Vapourware RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

[hayst]

i will answer why nobody is going to show this challenge run for me.

>because this is not possible.

Bioware was always good in their encounter design and they make sure to add enemies with different resistances, using force fields, capable of petrifying, etc.. so regardless of how do you think the game is easy or not, you HAVE to use your abilities, skills, weapons and items in a thoughtful way to suceed.

while yes, Kotor 1 is easier than BG, its combat encounter and system is well made and regardless of being easier, what matters is Consistency which this game has all the way throught.

No way you are serious. All of the Kotor, (with the sole exception of the final fight with Malak) is about using the one attack your put the most feat points in over and over. You use force powers or other attacks just to shorten the encounter or to relive the boredom. If you want to sell the first Kotor, do it based on the fact that it is well realised vanillia Star Wars. Any other way will fail.

Jeremy Soule elevates the presentation of so many games he's worked on. The music in Kotor and NWN are so spot on for their atmosphere.

 

[Serus]

i will answer why nobody is going to show this challenge run for me.

>because this is not possible.

Bioware was always good in their encounter design and they make sure to add enemies with different resistances, using force fields, capable of petrifying, etc.. so regardless of how do you think the game is easy or not, you HAVE to use your abilities, skills, weapons and items in a thoughtful way to suceed.

while yes, Kotor 1 is easier than BG, its combat encounter and system is well made and regardless of being easier, what matters is Consistency which this game has all the way throught.

No way you are serious. All of the Kotor, (with the sole exception of the final fight with Malak) is about using the one attack your put the most feat points in over and over. You use force powers or other attacks just to shorten the encounter or to relive the boredom. If you want to sell the first Kotor, do it based on the fact that it is well realised vanillia Star Wars. Any other way will fail.

Jeremy Soule elevates the presentation of so many games he's worked on. The music in Kotor and NWN are so spot on for their atmosphere.

Graphicwhores - we know of them. Musicwhores - that's new, right?
I can appreciate good music in game as much as the next guy but honestly - it has even less influence than graphics in final quality of a game if the gameplay sucks. And in case of Kotor 1 it does. Objectively so. This is a party-based game where fighting is the most important/biggest part of gameplay and you end with combat that is easy and rarely require using tactics. No other elements that usually make a CRPG game (like exploration - lol) is particularly well done either. No matter how good music or other elements can be - a game without good gameplay cannot be good. Unless "playing the hell out of" is enough of a "standard" for a masterpiece for someone.
I never played Kotor 2.

 

[Luzur]

fuckin' Might and Magic 3-5 dammit

 

[ELEXmakesMeHard]

I think that Vavra Chadsim is the closest thing to a genuine masterpiece. The gameplay systems, atmosphere, and immersion are top tier. Hard to master, hardcore is truly hardcore, great hard-earned zero-to-hero progression, historical authenticity, no wokeism, no scaling, great voice talent & humor, immersive music, looks beautiful, extreme variety in activities (especially with DLC), mature & bloody. I'm hungry!

 

[hayst]

i will answer why nobody is going to show this challenge run for me.

>because this is not possible.

Bioware was always good in their encounter design and they make sure to add enemies with different resistances, using force fields, capable of petrifying, etc.. so regardless of how do you think the game is easy or not, you HAVE to use your abilities, skills, weapons and items in a thoughtful way to suceed.

while yes, Kotor 1 is easier than BG, its combat encounter and system is well made and regardless of being easier, what matters is Consistency which this game has all the way throught.

No way you are serious. All of the Kotor, (with the sole exception of the final fight with Malak) is about using the one attack your put the most feat points in over and over. You use force powers or other attacks just to shorten the encounter or to relive the boredom. If you want to sell the first Kotor, do it based on the fact that it is well realised vanillia Star Wars. Any other way will fail.

Jeremy Soule elevates the presentation of so many games he's worked on. The music in Kotor and NWN are so spot on for their atmosphere.

Graphicwhores - we know of them. Musicwhores - that's new, right?
I can appreciate good music in game as much as the next guy but honestly - it has even less influence than graphics in final quality of a game if the gameplay sucks. And in case of Kotor 1 it does. Objectively so. This is a party-based game where fighting is the most important/biggest part of gameplay and you end with combat that is easy and rarely require using tactics. No other elements that usually make a CRPG game (like exploration - lol) is particularly well done either. No matter how good music or other elements can be - a game without good gameplay cannot be good. Unless "playing the hell out of" is enough of a "standard" for a masterpiece for someone.
I never played Kotor 2.

Hard to argue with someone whose opinion is objective. Good music making a game better isn't some wild take. Regarding Kotor 2, it's combat is only slightly better. A few more difficult encounters and modifying weapons. Plays the same.

 

[Tyranicon]

I think that Vavra Chadsim is the closest thing to a genuine masterpiece. The gameplay systems, atmosphere, and immersion are top tier. Hard to master, hardcore is truly hardcore, great hard-earned zero-to-hero progression, historical authenticity, no wokeism, no scaling, great voice talent & humor, immersive music, looks beautiful, extreme variety in activities (especially with DLC), mature & bloody. I'm hungry!

Writing is also surprisingly good.

Maybe I should redownload it.

 

[Ryan muller]

i will answer why nobody is going to show this challenge run for me.

>because this is not possible.

Bioware was always good in their encounter design and they make sure to add enemies with different resistances, using force fields, capable of petrifying, etc.. so regardless of how do you think the game is easy or not, you HAVE to use your abilities, skills, weapons and items in a thoughtful way to suceed.

while yes, Kotor 1 is easier than BG, its combat encounter and system is well made and regardless of being easier, what matters is Consistency which this game has all the way throught.

No way you are serious. All of the Kotor, (with the sole exception of the final fight with Malak) is about using the one attack your put the most feat points in over and over. You use force powers or other attacks just to shorten the encounter or to relive the boredom. If you want to sell the first Kotor, do it based on the fact that it is well realised vanillia Star Wars. Any other way will fail.

>Caio nord shows up in Kashyrr

>Player goes to use critical strikes and rapid fire

>Stun
>Poison
>Armor up

Bang everybody is dead.

>Go back
Shield up

>Energy resistance

>Force aura

>Force whirlwind

>Knight speed

Now you counter acted poison, has buffs to make up for the lack of defese needed to equip robes and stunned an enemy whose is known for extreme precision and the ability to crit as easy as you breath.

Kotor encounter design often will make you unable to just auto attack and will demand you to think, you can not notice due to being an incredibly natural thing, but you do.

This happens since early encounters such as the droid with the ability to petrify in the sith base at taris, to the fucking end.

No player will win all the arena fights at taris without relying on grenades for example

Same to late game encounters such as the ones in Tantooine.

Saying its all about 'brute forcing" is nothing but falacies that cannot be proven in any circumstance.

Kotor is not only great by being a well realized star wars game, its great because its overall well designed and compact within its design document.

 

[Ryan muller]

In fact, 90% of the time codex keeps repeating about a game being "so easy you dont need to think or can just keep brute forcing your way" its just falacies without any visual/factual proof

If i look at a game and i say it has an actual flaw by nullifying an element of gameplay completely (such as U7's combat) i really mean it and its easy to prove


Nowadays "saying anything" to try and shove the narrative about games being "so easy" is so ridiculous that forging a narrative became pathetically easy, meanwhile codex has half of their games having worst combat and encounter design than the games the hive mind keep calling horseshit.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Calo Nord is designed to be beaten by the end of the second planet which for most players is Tatooine. Forget all that extra shit. All you need is Valor, Knight speed + auto attack for it to be GG. Kill his adds (only 4 of them) then focus on him. In fact if you're a guardian, forget the adds just use basic attack to close the gap with Force Jump and get right in Calo's face. This will cause his A.I. to switch to melee which is the equivalent of signing his own death warrant.

I like KotOR 1, in fact it's one of my favorite games and I just completed my last playthrough two months ago, but it's not a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. Valor + Speed + basic attack will carry you through 99% of the combat, including Malak.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

>Player goes to use critical strikes and rapid fire

Who even uses that stuff

 

[The_Mask]

Kotor is not only great by being a well realized star wars game, its great because its overall well designed and compact within its design document.

Dude... what... ?!?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Kotor is not only great by being a well realized star wars game, its great because its overall well designed and compact within its design document.

Dude... what... ?!?

Let it go,

rapid fire

Dude is playing a Shoota Boy in a game about Choppa Boyz and Weirdboyz.

 

[KainenMorden]

BG1 and 2's encounter design benefited from the fact that the work had already been done for them.

What do you mean by this? That they just had to copy the encounter design of Gold box/Dark sun?

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

BG1 and 2's encounter design benefited from the fact that the work had already been done for them.

What do you mean by this? That they just had to copy the encounter design of Gold box/Dark sun?

Not the encounter design, but the whole DND ruleset. When they tried to come up with their own shit it was feeble at best.

 

[Ryan muller]

Calo Nord is designed to be beaten by the end of the second planet which for most players is Tatooine. Forget all that extra shit. All you need is Valor, Knight speed + auto attack for it to be GG. Kill his adds (only 4 of them) then focus on him. In fact if you're a guardian, forget the adds just use basic attack to close the gap with Force Jump and get right in Calo's face. This will cause his A.I. to switch to melee which is the equivalent of signing his own death warrant.

I like KotOR 1, in fact it's one of my favorite games and I just completed my last playthrough two months ago, but it's not a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. Valor + Speed + basic attack will carry you through 99% of the combat, including Malak.

>Dont think

>Use knight + valor, kill all of his servants first then proceed to force jump so you can get closer and kill him

I dont think i even need to explain my point here anymore.

 

[Ryan muller]

Calo Nord is designed to be beaten by the end of the second planet which for most players is Tatooine. Forget all that extra shit. All you need is Valor, Knight speed + auto attack for it to be GG. Kill his adds (only 4 of them) then focus on him. In fact if you're a guardian, forget the adds just use basic attack to close the gap with Force Jump and get right in Calo's face. This will cause his A.I. to switch to melee which is the equivalent of signing his own death warrant.

I like KotOR 1, in fact it's one of my favorite games and I just completed my last playthrough two months ago, but it's not a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. Valor + Speed + basic attack will carry you through 99% of the combat, including Malak.

Also, i dont think calo has a melee patern regardless of distance. But show me otherwise and i shall believe.

 

[KainenMorden]

BG1 and 2's encounter design benefited from the fact that the work had already been done for them.

What do you mean by this? That they just had to copy the encounter design of Gold box/Dark sun?

Not the encounter design, but the whole DND ruleset. When they tried to come up with their own shit it was feeble at best.

I dont take that as the work being done for them but then again many players feel that the combat encounters were not done well/too much cheesy itemization/too many cheesy tactics are available.

Translating dnd rules to a video game is no easy task imho but I do think, in general, it's better to have an established ruleset than to try to make your own.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Calo Nord is designed to be beaten by the end of the second planet which for most players is Tatooine. Forget all that extra shit. All you need is Valor, Knight speed + auto attack for it to be GG. Kill his adds (only 4 of them) then focus on him. In fact if you're a guardian, forget the adds just use basic attack to close the gap with Force Jump and get right in Calo's face. This will cause his A.I. to switch to melee which is the equivalent of signing his own death warrant.

I like KotOR 1, in fact it's one of my favorite games and I just completed my last playthrough two months ago, but it's not a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. Valor + Speed + basic attack will carry you through 99% of the combat, including Malak.

>Dont think

>Use knight + valor, kill all of his servants first then proceed to force jump so you can get closer and kill him

I dont think i even need to explain my point here anymore.

Prebuffs do not require thought. It's left clicking twice to make the drudgery end faster and it applies to literally every fight in the game. It's not deep, it's not interesting, it's every RPG in existence. You don't even need to jump, you can simply run over to him and engage him in melee.

 

[Ryan muller]

Calo Nord is designed to be beaten by the end of the second planet which for most players is Tatooine. Forget all that extra shit. All you need is Valor, Knight speed + auto attack for it to be GG. Kill his adds (only 4 of them) then focus on him. In fact if you're a guardian, forget the adds just use basic attack to close the gap with Force Jump and get right in Calo's face. This will cause his A.I. to switch to melee which is the equivalent of signing his own death warrant.

I like KotOR 1, in fact it's one of my favorite games and I just completed my last playthrough two months ago, but it's not a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. Valor + Speed + basic attack will carry you through 99% of the combat, including Malak.

>Dont think

>Use knight + valor, kill all of his servants first then proceed to force jump so you can get closer and kill him

I dont think i even need to explain my point here anymore.

Prebuffs do not require thought. It's left clicking twice to make the drudgery end faster and it applies to literally every fight in the game. It's not deep, it's not interesting, it's every RPG in existence. You don't even need to jump, you can simply run over to him and engage him in melee.

And why did you revolve around using his tantooine version which is his weakest version? Sure of a nice coincidence

In the kashyrr version ive mentioned for example he not only shields himself but dont change his pattern to melee, see how it goes:

https://youtu.be/DxzcrQsZcmc

And i do have other examples if this one dont serve you well and somehow is enough to translate to "every encounter only needs to auto attack" such as the double taranatek which throws the player alone against two strong enemies that have the ability to destroy you in a few hits and even poison the player, such battles have inumerous ways players try to exploit and use a number of creative strats to win

This is far from an one time case either and as such people who says the encounter design does make easier to just brute force are full of shit

It doesnt, its a fallacy.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

And why did you revolve around using his tantooine version which is his weakest version? Sure of a nice coincidence

Because the canonical order of planets is Tatooine > Kashyyyk > Manaan > Korriban but nice attempt at moving the goalposts.
The reality is, I beat his ass like a cheap drum on Tatooine, and I could do it on any planet using the exact same method because surprising to no one, this is an encounter that is designed to be beaten on the second planet by console players, with console player levels of intelligence. Hell, the very video you linked proves it requires no thought. Player goes into the fight with party members already damaged> Player doesn't buff> Player is a Consular yet chooses to fight in melee which is playing to the weakness of his class> player uses multiple under-powered flurries that miss in succession lowering his own defense> Player is using auto-level relying on the game to build party members for them> Player succeeds on the first try regardless.

This is not a hard fight.

Your assumption that he doesn't shield himself on Tatooine is also incorrect. That was a point in the fight where I had already busted his energy shield which took ~2 hits.

 

[Ryan muller]

And why did you revolve around using his tantooine version which is his weakest version? Sure of a nice coincidence

Because the canonical order of planets is Tatooine > Kashyyyk > Manaan > Korriban but nice attempt at moving the goalposts.
The reality is, I beat his ass like a cheap drum on Tatooine, and I could do it on any planet using the exact same method because surprising to no one, this is an encounter that is designed to be beaten on the second planet by console players, with console player levels of intelligence. Hell, the very video you linked proves it requires no thought. Player goes into the fight with party members already damaged> Player doesn't buff> Player is a Consular yet chooses to fight in melee which is playing to the weakness of his class> player uses multiple under-powered flurries that miss in succession lowering his own defense> Player is using auto-level relying on the game to build party members for them> Player succeeds on the first try regardless.

This is not a hard fight.

Your assumption that he doesn't shield himself on Tatooine is also incorrect. That was a point in the fight where I had already busted his energy shield which took ~2 hits.

1. Which doesnt matter, the game is open ended and someone playing it by the first time doesnt necessarily know which is the order.

2. Never said the game was hard, being >>hard<< and >>not being able to auto attack<< the whole game are very different things.

3. In said video player relied at:
Using grenades to keep the wookies down, Storing a level so he could use to restore to Full HP at a critical moment and using force push everytime Nord would heal himself at whim (which doesnt indicate auto level build, instead an specific ocasion he literally choosed to do it)

He also managed to lose juhani and almost loosing his PC 2x due to his lack of ability in movement and lackluster force usage

if the game was about brute forcing he would literally go there without doing anything else and just meleeing Nord to death

 

[Ryan muller]

And why did you revolve around using his tantooine version which is his weakest version? Sure of a nice coincidence

Because the canonical order of planets is Tatooine > Kashyyyk > Manaan > Korriban but nice attempt at moving the goalposts.
The reality is, I beat his ass like a cheap drum on Tatooine, and I could do it on any planet using the exact same method because surprising to no one, this is an encounter that is designed to be beaten on the second planet by console players, with console player levels of intelligence. Hell, the very video you linked proves it requires no thought. Player goes into the fight with party members already damaged> Player doesn't buff> Player is a Consular yet chooses to fight in melee which is playing to the weakness of his class> player uses multiple under-powered flurries that miss in succession lowering his own defense> Player is using auto-level relying on the game to build party members for them> Player succeeds on the first try regardless.

This is not a hard fight.

Your assumption that he doesn't shield himself on Tatooine is also incorrect. That was a point in the fight where I had already busted his energy shield which took ~2 hits.

Also, the screenshots are meaningless since they dont actually show your performance.

Want me to link some actual first playtroughts of players going at said "stupidly designed encounter and facing it"?

So, well: https://youtu.be/tA6BsecTI4w

25:00

Also, read my posts before. Never said the game is hard because it isnt, my point doesnt have shit to do with its difficult and instead with the fact encounters are >>directly<< designed to make you use your ablities such as Darth landon's which will make sure to try his hardest to stun the living hell out of your characters.

As for his Melee patern, if he does it regardless then it sure as hell isnt something he always go for.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

How does KOTOR hold up on its hardest difficulty?

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

1. Which doesnt matter, the game is open ended and someone playing it by the first time doesnt necessarily know which is the order.

Yet it didn't stop you from kvetching about fighting him on Tatooine when it's the most common place to fight him.

2. Never said the game was hard, being >>hard<< and >>not being able to auto attack<< the whole game are very different things.

The definition of brute forcing your way through a game is successfully using the same tactic on practically every encounter and this fits KotOR to a "T". Prebuff + Auto = 99% of encounters won with ease. For the remaining 1% sprinkle in healing or medkits.

3. In said video player relied at:
Using grenades to keep the wookies down, Storing a level so he could use to restore to Full HP at a critical moment and using force push everytime Nord would heal himself at whim (which doesnt indicate auto level build, instead an specific ocasion he literally choosed to do it)

He also managed to lose juhani and almost loosing his PC 2x due to his lack of ability in movement and lackluster force usage

if the game was about brute forcing he would literally go there without doing anything else and just meleeing Nord to death

Lol no. He shouldn't have needed to grenade the wookiees at all (junk foes that do no damage) and save a level to heal himself which was only necessary due to his own incompetence. He's trash, yet even so, the game couldn't punish him for it. The guy didn't even focus down a single foe, the most basic strategy used in any RPG. Stop pretending this is because of good encounter design.

Also, the screenshots are meaningless since they dont actually show your performance.

Bad-faith tactics, you're going to have to learn to cope with reality at some point.

Spoiler

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

How does KOTOR hold up on its hardest difficulty?

It should be assumed that hard = normal mode in KotOR. If you've played through NWN on NM, you've played something harder than KotOR's HM.

There are two things you can do to make the game harder, first you should download the mod that restores the repeating rifles' ability to do two attacks per round by default. This was removed because the devs were afraid that it would make the game too hard. Second, you could download the K1 Restoration mod which restores the "insane" difficulty. Personally, I don't care for many of the changes in that mod (adds a lot of other shit that should have stayed cut back in) so I rarely use it, that and I prefer the K1 Community Patch and the two are incompatible.