Vapourware RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

[LarryTyphoid]

Ultima 4. Game has absolutely no fat; it's all thriller, no filler. Crafts a striking and evocative adventure using dirt old technology and graphics straight out of the Atari 2600. Its only serious problem is the controls in combat when your party gets too big, but that's fixed by the xu4 sourceport. The soundtrack is incredible too. When Ultima 4 came out it was quite definitely the greatest game ever made. The next greatest game was maybe Ultima Underworld, and System Shock after that.

For a time I thought I only liked U4 so much because it was the first real retro CRPG I ever got into, with notetaking and manual reading and all that, but I replayed it a few months ago and it was still kino. The virtue stuff is overrated, though. People say that you have to let enemies run away lest you lose points in Compassion, but that's not true; if an enemy is classified as evil you can kill them no matter how much they run or beg for mercy, because that is Justice

 

[LudensCogitet]

Ultima 4. Game has absolutely no fat; it's all thriller, no filler. Crafts a striking and evocative adventure using dirt old technology and graphics straight out of the Atari 2600. Its only serious problem is the controls in combat when your party gets too big, but that's fixed by the xu4 sourceport. The soundtrack is incredible too. When Ultima 4 came out it was quite definitely the greatest game ever made. The next greatest game was maybe Ultima Underworld, and System Shock after that.

For a time I thought I only liked U4 so much because it was the first real retro CRPG I ever got into, with notetaking and manual reading and all that, but I replayed it a few months ago and it was still kino. The virtue stuff is overrated, though. People say that you have to let enemies run away lest you lose points in Compassion, but that's not true; if an enemy is classified as evil you can kill them no matter how much they run or beg for mercy, because that is Justice

Ultima 4 combat is deadly dull, and there is a bunch of it. It's just the same thing over and over and over again with tedious movement, barely any strategy, and ever increasing numbers of enemies.
I enjoyed the rest of the game so much I have actually searched multiple times for some kind of mod or hack to remove or tone down combat. The tedium of the battles is what stopped me from playing the game.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Ultima 4 combat is deadly dull, and there is a bunch of it. It's just the same thing over and over and over again with tedious movement, barely any strategy, and ever increasing numbers of enemies.
I enjoyed the rest of the game so much I have actually searched multiple times for some kind of mod or hack to remove or tone down combat. The tedium of the battles is what stopped me from playing the game.

There are ways to tone down the amount of combat in U4. On the DOS version, at least, you can press the "V" key to turn off in-game sound effects; this also skips combat animations. You can also avoid random encounters on the overworld with a horse; pressing "Y" on a horse will make your character yell "Giddyup!" making the horse move two spaces at once, allowing you to easily outmaneuver enemies. Go play U4 again and try these out, and you'll find that your problems with the combat fade away. It's also a good idea to stock up on reagents early to get spells that can wipe out large crowds of bothersome enemies like daemons and balrogs, and the Negate magic spell for reapers and balrogs. You can get the MP to fuel these spells earlier by going to dungeons with orbs of intelligence (Deceit, Shame, and Hythloth), as long as whatever character you're leveling up can survive the damage. The Change Wind spell can also help you avoid unwanted combat encounters at sea.

 

[Serus]

Ultima 4 combat is deadly dull, and there is a bunch of it. It's just the same thing over and over and over again with tedious movement, barely any strategy, and ever increasing numbers of enemies.
I enjoyed the rest of the game so much I have actually searched multiple times for some kind of mod or hack to remove or tone down combat. The tedium of the battles is what stopped me from playing the game.

There are ways to tone down the amount of combat in U4. On the DOS version, at least, you can press the "V" key to turn off in-game sound effects; this also skips combat animations. You can also avoid random encounters on the overworld with a horse; pressing "Y" on a horse will make your character yell "Giddyup!" making the horse move two spaces at once, allowing you to easily outmaneuver enemies. Go play U4 again and try these out, and you'll find that your problems with the combat fade away. It's also a good idea to stock up on reagents early to get spells that can wipe out large crowds of bothersome enemies like daemons and balrogs, and the Negate magic spell for reapers and balrogs. You can get the MP to fuel these spells earlier by going to dungeons with orbs of intelligence (Deceit, Shame, and Hythloth), as long as whatever character you're leveling up can survive the damage. The Change Wind spell can also help you avoid unwanted combat encounters at sea.

However there is one problem in your logic. You said it yourself, that U4 "has no filler". What you described here is a way to remove or mitigate filler. If you have to do that, it means that the filler exists. All you are doing is making it less annoying and time consuming.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

However there is one problem in your logic. You said it yourself, that U4 "has no filler". What you described here ia way to remove or mitigate filler. If you have to do that, it means that the filler exists, you can only make it somewhat less annoying or time consuming as you described.

It's necessary filler, filler that gives the necessary weight to the exploration. Seeking to avoid combat, or to end combat faster with magic, requires you to be more thoughtful in how you explore and how you manage your resources of gold, food, and reagents. With that in mind I wouldn't call it filler at all. When this "filler" is taken away, you are left with a much less satisfying sense of exploration, which was the error of the Ultima games from U6 onwards, which became more like adventure games than RPGs.

 

[Terenty]

Might and Magic 6 should definitely be among them. The atmosphere in the game is out of this world

 

[Serus]

I don't think there's been an RPG masterpiece. The best RPGs are great in spite of obvious problems.

I said the same thing in this thread earlier. CRPG don't (or can't?) have masterpieces.
CRPG that comes closest for me is Jagged Alliance 2 but even JA2 is not a masterpiece but "only" a 9/10 game. Granted there are subgenres of CRPG that i never liked (real time blobbers or action-CRPG...) maybe there are some masterpieces there - but not for me. In other computer games genres I can think of some true masterpieces. Great games that are at the same time almost perfect. Like the first "Secret of Monkey Island" in point and click adventure (sub)genre. But in CRPG? They all seem to fail at one point or another. They are "flawed masterpieces", at best but never truly 10/10 games. Is it because CRPG genre is actually one of the most complex? Maybe also because it often wants to become what it can't never truly be* to a satisfactory level - a computer single person version of p&p RPG.

*Unless the AI can help.

 

[razvedchiki]

elex.
risen 1.

 

[Desiderius]

Atari Adventure
Pool of Radiance
Death Knights of Krynn
Wing Commander: Privateer
Civ Series
Ultima 4/5/6
Eye of The Beholder 1/2
Might and Magic 6/7
Ultima Underworld
Wizardry 7/8
Wizards and Warriors
Heroes of Might and Magic III/IV/V
Baldur's Gate 1/2
Icewind Dale 1/2
Diablo 1/2
Kotor
Exile games
Skyrim/Witcher3
Pathfinder 1/2
Knights of the Chalice 2

All games I still remember buying with a great sense of anticipation and playing the hell out of. Seems like a decent enough standard for a masterpiece.

A Golden Age in retrospect

 

[Tweed]

it's all thriller, no filler.

I didn't know scavenger hunts could be so thrilling.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I said the same thing in this thread earlier. CRPG don't (or can't?) have masterpieces.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

I didn't know scavenger hunts could be so thrilling.

Lots of great literature features the heroes travelling the earth in search of artifacts and other treasure. It's a hallmark of the adventure genre. The "scavenger hunt" structure is what allows Ultima 4 to be one of the most non-linear games ever, while still having a real sense of progress and not devolving into a directionless sandbox. When I finally gathered the bell, book, and candle, and was sailing my way towards the Abyss to finally complete the quest I had been undergoing for months of gameplay, it was a sensation of excitement very few games have been able to recreate.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

The virtue stuff is overrated, though. People say that you have to let enemies run away lest you lose points in Compassion, but that's not true; if an enemy is classified as evil you can kill them no matter how much they run or beg for mercy, because that is Justice

You mean underrated. By obscuring how the karma system works, Ultima IV made players afraid of imaginary rules, thus encouraging them to actually role-play as heroes instead of merely min-maxing the virtue system. This technically unimpressive game actually suggested its players that it was tracking all their actions, and made them believe there was a virtual Game Master (or God) judging them at all times.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

You mean underrated. By obscuring how the karma system works, Ultima IV made players afraid of imaginary rules, thus encouraging them to actually role-play as heroes instead of merely min-maxing the virtue system. This technically unimpressive game actually suggested its players that it was tracking all their actions, and made them believe there was a virtual Game Master (or God) judging them at all times.

That's a good point. U4 somehow made people believe it was somewhat more advanced than it actually was, just through some clever design choices.

 

[The_Mask]

If Lilura were here, she'd iggy bin half of you, and trash talk the other half. And then teach you about JA 2.

The previous sentence was written in her (?) memory.

 

[Tweed]

I didn't know scavenger hunts could be so thrilling.

Lots of great literature features the heroes travelling the earth in search of artifacts and other treasure. It's a hallmark of the adventure genre. The "scavenger hunt" structure is what allows Ultima 4 to be one of the most non-linear games ever, while still having a real sense of progress and not devolving into a directionless sandbox. When I finally gathered the bell, book, and candle, and was sailing my way towards the Abyss to finally complete the quest I had been undergoing for months of gameplay, it was a sensation of excitement very few games have been able to recreate.

The heroes usually have to track down a few things like the parts of a broken sword or a ring while undergoing a hero's journey that makes them a better person before its over. Ultima IV wants you to find 34 different pieces of shit and the hero's journey is a seemingly arbitrary mathematician. Ultima V is the better game.

EDIT: If you love that kind of busywork you should play The Magic Candle if you haven't.

 

[Sykar]

Atari Adventure
Pool of Radiance
Death Knights of Krynn
Wing Commander: Privateer
Civ Series
Ultima 4/5/6
Eye of The Beholder 1/2
Might and Magic 6/7
Ultima Underworld
Wizardry 7/8
Wizards and Warriors
Heroes of Might and Magic III/IV/V
Baldur's Gate 1/2
Icewind Dale 1/2
Diablo 1/2
Kotor
Exile games
Skyrim/Witcher3
Pathfinder 1/2
Knights of the Chalice 2

All games I still remember buying with a great sense of anticipation and playing the hell out of. Seems like a decent enough standard for a masterpiece.

A Golden Age in retrospect

 

[Desiderius]

Atari Adventure
Pool of Radiance
Death Knights of Krynn
Wing Commander: Privateer
Civ Series
Ultima 4/5/6
Eye of The Beholder 1/2
Might and Magic 6/7
Ultima Underworld
Wizardry 7/8
Wizards and Warriors
Heroes of Might and Magic III/IV/V
Baldur's Gate 1/2
Icewind Dale 1/2
Diablo 1/2
Kotor
Exile games
Skyrim/Witcher3
Pathfinder 1/2
Knights of the Chalice 2

All games I still remember buying with a great sense of anticipation and playing the hell out of. Seems like a decent enough standard for a masterpiece.

A Golden Age in retrospect

This is what happens when autism superpowers are painstakingly employed over years of grueling effort to forge…. a normie.

My son will have a better sense of his opportunities and limitations.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

This is what happens when autism superpowers are painstakingly employed over years of grueling effort to forge…. a normie.

Which reads more like a failure of those autism superpowers than anything else.

 

[Desiderius]

This is what happens when autism superpowers are painstakingly employed over years of grueling effort to forge…. a normie.

Which reads more like a failure of those autism superpowers than anything else.

Dude, that gulf is *wide*. The powers didn’t fail. In some sense I did. We didn't appreciate what we were, but now I don't think there's enough appreciation of what normies are. Tortoise wins the race.

Balance needs to be brought back to the force.

And like that tortoise belatedly having and raising these sons feels like winning the race out of nowhere in any event.

 

[Artyoan]

Might and Magic 6 should definitely be among them. The atmosphere in the game is out of this world

I put it alongside Morrowind as masterpieces that nevertheless have incredibly broken systems. Both have very interesting worlds to explore, the best starting locations ever made in all of gaming, and not only does progression maximize player growth (from pathetic to godlike) but substantially changes the way the game is played. You go from trying to arrow down dispersed goblins/journeyman to flying through the air nuking things. Beacon warps, water walking, flight, etc. Things that provide utility to change what the player thought was going to be possible.

MM6 has a mystique about it that is timeless and I still don't think I quite capture why its world is so amazing. The imagination never stops toying with it even when I know the limits.

 

[Terenty]

MM6 has a mystique about it that is timeless and I still don't think I quite capture why its world is so amazing.

The art style, music(Paul Romero is a genius), sound design(everything from selling stuff to the enemies' grunts), writing that doesn't overwhelm, exploration with great itemisation, etc. make it a joy to experience

 

[Feargus Jewhart]

GoldenFall 2

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

i will answer why nobody is going to show this challenge run for me.

>because this is not possible.

Bioware was always good in their encounter design and they make sure to add enemies with different resistances, using force fields, capable of petrifying, etc.. so regardless of how do you think the game is easy or not, you HAVE to use your abilities, skills, weapons and items in a thoughtful way to suceed.

while yes, Kotor 1 is easier than BG, its combat encounter and system is well made and regardless of being easier, what matters is Consistency which this game has all the way throught.

No way you are serious. All of the Kotor, (with the sole exception of the final fight with Malak) is about using the one attack your put the most feat points in over and over. You use force powers or other attacks just to shorten the encounter or to relive the boredom. If you want to sell the first Kotor, do it based on the fact that it is well realised vanillia Star Wars. Any other way will fail.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

BG1 and 2's encounter design benefited from the fact that the work had already been done for them. They just had to put this or that thing in this and that place, and that's all. The meat that makes encounters and combat interesting was completely lost after those games. I tried going to Kotor1 and I only completed the tutorial bit, because I started smelling the Bioware tropes and by the time I was done with said tutorial world I was intoxicated and not in a good way.