scrapped everything they had done after two years and copied SS2 even though there's nothing about Deus Ex's systems to suggest such a thing.

Except that it was made by Looking Glass fanboys.

"They had enough positive qualities"

So did System Shock 2. And VTMB. Most people on this forum who aren't combat purists will agree with that. That's why VTMB was in the TOP 10 two times in a row in the top RPG poll. You're in the XTREME minority if you think that SS2 and VTMB deserved to sell poorly but it's allright that Dragon Age 2 makes millions.

Enlightenment comes from understanding why a lot of people like a certain thing even if you don't like it.

Like why most PC gamers prefer Deus Ex and System Shock 2 to New Vegas.

For the former, I can't recall any good games that outright-bombed (as opposed to broke-even or made a modest profit) and as for the latter, see above.

Toonstruck, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Snatcher, The Last Express, Ogre Battle (SNES), Metal Storm, The Neverhood, Gimmick. IIRC: MUSHA, Mega Man 7 (PAL/NTSC-U), Agony. I'm sure there are a lot more of those.
And the list of games that have a cult following and were critically acclaimed but sold poorly is a lot longer. Planescape: Torment, Rez, Ico, Okami, Beyond Good and Evil, Door to Phantomile, System Shock 1, SOTN, Grim Fandango, Jojos bizarre Adventure, Outcast, Earthbound, Tomba and Mischief Makers off the top of my head.
Of course not all of them have top tier gameplay, but some have garnered a cult following for other reasons, like Grim Fandango.

Thought this thread was about Bloodlines, found pages of inane discussion about Fallout NV. Fuck you Roguey, you derailed yet another thread.

Please drop kick his ass back to Obsidian forums, Chie-san

 

[aleph]

TheGreatOne, I was a bit unfair, you deserve as much blame for derailing this thread as roguey does. Is it really that hard to start a new thread if you want to 'sperg about FNV and stuff?

 

[TheGreatOne]

Nah, I'm defending the honor of the fair blonde maiden VTMB from the foreign dark rapist that is JES cult