So Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines will be a decade old this year. LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RPG'S

[dryan]

1. Nosferatu

The most important thing to know when playing a Nosferatu is that you don't really have to stick to the sewers. Just don't run close to the people and you won't break the masquerade that way (if that's not larpy enough for you - rush obfuscate and run around in it).

Of course, the whole concept of you being disadvantaged that way is superb, but great concepts are one thing and having to run double the time whenever you want to do something (especially when you already have to run a lot in this game) is entirely another.

Yeah but it's fun to larp, also, you get to live there and hang erotic posters on your sewer walls. That's the best.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

All clans are powerful but Ventrue is easy mode almost. You're gonna feel like a terminator after maxing fortitude and trance (first ability from dominate discipline) is absolutely golden when it comes to boss fights (always stuns them), feeding (no longer need to wait for one civilan to be completely alone, you can use trance on one and then safely feed on the other) and stealth.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Maybe if the characters could wear hoodies and hats and what not instead of BDSM clothes you wouldn't need to hide so much. WTF was Troika thinking

Playing a deformed character that looks like a regular shy guy is kind of pointless.

 

[Excidium]

Maybe if the characters could wear hoodies and hats and what not instead of BDSM clothes you wouldn't need to hide so much. WTF was Troika thinking

Playing a deformed character that looks like a regular shy guy is kind of pointless.

Whatever, it wouldn't be completely retarded

 

[dryan]

Maybe if the characters could wear hoodies and hats and what not instead of BDSM clothes you wouldn't need to hide so much. WTF was Troika thinking

Playing a deformed character that looks like a regular shy guy is kind of pointless.

Yeah, I have real life already.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Eh. If you walk around in a burqa characters who don't know about vampires will treat you like a normal person, and characters who know about vampires don't care about your looks to begin with. Might as well be playing as a handsome toreador.

 

[Irenaeus]

WoW was always shit. When I saw the first cartoonish screenshots in previews, I completely turned it off from my life and never regretted it. I used to love Warcraft.

 

[Excidium]

Eh. If you walk around in a burqa characters who don't know about vampires will treat you like a normal person, and characters who know about vampires don't care about your looks to begin with. Might as well be playing as a handsome toreador.

Do it right or don't do it

 

[adddeed]

That, and the goddamn hiking. In fact, personally I would consider traveling across boring brown area after boring brown area a far greater flaw than the fighting itself.
.

Thats true. Semi open world (can be hub based - Deus Ex) with dense content and minimal time spent commuting and exploration which is rewarded > open world with copy pasted filler content to bloat the game and where half your play time was spent walking (Fallout 3, Skyrim, GTA clones etc).

 

[Ninjerk]

Eh. If you walk around in a burqa characters who don't know about vampires will treat you like a normal person, and characters who know about vampires don't care about your looks to begin with. Might as well be playing as a handsome toreador.

Nosferatu are supposed to smell bad chronically as well, I think.

 

[Roguey]

I found loading times to be longer in New Vegas than other games that use the door opening trick.

How weird. For me it's lightning quick.

Every bullet should cause a brief stun, no reaction to being hit is one of the worst feelings in an FPS game. Gamebryo can't handle all of those, so it only happens on crits.

I'm pretty sure it could, they just choose not to. Much like how PoE chooses not to have an interrupt on every attack. It's definitely something that looks off, but I dunno what the solution is considering torso and other limb crippling has to be present and mean something.

Fast travel could have random encounters like RPGs have had since the beginning of time, and again load times felt much longer in New Vegas than other games (not all mind you, just some).

Random encounters in areas you've already cleared are a big waste of time imo. If you want to meet enemies, travel the slow way.

 

[Excidium]

Loading times in FNV increase the longer you play

 

[Ninjerk]

Loading times in FNV increase the longer you play

Giving you plenty of time to think about the perfection that is Sawyer-balance. :Roguey:

 

[TheGreatOne]

Must have missed that "These two RPGs have nigh-perfect design" from any of those sources.

Probably because Jaesede and Felipepe didn't write the articles. Here's however what Jasede and felipepepe had to say about them. felipepepe inadvertently said something about New Vegas/Twitcher/Alpha Protocol too

Spoiler

Jasede:
Dark Souls is a rare gem in that it manages to be good at everything. Most RPGs merely excel in some distinct areas, such as character building, writing or other discrete aspects. Rarely does a game come along that executes everything it attempts, and does so with remarkable grace. Dark Souls is a study in melancholy and depression, plunging us into a world that is bleak and hopeless without the usual overly emotional or even pathos-laden trappings that often accompany these themes. This game is dark and straight to the point. It knows exactly what it wants to express, and every detail of the game - every line of text, every voice actor, every combat animation, every placed enemy, every area, every weapon - works towards realizing the idea it wanted to convey.

In Dark Souls all categories that make a game find themselves refined to a sharp point. I understand you might have reservations about trying an RPG (the genre status which is subject to much debate) that was first released on a console. However, if you've ever thought I've shown any semi-reliable taste at all you will simply have to take my word for it: Dark Souls ranks among the finest games ever created and is a much-needed reminder that not all modern games compromise integrity for the sake of broadening market appeal. If you ever needed a reminder that video games are not yet dead, this is it.

felipepepe: Dark Souls is a marvel of its time, a game that reminds us that we shouldn’t be satisfied with well-produced mediocrity and "good-for-what-it-is" games. It’s challenging, mature, deep, polished, and above all, a game that respects the player. There’s no hand-holding here, you learn the ropes by playing, and the game tests you at every step, frequently killing you. The challenges are finely tuned, appearing almost impossible at first but being in fact perfectly fair and doable, and a source of great satisfaction once overcome.

The fantastic combat takes the center piece here, being easily the best you’ll find in any action RPG. It requires tactics, demands attention and rewards patience like no other; all the while providing you with a vast array of weapons and armor plus a diverse set of enemies to put those to test, as well as expertly designed levels. Another of the game's high points, the melancholic story, is masterfully told through subtle details in the scenery, hints in the item descriptions and concise, well-written lines from a cast of memorable NPCs, never relying on long expositions or lazy "lore books" written by wannabe-writers.

From Software raised the bar with Dark Souls; it may not be the best game ever, but it’s a game that excels in absolutely everything it does.

Jasede: When Felipepepe writes that this game is not a breakthrough in gaming he could not be more wrong. This is basically what console gaming is all about: challenge, tight controls, breath-taking visuals, flawless sound-design. Unlike many of its peers, every part of this game is flawless. If you changed anything it would be a different experience. This game is what owning a console is all about. It is the Planescape: Torment, the Arcanum and the Fallout of console gaming.

Felipepepe: Probably the most Codexian-friendly JRPG on the list. Forget lighthearted teenage adventures; as soon as the game starts, the world is destroyed, and you’re turned into a demon that must fight, recruit, bribe or seduce other demons to shape a new world. The game has very challenging turn-based combat, over 100 recruitable demons for your party (including Dante from Devil May Cry), great dungeon design, and several endings depending on the paths you choose to follow, that are way more mature and diverse that binary good & evil choices.

Damned Registrations: Probably the best turn based console game to come out in the last decade. The combat system isn't terribly complex, but it's elegant and has a lot of interactions and ways to take advantage of it's simple elements. A lot of the battles offer some decent difficulty, and players smart enough will be rewarded by being able to get past fights without needing to step back and change things to handle individual bosses or enemies. Unfortunately, the game suffers outside of combat. There is no equipment to be had, so it's rare that you feel rewarded by going out of your way to explore - usually you just get some money or consumable items. The plot is pretty minimalistic and nonsensical. That said, at least it's original. No farmer turned hero watching his village burned by the evil empire shit to be found here.

Jasede: It might be because I'm such a sucker for desolate worlds and being depressed, but this game hits many of the right notes from the very start: the world ends, you're thrown into a empty land with no clear idea what to do, and it just goes from there. The story is minimalist and does not get in your way as you explore your way through many different - albeit sometimes bland - dungeons. Fortunately, the combat and party systems are outstanding and the high - if not extreme - difficulty should keep you entertained for hours on end.

Average Manatee: An innovative turn-based combat and ally-creation system that let's you form and mold your undoubtably unique party from the (very cool) enemies you face. Beautiful environments to explore with tricks and traps littered about. And a punishing difficulty that is not in the least bit overrated. Surviving the end of the world is the tutorial. Surviving the birth of the new one is the game.

Clockwork Knight: Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne AKA Pokemon: Mayan Edition. Recruit bros to help you achieve your objectives in a ruined world. The combat system is based on gaining more turns for doing good and losing turns for messing up. This means that things can go south FAST, and every battle has the potential to wipe you out if aren't ready to counter the skills of the enemies in that area. The gameworld is barebones, with shops scattered through the dungeons. You are rarely in a "safe place" where you can talk to locals, but it fits the game's tone.

No one said that SMT 3 excels at everything, but they're designed the same way and most of the positive things that can be said about SMT 3 apply to Demon/Dark Souls and vice versa, though naturally there are technical differences (more linear and less trap filled maze type dungeon design but more open-ended world design in DS, online play, ability to glitch bosses and exploit AI behavior in real time combat which you cant do in TB, in DS gameplay is based on how you allocate stats and what equipment you use where as in Nocturne it's defined by your party composition and Magatama, stat allocation isn't as crucial for your short term plans but long term planning is required due to skill slots).

Neither of those games has any of the sort of problems or shortcomings you'll find from most silverage CRPGs or games by Obsidian. I'd argue that SS2, just like Thief II, also reaches that level where gameplay, mechanics, story, level design, art design&atmosphere and everything else reaches that level where it can be called a masterpiece as long as you keep in mind that it's sort of a survival horror game. But the combat isn't quite good enough due to technical limitations of the time.

Maybe if the characters could wear hoodies and hats and what not instead of BDSM clothes you wouldn't need to hide so much. WTF was Troika thinking

The playerbase. Remember how people dressed in those 90s and early 2000s cyberpunk games, movies and comics? It seemed like there was some overlap with that and the modern day vampire thing. Trench coats, dual wielding katanas and sunglasses and all that, like the Blade movies.

As retarded as those clothes are, they still make a lot more sense than this.

Final boss who can't even hit you while you backpedal and keep shooting him with some low level handgun because he decides to wield a sword. In a world where every one has firearms. Wow, such great design. Especially in the desert. At least a melee weapon could potentially work in an urban CQB situation.

Thats true. Semi open world (can be hub based - Deus Ex) with dense content and minimal time spent commuting and exploration which is rewarded > open world with copy pasted filler content to bloat the game and where half your play time was spent walking (Fallout 3, Skyrim, GTA clones etc).

But level design is hard and takes effort

 

[Roguey]

Loading times in FNV increase the longer you play

Still less than a second or a few seconds at most for me. I guess hard drive speed is everything?

No one said that SMT 3 excels at everything, but they're designed the same way and most of the positive things that can be said about SMT 3 apply to Demon/Dark Souls and vice versa, though naturally there are technical differences (more linear and less trap filled maze type dungeon design but more open-ended world design in DS, online play, ability to glitch bosses and exploit AI behavior in real time combat which you cant do in TB, in DS gameplay is based on how you allocate stats and what equipment you use where as in Nocturne it's defined by your party composition and Magatama, stat allocation isn't as crucial for your short term plans but long term planning is required due to skill slots).

I'm pretty sure I could find problems if I was willing to play them; however, I am not.

Dark Souls is Josh-approved though.

I'd argue that SS2, just like Thief II, also reaches that level where gameplay, mechanics, story, level design, art design&atmosphere and everything else reaches that level where it can be called a masterpiece as long as you keep in mind that it's sort of a survival horror game. But the combat isn't quite good enough due to technical limitations of the time.

Pffffffffffffffffffffthahahahaha

Luckily, we did our homework for Shock and focused very hard on coming up with a design that leveraged the capacities of the engine, while not trying to pursue unobtainable goals (making a Quake or Unreal clone). Our design work paid off because we work with the strengths of the engine (AI, complex object interactions, scripting) and not against them.

Noticeably absent from list of strengths: Combat. Technical limitations. I've been told that even SS has better-feeling combat than SS2 but I'd have to try to find out.

 

[Excidium]

Loading times in FNV increase the longer you play

Still less than a second or a few seconds at most for me. I guess hard drive speed is everything?

Not when it's slower than everything else on the same HDD

 

[Roguey]

Not when it's slower than everything else on the same HDD

I just tested an endgame save and load times varied from 2-7 seconds which seems reasonable to me.

 

[Excidium]

Well that's fucking odd. I hope that means whatever it had was patched because I just bought it this sale

 

[TheGreatOne]

I'm pretty sure I could find problems if I was willing to play them; however, I am not.

Yes, you've established the fact that you're a casual gamer well enough already. However this isn't the Escapist forums. Not being able play, let alone beat, games that aren't dumbed down and made "accessible" (and "balanced") for masses isn't something to say out loud and be proud about. Ever wondered what that word "decline" means that every one keeps repeating all the time?

Noticeably absent from list of strengths: Combat. Technical limitations.

Have you ever even played System Shock 2? More than 10 minutes? Did you get far enough to fight actual enemies? When you look at those enemies, how they move, how they've been animated, how your guns handles, what kind of feedback you get from hitting your enemies, how you can move and so on, it's clear that engine the game runs on limits its potential. The combat could be better. Even as it is, SS2 is one of the most important, influental and well designed 3D games of the late 1990s and disliking it makes you a fag.

 

[Roguey]

Yes, you've established the fact that you're a casual gamer well enough already. However this isn't the Escapist. Not being able play, let alone beat, games that aren't dumbed down and made "accessible" and "balanced" for masses isn't something to say out loud and be proud about. Ever wondered what that word "decline" means that every one keeps repeating all the time?

There's that word again.

I've played and completed many of your late-90s so-called classics and found them wanting in many areas. I've also played and completed some of the early-90s so-called classics and came to similar conclusions.

Have you ever even played System Shock 2? More than 10 minutes? Did you get far enough to fight actual enemies? When you look at those enemies, how they move, how they've been animated, how your guns handles, what kind of feedback you get from hitting your enemies, how you can move and so on, it's clear that engine the game runs on limits its potential.

Uh huh. They could have made the game on a better engine, like how Ion Storm Austin chose Unreal for Deus Ex.

And yes, I completed System Shock 2. Like a few weeks ago even. I talked about how much it sucked here http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...o-far-not-impressed.82886/page-9#post-3329215

Even as it is, SS2 is one of the most important, influental and well designed 3D games of the late 1990s disliking it makes you a fag.

To quote SS2-guy: Nah. When it comes to lazy-storytelling like audio logs everywhere or a cool antagonist who makes fun of you periodically, SS already did it. It has well-designed levels on the Von Braun and that's it.

By the way, System Shock 2 bombed. Bloodlines also bombed. Other so-called classics from the same time period did not bomb, and this is because they actually had decent-enough gameplay to offer, unlike those titles.

 

[Tigranes]

Confession: I tried really hard to play VTMB when it first came out, but shitty optimisation + shitty computer = literally 4fps. The combat was almost impossible, things were very ugly, and the pace perhaps as part of that was pretty plodding. Gave up after exploring for a few hours.

I suppose I'll go back to it at some point, but I think what always put me off was that apart from the writing there was nothing that seemed really great, and I didn't see enough of the writing yet to hook me in.

 

[DeepOcean]

At least it isn't VTMB's interpretation of Malkavians

Which was awesome.

I haven't played Malk yet. Probably be my 2nd playthrough, but damn am I excited.

Don't be so much, the crazyness of the Malkavians don't come much to really change the gameplay on any meaningful way outside of a really rare, amusing and really short situations. There are a few reactions from NPCs to the fact of you being a Malkavian but really superficial stuff. The dialogue you talk is different but it isn't so amazing that justify a second playthrough to see it. I played with a Malk and from the entire game there are only three really short situations that are kinda memorable but they weren't so amusing that justified killing trash mobs with a third rate Nosferatu/ third rate Ventrue just to see them.

 

[TheGreatOne]

There's that word again.

You're like a guy in a wheelchair who is shocked to find out that people classify him as a cripple because he can't get up a set of stairs with out the help of others.

I've played and completed many of your late-90s so-called classics and found them wanting in many areas. I've also played and completed some of the early-90s so-called classics and came to similar conclusions.

So your gimmick is being the guy who hates challenge in video games and buries old classics on a forum that is almost dedicated to praising old classics and burying modern pussified games. Like I concluded earlier, you're an enemy of the CRPG genre.
Also: I never said that all 90s classics are flawless. Just that there aren't major design flaws in Nocturne and Dark Souls as they get everything right from story (+C&C), atmosphere and art direction to mechanics, gameplay, difficulty, level and encounter design where as something like Arcanum, Morrowind, New Vegas or VTMB is flawed despite the fact that they might do some things really well and even be brilliant at times.

They could have made the game on a better engine, like how Obsidian chose Gamebryo for New Vegas.

Because game developers have limitless budgets, manpower etc. Especially ones who make niche games that don't sell very well.

To quote SS2-guy: Nah. When it comes to lazy-storytelling like audio logs everywhere or a cool antagonist who makes fun of you periodically, SS already did it. It has well-designed levels on the Von Braun and that's it.

Never mind the ideological battle between the two different antagonists and the storyline which was ripped to Bioshock where it was considered to be so good that less intelligent/educated gamers regard it as one of the best examples of the artistic merits of the medium.
On top of that it was the first game to properly combine FPS with RPG, at least that I know of (*). Created the basis for Deus Ex along with Thief (and maybe Half Life) and on top of that influenced Doom 3 (the biggest FPS series of the time completely changed its design philosophy just to rip it off) and Dead Space (and to lesser extent many other games).
*=There's strife but I've never got around of playing it so if it has as much depth in its RPG systems as SS2 and firearms then correct me if I'm wrong.

By the way, System Shock 2 bombed. Bloodlines also bombed. Other so-called classics from the same time period did not bomb, and this is because they actually had decent-enough gameplay to offer, unlike those titles.

You're using sales figures as an argument. On RPGcodex?

Stating that a game didn't sell well because it lacked good gameplay is retarded because it doesn't apply to RPGs nor other genres, back then nor now (though it's more common these days). Plenty of examples from that era (+- 3 years). ToEE, JA2, Wiz8 vs Diablo 2 and Morrowind. Shin Megami Tensei&Tactics Ogre vs Final Fantasy, Grandia and other popular JRPGs at the time. Toonstruck vs Phantasmagoria. Klonoa: Door to Phantomile and even Castlevania: Symphony of the Night vs sluggish 3D platformers. Blood vs Quake 2/Metal Slug vs Turok (can't think of a poor 2D/needlesly 2.5D run n gun from that time, the PS1 contra games were bad but they didn't sell very well either). Mortal Kombat (+Rise of the robots) and later on Tekken/Soul Calibur vs all the innovative and much deeper and better looking fighters on Neo Geo/Saturn/Dreamcast. Outcast and Beyond good and evil vs most 3D action adventure games. I think there were couple of bad polygon shmups on the PS1 that sold better than games by Cave, Treasure and Raizing. Almost anything 2D back when 3D was all the rage. In fact you could argue contrary to what I stated earlier and say that back then it was easier for well designed games with good gameplay to get lost in the shuffle because consumers were so enamored with 3D. Or at least marketing people and publishers kept showing it down peoples throats and people kept buying it.

 

[Ninjerk]

There's that word again.

You're like a guy in a wheelchair who is shocked to find out that people classify him as a cripple because he can't get up a set of stairs with out the help of others.

Ableist scum.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

• Loading screens aren't an issue for me when I play New Vegas, stop playing on 360.
  
  
• Enemies in NV don't take tons of headshots to kill, and FO3 videos don't somehow prove that they do. Every weapon from FO3 to NV has had it's damage doubled, and your average NCR trooper has 50 hp, 44 damage for headshot with 10mm, two headshots max, with no crits and no skills/perks. If it was any easier than that then ammo types, high tier weapons and perks/skills would be pretty pointless.

• Spoiler

  
  Don't use this argument, ever.