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Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
Baldurs Gate 1&2
Mass Effect 1&2
DA:O
Planescape Torment
IWD 1&2

SO if we analyse all the stuff that is common in the games and good and analyse what is common and should be improved than we have a template for future good games right ?!

There is nothing common in those list of games. I mean you just went ahead and put Dragon Age and Mass Effect in the same sentence as PS:T.

I see your point,
but how about observing the games in an abstract way? Than you will find similarities
Like every game on that list has:
- Lots of great cutscenes
- an intriguing stroyline
- mostly very interesting NPC´s
- a lot of choice and consequences
With the exception of PST, not one of the game's you mentioned has a single element of that you described. FFS, IWD and DAO had "intriguing stroylines"? BG and ME had a lot C&C? What are you smoking and where can i find some?
You are right that in an abstract way, every Bioware game since KOTOR (with the exception of DAO) was a wannabe PST, with cutscenes instead of writing. (and all of them failed hard)
And DAO was a wannabe BG2, only "modernized". But since the things you described were never the strenghts of the BGT in the first place, DAO didn't have them either (well, apart from C&C, it had more than BG2, but not what i would describe "a lot".
 
Last edited:

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
Ok, then give me one game you fucking like that is not torment!
I adore BG2, propably my favorite game besides Torment. But not for it's C&C and great cutscenes :roll:

As for games that would fit your creteria better than fucking IWD? (not the same thing as being better games)
PST
MOTB
Fallout 1&2
Alpha Protocol
Arcanum
KOTOR 2
VTMB

Take your pick
 

ROARRR

Savant
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
336
Location
Nirvana
Ok, then give me one game you fucking like that is not torment!
I adore BG2, propably my favorite game besides Torment. But not for it's C&C and great cutscenes :roll:

As for games that would fit your creteria better than fucking IWD? (not the same thing as being better games)
PST
MOTB
Fallout 1&2
Alpha Protocol
Arcanum
KOTOR 2
VTMB

Take your pick
Well, I see now where the trouble begins...in personal tastes...my bad!
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
Ok, then give me one game you fucking like that is not torment!
I adore BG2, propably my favorite game besides Torment. But not for it's C&C and great cutscenes :roll:

As for games that would fit your creteria better than fucking IWD? (not the same thing as being better games)
PST
MOTB
Fallout 1&2
Alpha Protocol
Arcanum
KOTOR 2
VTMB

Take your pick
LTR. I would propably rate higher the games in your list than half the game in mine(except ME1&2 and DA, these were bad and you should be ashamed of yourself for liking them). But the criteria you listed? They are objectivly absent in most of the games you mentioned
 

ROARRR

Savant
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
336
Location
Nirvana
Well, I see now where the trouble begins...in personal tastes...my bad!
Yes. The problem is your personal taste for shitty games and thinking that they have C&C when they don't.

And cutscenes. You have a problem with cutscenes.

Are you retarded?! That is not what I wrote!:killit:

Ok, then give me one game you fucking like that is not torment!
I adore BG2, propably my favorite game besides Torment. But not for it's C&C and great cutscenes :roll:

As for games that would fit your creteria better than fucking IWD? (not the same thing as being better games)
PST
MOTB
Fallout 1&2
Alpha Protocol
Arcanum
KOTOR 2
VTMB

Take your pick
LTR. I would propably rate higher the games in your list than half the game in mine(except ME1&2 and DA, these were bad and you should be ashamed of yourself for liking them). But the criteria you listed? They are objectivly absent in most of the games you mentioned

Well, I like also the games in your list and I am not ashamed of myself liking ME1&2 and DA! But I do not understand why do you think the criteria I listed are objectivly absent:rpgcodex:
 

DSW

Novice
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
34
This is a game made by people who genuinely loved what they were doing, and it's clear that rather than asking themselves "How can we best serve the market?", the developers instead asked "Wouldn't it be awesome if . . .?" It has all the enthusiasm and the quirkiness (for better and worse) of an indie game, but the production values that only a multi-million dollar budget will buy.

"Wouldn't it be awesome if . . .?" that ranged weapons have greater DPS? There is investigation by Myrten & Co on Obsidian board. I got the same result by naive venturing through the game. Very soon in the game, I got sick of non-existent enemy AI, which joggles its chars hither and thither, therefore my party members start doing the same shit. I switched to ranged and never switched back. I did game on “Path of the Damned” with simplest combat strategy – all party members use range weapon only and wear max DR armor possible. Combat tactics was simple too – hit casters, hit tanks, hit the rest.

Positioning of members does not really matters. Taking in account another obvious failure in combat design that there is no pre-buffs + short duration of buffs + circle effective area of buffs, you quickly ends up with bulletproof tactics. Stick yours party together, do not move, spam buffs on yourselves and use ranged and even chained (very unbalanced feature dare to exist by an oversight of lead designer!) offensive spells. Any other tactics is pretention to be needed, and is a LARPing by definition. Any reviewer using word “tactic” about PoE combat has to be fed with Doritos to death.

And there are neither heart, nor soul in the game. Bitter regret only.

Key point was something about twenty years ago when game publishers being in a constant quest “How to enrich ourselves within CRPG?” They sent scouts to reshuffle CRPG genre. Lucky ones found direct road to Skyrim. Unlucky scouts stuck in dead ends and died there. Therefore, all beloved Codexian titles are just gravestones in dead-ends of the road of decline. These titles are culls, not achievements. Beloved Codexian designers are not gods. They are just unlucky scouts of decline. A lost sheep.

Somehow, these lost sheep learnt its lesson and started the same quest for money with knowledge of right direction in mind. They rummaged among nostalgia funs and silly hopers. Thus, modern “incline” titles are just scratching in shallow baskets for some money. The obvious overuse of word “whore” toward goddess, which helps in-game apostols, is the substitution, it is Obsidian’s way to say to its own fate “Fuck you, whore! You had betrayed us, und made lucky others!”

Of course, few indie people try to make game for themselves, not for money. They bring us short relief. However, nothing can change the nature of the man. For example, Mr.Vogel is already in a constant quest for money, you, VD, are on your way, and the only one Styg digging underrail, not yet derailed.

Everything is shit. There is no incline. It never was.
 

Grinning Reaper

Guest
Ok, then give me one game you fucking like that is not torment!
I adore BG2, propably my favorite game besides Torment. But not for it's C&C and great cutscenes :roll:

As for games that would fit your creteria better than fucking IWD? (not the same thing as being better games)
PST
MOTB
Fallout 1&2
Alpha Protocol
Arcanum
KOTOR 2
VTMB

Take your pick
LTR. I would propably rate higher the games in your list than half the game in mine(except ME1&2 and DA, these were bad and you should be ashamed of yourself for liking them). But the criteria you listed? They are objectivly absent in most of the games you mentioned

Well, I like also the games in your list and I am not ashamed of myself liking ME1&2 and DA! But I do not understand why do you think the criteria I listed are objectivly absent:rpgcodex:

List all the great C&C from the BG games, then you will understand.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Somehow, these lost sheep learnt its lesson and started the same quest for money with knowledge of right direction in mind. They rummaged among nostalgia funs and silly hopers. Thus, modern “incline” titles are just scratching in shallow baskets for some money. The obvious overuse of word “whore” toward goddess, which helps in-game apostols, is the substitution, it is Obsidian’s way to say to its own fate “Fuck you, whore! You had betrayed us, und made lucky others!”
Betrayed us? They said they were making a BG clone from the start.

Of course, few indie people try to make game for themselves, not for money. They bring us short relief. However, nothing can change the nature of the man. For example, Mr.Vogel is already in a constant quest for money, you, VD, are on your way, and the only one Styg digging underrail, not yet derailed.
AoD is a cash grab now?

Anyway, the quote is from the Witcher review and wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
 

hiver

Guest
Has anyone ever actually said - BG clone?

Ever?

its quite pathetic seeing you cant make a single argument without it being a fallacy of some kind.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.
...
Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.
...
While at Black Isle we worked with BioWare, the creators of the Infinity Engine, on the development of the Baldur's Gate series, and were responsible for the creation and development of the Infinity Engine-based Icewind Dale series and Planescape: Torment game.
I know you're just a gullible autistic cunt, but humor me and tell me which game is always listed first? Then ponder why.
 

hiver

Guest
Where is the word CLONE you laughable fallacious imbecile, where?

Where is it you retarded stupid cheap turd? Where does it come from in that superficial stupid cunt brain of yours?
 

ROARRR

Savant
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
336
Location
Nirvana
List all the great C&C from the BG games, then you will understand.

Yeah they are not much and they are old, but that doesn´t make them automatically bad.
-For example after Sarevok killing this guy on top of a tower I wondered which tower that was while playing.
-Or the cutscene when reaching friendly arms, I thought Woa this could be the tower where Sarevok did his evil kill. Speaking with the commoners to find out, I got a lot of different interesting information and without the cutscenes I would have never done that!
-Or the cutscene where the wyvern grabs a cow: I thought that is the fucking one I am gona hunt (and in my roleplaying world it was! Well after seeing the dead cow in the cave that is)
-Or the deathscene which was irritating but also mysterious and I wondered what happened with my Avatar (Who the fuck is my char?!).
.
..
...
and so on!
 

Grinning Reaper

Guest
List all the great C&C from the BG games, then you will understand.

Yeah they are not much and they are old, but that doesn´t make them automatically bad.
-For example after Sarevok killing this guy on top of a tower I wondered which tower that was while playing.
-Or the cutscene when reaching friendly arms, I thought Woa this could be the tower where Sarevok did his evil kill. Speaking with the commoners to find out, I got a lot of different interesting information and without the cutscenes I would have never done that!
-Or the cutscene where the wyvern grabs a cow: I thought that is the fucking one I am gona hunt (and in my roleplaying world it was! Well after seeing the dead cow in the cave that is)
-Or the deathscene which was irritating but also mysterious and I wondered what happened with my Avatar (Who the fuck is my char?!).
.
..
...
and so on!

C&C = Choices & Consequences, not cutscenes
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Where is the word CLONE you laughable fallacious imbecile, where?

Where is it you retarded stupid cheap turd? Where does it come from in that superficial stupid cunt brain of yours?
Tourette's syndrome in full swing?

Now you need to be explicitly told that it's a clone? They said they're making a RTwP fantasy game and listed BG several times, always listing it first, even though it's a game Black Isle had nothing to do with (i.e. it's not a reference to past work). Hmm... I wonder what could it possibly be... I bet it's gonna be like Fallout or Arcanum, only better!
 

hiver

Guest
It seems yes, the tourettes extreme stupidity syndrome is in full swing in that ridiculous stupid skull of yours.

Yes, once a stupid shit like you claims it was meant to be a clone i do need to see that explicit word used somewhere, anywhere.
Because guess what, you stupid cheap cunt, you have nothing else but blatant fallacies to splurge.

A word "clone" has a very specific meaning.
And you used it for precisely such purpose, to form a fallacious non existing excuse.

Because you are cheap stupid superficial cunt.
 

ROARRR

Savant
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
336
Location
Nirvana
C&C = Choices & Consequences, not cutscenes
Ok C&C:
->Beeing evil or good is a choice with a lot interesting consequences:
+had impact in the dreams and with it what kind of skill you get per dream
+had impact to the community: -trouble with the flamming fist, -prices in the shops, -trouble with companions and so on

->Choice and consequences which companions you take is very interesting
+harper and zentaurim kiling each
+insulting each other making some compliments if they like each other

->Choice and consquence how you solve quests are not very intense still there in a small way
+Bassilus
+The island with full of werewolfs (How you help and who you help there are some inhabitants for example who are not attacking you and even help you in a way)


I am sure there is more but the thing is this: It has C&C and some of them are good and some are not but overall in an abstract way it is something worth analysing it!
 

Grinning Reaper

Guest
C&C = Choices & Consequences, not cutscenes
Ok C&C:
->Beeing evil or good is a choice with a lot interesting consequences:
+had impact in the dreams and with it what kind of skill you get per dream
+had impact to the community: -trouble with the flamming fist, -prices in the shops, -trouble with companions and so on

->Choice and consequences which companions you take is very interesting
+harper and zentaurim kiling each
+insulting each other making some compliments if they like each other

->Choice and consquence how you solve quests are not very intense still there in a small way
+Bassilus
+The island with full of werewolfs (How you help and who you help there are some inhabitants for example who are not attacking you and even help you in a way)


I am sure there is more but the thing is this: It has C&C and some of them are good and some are not but overall in an abstract way it is something worth analysing it!

Some of the stuff you listed doesn't qualify. Imagine stuff like the world reacting to your choices as you go through the game, like a town being hostile toward you or being destroyed during the game based on decisions you made (note: choice = something that could play out differently when someone else plays the game or you replay it), or alternatively, exclusionary stuff like the decision you make at the beginning of Wasteland 2. I love the BG games by the way, but they don't really have any strong C&C. There are a few instances like you mentioned of gathering friends before the werewolf fight or gathering allies for the Bodhi fight in BG2, but these are extremely minor and also rare. The point that Rake was making was that the C&C in the BG games is minor, not nonexistent. There definitely is some C&C, just not a lot and not on a major scale.

The level of C&C will determine the level of difference between your playthrough and mine. Minor footnotes like who helped you out on werewolf island don't really compare to being cut off from or given access to entire maps and quests and changing the world as you play the game based on decisions that I may have made and you didn't. Playing through The Witcher 1, for example, resulted in a noticeably different story than my friend's playthrough. I'm not a huge fan of the game, but it's a decent example of a somewhat recent game with some C&C. The optional choices you make can shape the story somewhat drastically.
 

ROARRR

Savant
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
Messages
336
Location
Nirvana
Some of the stuff you listed doesn't qualify. Imagine stuff like the world reacting to your choices as you go through the game, like a town being hostile toward you or being destroyed during the game based on decisions you made (note: choice = something that could play out differently when someone else plays the game or you replay it), or alternatively, exclusionary stuff like the decision you make at the beginning of Wasteland 2. I love the BG games by the way, but they don't really have any strong C&C. There are a few instances like you mentioned of gathering friends before the werewolf fight or gathering allies for the Bodhi fight in BG2, but these are extremely minor and also rare. The point that Rake was making was that the C&C in the BG games is minor, not nonexistent. There definitely is some C&C, just not a lot and not on a major scale.

The level of C&C will determine the level of difference between your playthrough and mine. Minor footnotes like who helped you out on werewolf island don't really compare to being cut off from or given access to entire maps and quests and changing the world as you play the game based on decisions that I may have made and you didn't. Playing through The Witcher 1, for example, resulted in a noticeably different story than my friend's playthrough. I'm not a huge fan of the game, but it's a decent example of a somewhat recent game with some C&C. The optional choices you make can shape the story somewhat drastically.


Ok, agreed!
 

t

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
1,303
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Holy fuck, Vince, you really must be under a lot of stress lately to get into fights with Hover...
 

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