Vapourware RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

[Ryan muller]

1. Which doesnt matter, the game is open ended and someone playing it by the first time doesnt necessarily know which is the order.

Yet it didn't stop you from kvetching about fighting him on Tatooine when it's the most common place to fight him.

2. Never said the game was hard, being >>hard<< and >>not being able to auto attack<< the whole game are very different things.

The definition of brute forcing your way through a game is successfully using the same tactic on practically every encounter and this fits KotOR to a "T". Prebuff + Auto = 99% of encounters won with ease. For the remaining 1% sprinkle in healing or medkits.

3. In said video player relied at:
Using grenades to keep the wookies down, Storing a level so he could use to restore to Full HP at a critical moment and using force push everytime Nord would heal himself at whim (which doesnt indicate auto level build, instead an specific ocasion he literally choosed to do it)

He also managed to lose juhani and almost loosing his PC 2x due to his lack of ability in movement and lackluster force usage

if the game was about brute forcing he would literally go there without doing anything else and just meleeing Nord to death

Lol no. He shouldn't have needed to grenade the wookiees at all (junk foes that do no damage) and save a level to heal himself which was only necessary due to his own incompetence. He's trash, yet even so, the game couldn't punish him for it. The guy didn't even focus down a single foe, the most basic strategy used in any RPG. Stop pretending this is because of good encounter design.

Also, the screenshots are meaningless since they dont actually show your performance.

Bad-faith tactics, you're going to have to learn to cope with reality at some point.

Spoiler

>Lol no. He shouldn't have needed to grenade the wookiees at all (junk foes that do no damage) and save a level to heal himself which was only necessary due to his own incompetence. He's trash, yet even so, the game couldn't punish him for it. The guy didn't even focus down a single foe, the most basic strategy used in any RPG. Stop pretending this is because of good encounter design.


Yet you ignored the video ive just linked here. Want another?

Its not an isolated case nor this is the worst, theres people who literally died 6-7 times before beating nord and recordes it straight face.

Again, this is not about the game being "hard" this is about >>not being possible auto attacking the whole thing" which you insist is a thing


And no, screenshot isnt proof. I can literally make the same Lmao and probably try and make it more genuine by having my FP bar at full. its quite easy to forge a screenshot, less so to with actual gameplay. Dont get me wrong, i dont think its hard to beat nord, nor that you couldnt do so, i Just think its hard to believe you used no force powers, walk directly to his face, didnt buff nor used any strat and just auto attacked him to death.

And regardless of the insistence for this one example, i had others. Again darth bandon and his constant stun/life drain

If i do link a shitton of those videos showing people actually getting their asses kicked on multiple moments however, then narrative will change to "Shitty console players", this being the point. If the game consists of "lacking Any meaningful encounter" and you can just bruteforce your way regardless NOBODY would fail by doing exactly that.

My point isnt about the game being hard, my point is very simple. You >>need<< to use your tools

You say you dont, i want to see how this is the case. How said encounters arent a thing?

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Yet you ignored the video ive just linked here.

Why would I need to ignore a video of a bad female streamer being bad at an easy RPG? It didn't bear mentioning because this exactly is the type of gamer that KotOR's combat is made for. The eternal console player. Saying the combat is "well-designed" because bad players die in it is retarded.

And no, screenshot isnt proof. I can literally make the same Lmao and probably try and make it more genuine by having my FP bar at full.

Lmao, the FP bars would be at full when I had just used Valor and Speed... Fucking what? Stop posting.

i Just think its hard to believe you used no force powers, walk directly to his face, didnt buff nor used any strat and just auto attacked him to death.

God, you're fighting a strawman, read the first post I made:

Calo Nord is designed to be beaten by the end of the second planet which for most players is Tatooine. Forget all that extra shit. All you need is Valor, Knight speed + auto attack for it to be GG. Kill his adds (only 4 of them) then focus on him. In fact if you're a guardian, forget the adds just use basic attack to close the gap with Force Jump and get right in Calo's face. This will cause his A.I. to switch to melee which is the equivalent of signing his own death warrant.

I like KotOR 1, in fact it's one of my favorite games and I just completed my last playthrough two months ago, but it's not a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. Valor + Speed + basic attack will carry you through 99% of the combat, including Malak.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

, the very video you linked proves it requires no thought. Player goes into the fight with party members already damaged> Player doesn't buff> Player is a Consular yet chooses to fight in melee which is playing to the weakness of his class> player uses multiple under-powered flurries that miss in succession lowering his own defense> Player is using auto-level relying on the game to build party members for them> Player succeeds on the first try regardless.

Sheeit.

 

[Ryan muller]

Yet you ignored the video ive just linked here.

Why would I need to ignore a video of a bad female streamer being bad at an easy RPG? It didn't bear mentioning because this exactly is the type of gamer that KotOR's combat is made for. The eternal console player. Saying the combat is "well-designed" because bad players die in it is retarded.

And no, screenshot isnt proof. I can literally make the same Lmao and probably try and make it more genuine by having my FP bar at full.

Lmao, the FP bars would be at full when I had just used Valor and Speed... Fucking what? Stop posting.

i Just think its hard to believe you used no force powers, walk directly to his face, didnt buff nor used any strat and just auto attacked him to death.

God, you're fighting a strawman, read the first post I made:

Calo Nord is designed to be beaten by the end of the second planet which for most players is Tatooine. Forget all that extra shit. All you need is Valor, Knight speed + auto attack for it to be GG. Kill his adds (only 4 of them) then focus on him. In fact if you're a guardian, forget the adds just use basic attack to close the gap with Force Jump and get right in Calo's face. This will cause his A.I. to switch to melee which is the equivalent of signing his own death warrant.

I like KotOR 1, in fact it's one of my favorite games and I just completed my last playthrough two months ago, but it's not a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. Valor + Speed + basic attack will carry you through 99% of the combat, including Malak.

Then you have no point here.

Regardless of it, i did mention specific situation in which the notion of "buff = kill" didnt apply in such a straightforward maner

Another example on top of my head that i can easily think of is the whole fight with the Trandonshans in which they will blast your ass off with grenades, a consider ammount of enemies are in the same Room, you start the fight close to the melee fighter while most enemies are at the sides of the map, throwing grenades and going ranged rather than melee

They can = stun you with concusive grenades, poison you with poison grenades or even knock a character down for a few seconds

This isnt a straightforward encounter, youll want AoE attacks or nullify the most possible effects within the fastest time possible, which means force valor is an insta, as well as shit like Force wave or if playing as dark side, Force storm
Time for healing isnt plenty so its better to use force heal rather than depending on kits, maybe having each Party member focusing on one target at time (specially the ones at larger ranges) while your PC defeats the melee ones that are closer

Same for encounters such as the Terentateks which is about luring and making the enemy unable to attack you

Or darth bandon which is all about preventing stun and having a force user healer to make up for life drain

But this is the case since the start with the droid at the sith base on taris being your presentation for enemies with the ability to petrify or Marl which will follow you all the way throught the arena and melee you to death in a time where med kits arent all that reliable and you have no force powers.

From time to time i recall situations where enemy behavior and formation would demand different strats which made the gameplay flow better.

This is VERY different from lets say, ultima underworld where enemies are scattered around and fights are usually 1v1 or 1v2 at best, with enemies being way too easy and being mostly quite similar in behavior, having patterns that were repetitive and movesets that really didnt require any tool usage.

Only exception in that game was fire elementals and only because they dealt quite a lot of damage and the gimmick at L7

Fallout, particularly is also another example of what i mean, since atleast fo2 is considerably harder than Kotor and still, enemies all rush at you with mostly the same patterns, meaning encounter design was more about layout than "which enemies are positioned at which place"

You will always lure them, always try to lock them on doors and shoot for eyes or head (for knock them unconscious) and very rarely stray from that (a bit more on 2, still not much)

 

[NecroLord]

Yet you ignored the video ive just linked here.

Why would I need to ignore a video of a bad female streamer being bad at an easy RPG? It didn't bear mentioning because this exactly is the type of gamer that KotOR's combat is made for. The eternal console player. Saying the combat is "well-designed" because bad players die in it is retarded.

And no, screenshot isnt proof. I can literally make the same Lmao and probably try and make it more genuine by having my FP bar at full.

Lmao, the FP bars would be at full when I had just used Valor and Speed... Fucking what? Stop posting.

i Just think its hard to believe you used no force powers, walk directly to his face, didnt buff nor used any strat and just auto attacked him to death.

God, you're fighting a strawman, read the first post I made:

Calo Nord is designed to be beaten by the end of the second planet which for most players is Tatooine. Forget all that extra shit. All you need is Valor, Knight speed + auto attack for it to be GG. Kill his adds (only 4 of them) then focus on him. In fact if you're a guardian, forget the adds just use basic attack to close the gap with Force Jump and get right in Calo's face. This will cause his A.I. to switch to melee which is the equivalent of signing his own death warrant.

I like KotOR 1, in fact it's one of my favorite games and I just completed my last playthrough two months ago, but it's not a hard game by any stretch of the imagination. Valor + Speed + basic attack will carry you through 99% of the combat, including Malak.

Force Speed is fucking busted. The strongest and most useful force power, hands down. Every Jedi in your party should get it, no exceptions.
I also like Valor and Energy Resistance as buffs.

 

[NecroLord]

How does KOTOR hold up on its hardest difficulty?

On Hard enemies do 50% more damage and you also take full damage from critical hits(even on Normal, I believe you didn't take the extra damage, it was just an auto hit for the enemy).
Still a great game and RPG. Just do not expect something groundbreaking or mind blowing in terms of combat, design and mechanics.

 

[Lt Broccoli]

In alphabetical order:

Alpha Protocol
Arcanum
Baldur's Gate 1/2
Champions of Krynn
Dark Souls
Dark Sun Shattered Lands
Darkest Dungeon
Deus Ex
Dungeon Master
Fallout 1/2
Icewind Dale
Might and Magic I
Pool of Radiance
Ravenloft Stone Prophet
Tyranny

 

[Grunker]

kotor 1 a banal kid's tv show

kotor 2 is a glorious masterpiece

 

[Ryan muller]

In alphabetical order:

Alpha Protocol
Arcanum
Baldur's Gate 1/2
Champions of Krynn
Dark Souls
Dark Sun Shattered Lands
Darkest Dungeon
Deus Ex
Dungeon Master
Fallout 1/2
Icewind Dale
Might and Magic I
Pool of Radiance
Ravenloft Stone Prophet
Tyranny

Whats your definition for masterpiece may i ask?

 

[Ryan muller]

kotor 1 a banal kid's tv show

kotor 2 is a glorious masterpiece

Kotor 2 is edgy and unfinished, party members are underwhelming aside from kreia and HK, theres lots of boring sections (and one of the worst intros in any game ever) and mostly worse execution for the storyline

Kotor 1 is classic star wars at its best and doesnt tryhard to be edgy and "deconstruct" anything, which already makes it well and beyond above 2

 

[anvi]

I am surprised Hired Guns isn't talked about more.

 

[cigaretteEnjoyer_despirit]

kotor 1 a banal kid's tv show

kotor 2 is a glorious masterpiece

Kotor 2 is better in terms of storytelling. Your personal arc is more ambiguous and engaging. You're given the fact that your character betrayed his order, and you can sort of infuse it with different meaning depending on what kind of person you want to roleplay as. There are few moments in the game where you can have an actual dispute with an npc, and no matter which option you pick it will be substantiated because the issue is multidimentional. That's how I felt about the first conversation with Atris.

Its also nice that siding with the baddies does not necessarily lead to worse results. It is an interesting spin on the formula.

Not to mention that

Spoiler

I like Peragus

 

[LarryTyphoid]

I also used to hold the opinion that KotOR 1 was superior to its sequel because it was more in-line with the rest of the Star Wars series in terms of tone, but a recent attempt at replaying KotOR 1, immediately after finishing KotOR 2, reminded me of how terrible KotOR 1's writing really is. It's constantly juvenile and cringeworthy in a way the original Star Wars films never were, and is arguably even more out of line with the rest of the franchise than the sequel. The constant references to racism are completely alien to the Star Wars setting, for example; the only other time I've seen alien discrimination used as a theme in Star Wars (outside of Disney Soy Wars which I have never subjected myself to) was in the Farlander Papers, a tie-in book for the X-Wing video game.

And even this was only as a framing device for all the races being listed, because the Farlander Papers served as a guide to the gameplay and the setting. But KotOR uses it as a premise for quests constantly.

 

[Ryan muller]

I also used to hold the opinion that KotOR 1 was superior to its sequel because it was more in-line with the rest of the Star Wars series in terms of tone, but a recent attempt at replaying KotOR 1, immediately after finishing KotOR 2, reminded me of how terrible KotOR 1's writing really is. It's constantly juvenile and cringeworthy in a way the original Star Wars films never were, and is arguably even more out of line with the rest of the franchise than the sequel. The constant references to racism are completely alien to the Star Wars setting, for example; the only other time I've seen alien discrimination used as a theme in Star Wars (outside of Disney Soy Wars which I have never subjected myself to) was in the Farlander Papers, a tie-in book for the X-Wing video game.

And even this was only as a framing device for all the races being listed, because the Farlander Papers served as a guide to the gameplay and the setting. But KotOR uses it as a premise for quests constantly.

Kotor 2 literally goes against what george lukas believed to be the essence of star wars.

But theres lots of reasons to why story in Kotor 1 is better. Not only it handled macro and micro plot points to perfection by managing to flesh out its story and foreshadow the plot twist perfectly but by also work pretty well the dynamics between your party and you, you slowly get to discover more of the dark secrets behind Revan and how the Jedi order operate, it flashes out a lot of the worldbuilding elements of star wars such as the fact the republic can be quite utilitarian as you ser in manaan or how Wookie societies worked, it also delve a lot into the mandalorian conflict and the nature of being a Jedi

It introduces future enemies earlier and reuses them at later story points and it still manages to tie everything together and keep stakes at high (once you start to get more comfortable about getting the star maps, Leviathan happens and everything goes to shit, you also lose bastilla)

Kotor being quite cheesy sometimes isnt a negative since again, this is literally what star wars does since Episode 4. Aliens will speak about the favt they are aliens and highlight the differences between humans and themselves, mostly in a quirky way which is NOT supposed to be taken serious

Meanwhile in kotor 2: "ApAthY iS deAtH"

It tries to be phylosophical to ridiculous degrees and it mostly falls flat because it doesnt fit in star wars. It also contradicts the gameplay in which the design never actually reward the player for being neutral which not only is the hardest route, but the one thing you would try to do if following Kreia's advice.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Neutrality is the exact opposite of what Kreia is trying to teach you. She wants you to deny power that does not come from within because the Force negatively manipulates the outcomes of self-centered individuals who draw upon it too much. She's is a Sith who understands that "the man behind the curtain" actually hates the Sith ideal, the Force does not free them, it enslaves them, which is completely in keeping with what George Lucas made. The only way this ceases to be the case is if the Force, through mass trauma, is removed as an influencing factor, which can be done in two ways, the mass extinction of all life which according to her is not desirable, nor is it her plan (for obvious reasons), or via the creation of more wounds in the Force that create feedback echoes of that trauma to the point where beings that are Force Sensitive can no longer hear or feel its will. Jedi and Sith cease to be movers and shakers at this point, unless by their own natural competence they manage to hold onto power. The galaxy profits because the endless cycle of violence ends and pure merit reigns. This is the natural conclusion to the Sith's autism on seeking power.

That's her theory, a theory that could be (is) utterly wrong and disastrous, but also a theory that you are completely free to reject in game. She sees you as the Ubermensch, a being with the ability to shape the fate of the galaxy in your own image, and even though you can end the cycle, after all the pain and sorrow it's caused you, in full knowledge of the ramifications, you can decide not to. The "new god" comes to the conclusion that the "old god" was justified and correct. That is the ultimate expression of free will to Kreia, but more importantly you can also tell her that you still wish to save her despite her wretchedness. In doing this, she is put into checkmate, the Force is not malevolent, it sent you there to save her.

She doesn't give a shit about neutrality, she's a Machiavellian who wants you to use whatever tools bring you closer to your goals (her goals). The game does not and should not reward you for taking the pragmatic path.

 

[OSK]

Kotor 1 is classic star wars at its best and doesnt tryhard to be edgy and "deconstruct" anything, which already makes it well and beyond above 2

I'm guessing you hate Andor as well, huh?

 

[Lt Broccoli]

In alphabetical order:

Alpha Protocol
Arcanum
Baldur's Gate 1/2
Champions of Krynn
Dark Souls
Dark Sun Shattered Lands
Darkest Dungeon
Deus Ex
Dungeon Master
Fallout 1/2
Icewind Dale
Might and Magic I
Pool of Radiance
Ravenloft Stone Prophet
Tyranny

Whats your definition for masterpiece may i ask?

The list was mostly intuitive as opposed to any preconceived criteria, but the common threads are:

Unforgettable
Unique Atmosphere
Pulled me back to try it again with a different party/outcome
Introduces an ingenuity I hadn't seen before
Tells a good story

The list is based only what I've tried so far. There are a lot of CRPGs on my bucket list which I have no doubt would add an item to this list.

 

[Ryan muller]

Neutrality is the exact opposite of what Kreia is trying to teach you. She wants you to deny power that does not come from within because the Force negatively manipulates the outcomes of self-centered individuals who draw upon it too much. She's is a Sith who understands that "the man behind the curtain" actually hates the Sith ideal, the Force does not free them, it enslaves them, which is completely in keeping with what George Lucas made. The only way this ceases to be the case is if the Force, through mass trauma, is removed as an influencing factor, which can be done in two ways, the mass extinction of all life which according to her is not desirable, nor is it her plan (for obvious reasons), or via the creation of more wounds in the Force that create feedback echoes of that trauma to the point where beings that are Force Sensitive can no longer hear or feel its will. Jedi and Sith cease to be movers and shakers at this point, unless by their own natural competence they manage to hold onto power. The galaxy profits because the endless cycle of violence ends and pure merit reigns. This is the natural conclusion to the Sith's autism on seeking power.

That's her theory, a theory that could be (is) utterly wrong and disastrous, but also a theory that you are completely free to reject in game. She sees you as the Ubermensch, a being with the ability to shape the fate of the galaxy in your own image, and even though you can end the cycle, after all the pain and sorrow it's caused you, in full knowledge of the ramifications, you can decide not to. The "new god" comes to the conclusion that the "old god" was justified and correct. That is the ultimate expression of free will to Kreia, but more importantly you can also tell her that you still wish to save her despite her wretchedness. In doing this, she is put into checkmate, the Force is not malevolent, it sent you there to save her.

She doesn't give a shit about neutrality, she's a Machiavellian who wants you to use whatever tools bring you closer to your goals (her goals). The game does not and should not reward you for taking the pragmatic path.

Kreia believe in the force as nothing but an external power which influences humanity to the point of taking their free will completely.

Light sided characters believe in balance which rules all things, the ability to redeem someone, change nature or make humanity progress all given by the force and its purpose, no different from a Christian when believing in their god

Dark sided characters are touched by the taint, corrupted, wanting for power, nothing but utilitarian and egoistic so they cant possibly even have free will to criticize the force as they are taken by the power and completely blind to its effects, thinking they somehow can control it.

It doesnt matter if you tried to save Kreia, this doesnt checkmate her point. If the force tried to save her, it was still the force's purposes which still act like fate pulling its strings.

In fact, this criticism cannot be possibly destroyed without changing the nature of the force, because kreia was right in fact, The force IS something that shouldnt influence human nature as it does.

Understanding Kreia's ideals and what she actually wanted is not possible in a game that has such an interesting premise, which means regardless of what you do you are going against her

Thats because its not possible to understand whats so bad about the force by going light side or dark side, this, my dear, would demand an actual well thought out neutral route. Which the game doesnt provide in any possible way.

And its nonsense to say the game is somehow in line with what George lukas had to portray. Not only Kotor 2 heavily criticizes the nature of the force, but also the code of the Jedi and the heavy binarity of its universe.

 

[NecroLord]

I never bothered drawing comparisons between Kotor 1 and 2. They are both awesome, but for very different reasons.
Kotor 1 is classic Star Wars awesomeness. It sticks to the typical Star Wars success formula. Still a great story and characters.
Kotor 2 is on the grimdark side. Things are not so black and white anymore. A ravished Republic is struggling to rebuild after the Jedi Civil War left it near collapse.
You have a decaying Sith Lord, kept alive only through hatred and the power of the Dark Side.
A Sith Lord abomination who feeds on life and the Force.
And lastly a master manipulator with a depressing perspective on the Force.

 

[Dadd]

Star Wars is cringe

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

It doesnt matter if you tried to save Kreia, this doesnt checkmate her point. If the force tried to save her, it was still the force's purposes which still act like fate pulling its strings.

She's in checkmate because a malevolent Force doesn't allow for the redemption of its ultimate enemy. Despite rearing an Ubermensch, it rejects her conclusions, yet she's still proud of it. There would be no call for pride if the Exile was merely a tool rather than in concord with the Force. The joining of the individual will with the collective will to act with unified purpose.

Kreia was wrong. Humanity itself generates part of the Force, and her assumption that things would be better without its influence is based on nothing.

 

[NecroLord]

It doesnt matter if you tried to save Kreia, this doesnt checkmate her point. If the force tried to save her, it was still the force's purposes which still act like fate pulling its strings.

She's in checkmate because a malevolent Force doesn't allow for the redemption of its ultimate enemy. Despite rearing an Ubermensch, it rejects her conclusions, yet she's still proud of it. There would be no call for pride if the Exile was merely a tool rather than in concord with the Force. The joining of the individual will with the collective will to act with unified purpose.

Kreia was wrong. Humanity itself generates part of the Force, and her assumption that things would be better without its influence is based on nothing.

Kreia sees the Force as a malevolent entity that controls and shapes the destinies of all living things. When the Force is out of balance, there are wars and catastrophes. The Exile is so intriguing and fascinating to Kreia because he rejected and gave up the Force and did not die in the process. As you know, extremely few people can give up the Force, as it exists in all living beings.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

When the Force is out of balance, there are wars and catastrophes.

Correct, her assumption however is that these wars and catastrophes are worse with the Force than without, which is based on nothing more than supposition. For all she knows the Force putting its hand on the scale is preventing worse atrocities and an increase in the frequency of wars. There aren't even that many wars in Star Wars, and the noteworthy ones are hundreds or even thousands of years apart. That's putting aside the idea that Kreia supposedly believes that conflict is a good thing, in which beings either find themselves or find themselves lacking. But not those conflicts!

Personally, I think it's a bit of a cope. The reality is mass wars would continue occurring, people who didn't deserve having their fates decided would continue to have their fates decided by others and it would be occurring more often without the superheroes around to keep it in check. What she's really mad about is having to suffer certain consequences for evil actions with the Force around.

What she also fails to consider is that the Force comes from all life, and though a mystery to her, it exists for a reason.

 

[Vic]

But theres lots of reasons to why story in Kotor 1 is better.

take away the big twist at the end and what have you got? classic bioware gather the 4 widgets degeneracy. no, thank you.

 

[d1r]

Might & Magic III
Might & Magic: World of Xeen
Might & Magic VI
Demon's Souls (Original)
Dark Souls (Prepare to Die Edition)
Diablo I
Diablo II
Icewind Dale I
Baldur's Gate I
Baldur's Gate II
Elder Scrolls: Morrowind