Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

[Ninjerk]

Give him a swirly, Jasede

 

[Dorateen]

Some memorable Choice & Consequence in cRPG history:

• Crusaders of the Dark Savant - choose who you align with and how you resolve the final encounter, yields different endings that will be reflected in multiple beginnings in Wizardry 8
• Might & Magic III - deliver the ultimate power orbs to the king of your choice, and see the other two vanquished, their castles in ruins
• Might & Magic VII - choose the next arbiter or Judge in Erathia, opens up the light or dark path, including closing out content or changing how dungeons are approached
• Temple of Elemental Evil - how you construct your party decides starting location and opening vignette

 

[hiver]

Holy fuck, Vince, you really must be under a lot of stress lately to get into fights with Hover...

Some people have smoke breaks. I have Codex breaks.

He is not going into fights with me. I am going into fights with him.

Because he splurges ridiculous things he cannot defend with anything and then tries to cover it up with more raging blatant fallacies.

He made a review proclaiming w2 a great and awesome game, never actually explaining why with a single sentence. Instead just writing a bunch of declaratory senseless statements he cannot defend in any way.
When pressured he cannot reply to a single criticism about it with anything but more fallacies, strawmans, ad himinems, shifting goal posts, or simply sticking head into sand.
The usual VD discussion style he always repeats.

When pressured more he comes down to "but i enjoyed it" as the reason why it is good, which is literally the mindset of any mass market retard, (that these forums presumably hate and pretend to be different from) not to mention completely insane.

- of course one can like or enjoy anything, but that is not a measure or proof of quality. I for example liked skyrim in some ways (worst example i can think of) as some easy superficial walking simulator i can loose time in, but would never call it actually a good game. -

VDs logic would mean that Skyrim or Oblivion is actually a great and awesome game, that F3 stupid shit is all good, that doing whatever atrocity is just fine and awesome - because someone likes it. Its the death of reason and complete retardation.

All that, because he cannot actually defend his proclamations about w2.


Yet he will be among the first to criticize someone else for doing those same fallacious things.

So he is not only stupid, but a raging hypocrite.

Yet because he has that false polite writing style, some of you poor fucks brofist him
And so complete the full circle of utter and complete retardation.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You're a zealot, hiver, righteous and narrow-minded. You're convinced that you're right and smart, which makes everyone who disagrees with you wrong and stupid by default. You've even convinced yourself that going overboard with insults is ok (which is what makes people laugh at you and point fingers) because your "victims" deserve it. It would be fine if you were 14-15 (meaning it's a phase), but I suspect that you're a grown (and delusional) man.

I explained my opinion both in the review and the subsequent discussions. You rejected it all because you *know* that the game was bad, thus no arguments to the contrary could ever exist.

I explained that all reviews are "I liked or disliked the game, here is why". You rejected it because subjective opinions (even those backed by hundreds of people here) are a heresy. There is absolute truth and its name is hiver. How can a game be good when you - the amazing, infallible hiver - has decreed that it's bad?

 

[hiver]

same shit again...

You're a zealot, hiver,

Youre a cantaloupe

righteous and narrow-minded.

ad hominem,

You're convinced that you're right and smart

ad hominem, strawman,

which makes everyone who disagrees with you wrong and stupid by default.

Strawman (you are wrong and stupid by your own words, btw)

You've even convinced yourself

telepathy... strawman?

that going overboard with insults is ok

Strawman

(which is what makes people laugh at you and point fingers)

those are not people but cheap superficial morons who fall for superficial "nice writing" style regardles of its actual meaning.

Im simply not a hypocrite like you. Or them.

You speak ugly shit to me, i speak ugly shit to you. Balance.

because your "victims" deserve it

False self-victimization fallacy.

It would be fine if you were 14-15 (meaning it's a phase)

You mean something like saying that enjoyment of something is the measure of quality and then failing to comprehend when i ridicule you that you are then a Biliber?

but I suspect that you're a grown (and delusional) man.

I would be delusional if i thought the same stupid shit you do.

I explained my opinion both in the review and the subsequent discussions

You explained nothing but only made many empty statements just like this one, over and over and over again.

You rejected it all because you *know* that the game was bad,

Strawman.

thus no arguments to the contrary could ever exist.

I was asking for some but none ever appeared except - "i enjoyed it" - literally.

And i can quote that, unlike you.

I explained that all reviews are "I liked or disliked the game, here is why".

where was that why in your explanations?

You rejected it because subjective opinions (even those backed by hundreds of people here) are a heresy.

Strawman - blatant lie.

Plus a fallacy by popularity.

There is absolute truth and its name is hiver.

i wish....

but its only another strawman - ad hominem.

How can a game be good when you - the amazing, infallible hiver - has decreed that it's bad?

now you can complain that i took your post apart.

 

[Dreaad]

It's insane, half the threads I go to eventually get invaded by hiver and Vault Dweller. What follows is some unending, apocalyptic, internet warriors battle. Strawmen being deployed and killed en masse, new weapons are developed and countered, ad hominem missiles, burden of proof artillery, tu quoque gas, ever shifting goal posts and war aims. Each conflict only increasing the grudge level. The fight never ends. War, war never changes.

 

[hiver]

Its a Blood war, ffs... how many quips that turn out to be true do i have to make about it...

And yes, VentilatorOfDoom the dimensional anchor had several funny meanings, not just "hey look at DnD had all this cool stuff" but i hate when i have to explain all my jokes.
but i thought the rest were good too...

 

[Modron]

It's insane, half the threads I go to eventually get invaded by hiver and Vault Dweller. What follows is some unending, apocalyptic, internet warriors battle. Strawmen being deployed and killed en masse, new weapons are developed and countered, ad hominem missiles, burden of proof artillery, tu quoque gas, ever shifting goal posts and war aims. Each conflict only increasing the grudge level. The fight never ends. War, war never changes.

What we need to do is start a go fund me for plane tickets, this thursday Hiver vs Vault Dweller in the thunderdome.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

But will Hiver make an appearance as a secret 'Easter egg' foe in AoD?

 

[hiver]

But will Hiver make an appearance as a secret 'Easter egg' foe in AoD?

No, but a certain former vice president of sales will appear in "Sol the proverbially good science fiction game" i can guarantee you that. (if the game ever comes to be)

It's insane, half the threads I go to eventually get invaded by hiver and Vault Dweller. What follows is some unending, apocalyptic, internet warriors battle. Strawmen being deployed and killed en masse, new weapons are developed and countered, ad hominem missiles, burden of proof artillery, tu quoque gas, ever shifting goal posts and war aims. Each conflict only increasing the grudge level. The fight never ends. War, war never changes.

What we need to do is start a go fund me for plane tickets, this thursday Hiver vs Vault Dweller in the thunderdome.

I wish...


What was this thread about? Oh... ok...

Talking about writing styles and superficiality of some cretins, we can see a great example in reactions to this pretty good review... where many (or is it actually some?) posters are criticizing it because of tone or style of wording or some fairly meek expressions - even if they say they agree with its points and facts. (presumably, only they dont but they cant claim that)

Isnt that just pathetic and disgusting...?
And its nothing more then an emotional blackmail, pressure to get someone to write differently according to their own personal preference - while completely disregarding the content and facts.



However, when the baatezu and his lemur publish their review that will claim that PoE is good, if they base such proclamations on actual facts about the game i wont consider it wrong or incorrect because the game does have some good bits in it, although i wont agree that it all comes together in a way that is actually good. But if they base their praise on incoherent fallacies and empty declaratory statements they cannot defend or explain... and if they return the fire with strawmans and ad hominems then things will go down the different road.

And isnt that as simple as something can be?

 

[Reject_666_6]

Behead those who insult C&C.

 

[Ninjerk]

It's insane, half the threads I go to eventually get invaded by hiver and Vault Dweller. What follows is some unending, apocalyptic, internet warriors battle. Strawmen being deployed and killed en masse, new weapons are developed and countered, ad hominem missiles, burden of proof artillery, tu quoque gas, ever shifting goal posts and war aims. Each conflict only increasing the grudge level. The fight never ends. War, war never changes.

War HAS changed. It's no longer about mondblutism, C&C, or plot-gating. It's an endless series of proxy arguments, fought by Obsidian fangays and thread merges. War, and its consumption of logic, has become a well-oiled machine. War has changed. ID tagged combatfags carry ID tagged weapons, use ID tagged ad hominems. Nanomachines inside their bodies enhance and regulate their retardation. Genetic control. Information control. Emotion control. Battlefield control. Everything is monitored, and kept under control. War has changed. The age of deterrence has become the age of control. All in the name of averting catastrophe from weapons of mass retardation. And he who controls the forum, controls history. War has changed. When the battlefield is under total control, sperging... becomes routine.

 

[Roguey]

In 2003, had Sawyer even begun to develop his philosophy WRT player experience?

http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=7141

I have an inexplicable desire to take convoluted mechanics and make them elegant. Seeing GURPS throwbacks in Fallout makes me cringe to this day. If you enjoy game systems where armor both makes you more difficult to hit and reduces damage against you, I'm very sorry, but please throw yourself into a volcano.

So many grogs were very upset over the great small guns/big guns/energy weapons merge in VB.

Bonus quotes

I'd certainly love to play more Fallout games. I'd like to be a part of a future Fallout team. Hopefully it will one day wind up with a publisher who understands the potential that it has. That is to say that its potential, while not huge, occupies a very specific niche that can still do very well commercially - without jacking up the elements that make it what it is.

Where do you see computer RPGs going?

Straight to hell. There are very few companies making high-profile PC RPGs these days. Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S. that I can think of. European companies seem to be one of the only bastions of hope. There are exceptions, of course, but I just don't see a lot of buzz for anything new these days. I predict that we may go through another dry spell, followed by a new wave once someone realizes that no one is making any high-profile PC RPGs.

 

[Ninjerk]

In 2003, had Sawyer even begun to develop his philosophy WRT player experience?

http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=7141

I have an inexplicable desire to take convoluted mechanics and make them elegant. Seeing GURPS throwbacks in Fallout makes me cringe to this day. If you enjoy game systems where armor both makes you more difficult to hit and reduces damage against you, I'm very sorry, but please throw yourself into a volcano.

So many grogs were very upset over the great small guns/big guns/energy weapons merge in VB.

Bonus quotes

I'd certainly love to play more Fallout games. I'd like to be a part of a future Fallout team. Hopefully it will one day wind up with a publisher who understands the potential that it has. That is to say that its potential, while not huge, occupies a very specific niche that can still do very well commercially - without jacking up the elements that make it what it is.

Where do you see computer RPGs going?

Straight to hell. There are very few companies making high-profile PC RPGs these days. Troika is one of the last pure PC RPG developer in the U.S. that I can think of. European companies seem to be one of the only bastions of hope. There are exceptions, of course, but I just don't see a lot of buzz for anything new these days. I predict that we may go through another dry spell, followed by a new wave once someone realizes that no one is making any high-profile PC RPGs.

Any way to tell when that was posted? The page source has an address with "/1999/" in it, but that's the only obvious reference to a year with potential (you can't access any thread associated with it from that page).

Seems he was arrogant before he had done anything to speak of, no?

 

[RK47]

Prosperize VD & Hiver

 

[hemtae]

Any way to tell when that was posted? The page source has an address with "/1999/" in it, but that's the only obvious reference to a year with potential (you can't access any thread associated with it from that page).

Seems he was arrogant before he had done anything to speak of, no?

Going through the content IDs this is the article directly before it and the earliest I can find about it in a cursory google search is 2004.

 

[Tzaero]

Prosperize Hiver

Do it. You know you wanna.

 

[tuluse]

Any way to tell when that was posted? The page source has an address with "/1999/" in it, but that's the only obvious reference to a year with potential (you can't access any thread associated with it from that page).

Seems he was arrogant before he had done anything to speak of, no?

Going through the content IDs this is the article directly before it and the earliest I can find about it in a cursory google search is 2004.

Wayback machine first archive of it is June 28 2004

https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=7141

 

[Blaine]

I'm not surprised to read that Josh was proving himself an arrogant prick and ignorant of tabletop mechanics as far back as a decade ago. In most systems featuring mundane (as in no built-in force fields, displacement fields, etc.) armor mechanics that incorporate both damage reductions and to-hit difficulty modifiers, the to-hit modifiers simulate and abstract an attack being stopped by the armor in its entirety.

It's especially funny to see him badmouth GURPS in light of his recent "magnum opus."

 

[zero29]

...the to-hit modifiers simulate and abstract an attack being stopped by the armor in its entirety...

hardcounter detected, please use damage threshold capped at 85% for that

 

[Grinning Reaper]

Any way to tell when that was posted? The page source has an address with "/1999/" in it, but that's the only obvious reference to a year with potential (you can't access any thread associated with it from that page).

Seems he was arrogant before he had done anything to speak of, no?

I'm not surprised to read that Josh was proving himself an arrogant prick and ignorant of tabletop mechanics as far back as a decade ago. In most systems featuring mundane (as in no built-in force fields, displacement fields, etc.) armor mechanics that incorporate both damage reductions and to-hit difficulty modifiers, the to-hit modifiers simulate and abstract an attack being stopped by the armor in its entirety.

It's especially funny to see him badmouth GURPS in light of his recent "magnum opus."

It's funny to see you guys calling Sawyer an arrogant prick for critically discussing RPG mechanics ten years ago, even better that you note "before he had done anything to speak of." The irony is apparently lost on both of you as you yourselves spend years, you know, critically discussing and insulting RPG mechanics, and haven't made anything to prove you can do it better than the systems you insult.

 

[Roguey]

It seemed clear to me that interview was from early-to-mid 2004 on account of his mentioning having played ToEE, the cancelation of Van Buren, speaking of Troika in the present tense, and Bethesda not having Fallout yet.

In most systems featuring mundane (as in no built-in force fields, displacement fields, etc.) armor mechanics that incorporate both damage reductions and to-hit difficulty modifiers, the to-hit modifiers simulate and abstract an attack being stopped by the armor in its entirety.

This doesn't result in good gameplay.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39401-armor-abstractions-in-fallouts-special-game-system/

The armor system resulted in making characters invincible near the end of the game unless an armor-bypassing critical hit was scored, which often resulted in massive injuries/death.
...
I don't think anyone is arguing that AC isn't an abstraction, but I would argue that Fallout/SPECIAL's system of abstracting armor is unintuitive and forces characters to always adopt the heaviest armor unless they want to intentionally handicap themselves.

If I were coming to Fallout for the first time, my expectation would be that metal, Tesla, and power armor greatly increase protection but reduce my stealth abilities and my overall mobility. They're bulky, heavy suits of armor. I understand that PA is motorized, but I've always believed that the actuators in PA are there simply to give the person the great strength required to wear it, not to enhance movement speed and grace above and beyond their normal capabilities.

I would expect the leather and combat armors to protect me less, but to give few penalties to my stealth abilities or to my movement-oriented stats.

If we think of an attacker's skill check as determining their ability to hit a target of a certain size moving at a certain speed at a certain range, the properties of the target certainly factor into that calculation. I just don't think that the durability of the armor should have any positive effect on it.

But in Fallout, this isn't the case. Heavier armor both increases AC and increases damage reduction. It also has no penalty on stealth skills. On top of this, the DR/DT system combines to result in virtual invincibility in the late game unless the PC suffers the effects of a rare critical. To make matters worse, the gulf of difference between armor types is huge. If you fight Enclave troops in the best combat armor you can find, you will take massive damage compared to those wearing APA. Because of how good the endgame armor is, all of the enemy weapons have to be jacked up in power more and more just to make a little dent in the PC. Against all other armor types, it's Bedtime for Bonzo.

In my opinion (duh), the changes I wanted to make in F3 would have resulted in different character types having more options in the late game. Power armor variants were for people who wanted to be tanks. They could take a great deal of punishment, but they were pretty easy to see/hear coming and to hit. People in combat armor variants retained most of their movement/stealth capabilities, but couldn't quite take the heavy hits in extended combat.
...
I think your boundary between "working fine" and "broken" is a lot different than mine. Yes, the armor system does actually protect characters from damage, so I guess in that respect, it does function. With regards to supporting player choice, player intuition, and general game balance, I think it fails.

Ferret and I put a healthy amount of effort into re-working the armor system for F3. It seemed to hold up pretty well in our lil' demo. That was with no DR and no AC bonuses from armor.
...
DR is also something that I considered to be a systemic problem. To begin with, the idea behind the math doesn't seem sensible to me. Let's say a piece of armor has 30% DR and 0 DT vs. explosions. A grenade goes off next to someone wearing that armor. The attack does 3 points of damage. 30% of 3 is less than 1, so the target takes full damage. Another grenade goes off, doing 100 damage. The armor protects the target for 30 points of damage. The more damage done to the target, the better the armor protects. Huh?

My expectation would be that armor would ablate damage damage up to a certain point with the rest being taken by the person in the armor. E.g. I fire increasingly large bullets into a barrier. The first few are low calibre and they bounce off. The next few are higher calibre and they penetrate deeper as the calibre rises. When the bullet finally penetrates the barrier, the bullet retains whatever energy that remained after breaching the barrier. Ballistics is certainly more complex than this, but that's the general idea. There's a threshold of protection that body armor affords. Once an applied force has overcome that barrier, the body takes the rest. That's effectively what DT is.

In Fallout, the better suits of armor have both high DT and DR, and they combine to make even horrible wounds virtually insignificant. The PCs' hit points rise, their DRs rise, and their DTs rise. By the end of the game, they're harder to kill than a lot of D&D characters. A lot of that has to do with the armor.

Removing DR and revamping the stats for weapons and armor made a big difference in F3. High-calibre weapons like military-grade sniper and anti-materiel rifles were awesome against heavily armored targets. They weren't so great against groups. Low-calibre, rapid-fire weapons were great against lightly armored groups. The results seemed pretty sensible, but armored characters still gained great benefits.

Now you know which game has (what seems to me) sensible armor systems? Underrail.

Armor in Underrail reduces damage via one of two mechanics, percentage-based damage resistance or flat damage threshold (DR% / DT). When you take damage, your armor will either reduce it by the amount specified by the damage resistance or by the flat amount specified by the threshold, whichever is greater, not both.

Armor penalty is another important property of all armors. It reduces a percentage of your Stealth, Evasion, Dodge skills and Movement Points. The heavier the armor is, the more armor penalty it has. Total armor penalty is capped at 95%. Armor penalty does not reduce movement points provided by temporary bonuses, such as Sprint.

Wow, that sounds like what Josh was talking about.

 

[Blaine]

This doesn't result in good gameplay.

That's an opinion, not fact, and also depends on the system of rules in question. There are dozens of different tabletop core rules systems.

Josh's autism fails to take into account that regular bullets and knives really ought to bounce off of suits of super armor, and that even many powerful weapons will more often than not fail to penetrate it. The same applies to tanks in the real world, which generally require enormous ballistic weapons or specially-designed rocketry or mines to make a dent in.

These specialized weapons and ammo exist in Fallout/2, although their implementation is imperfect. Most implementations of everything in Fallout/2 were imperfect.

Now you know which game has (what seems to me) sensible armor systems? Underrail.

Wow, it's a rare creature: something we can both agree on.

Wow, that sounds like what Josh was talking about.

Nearly all of Underrail's combat mechanics are leagues ahead of Pillars of Eternity (not to mention crafting and exploration, two areas in which it truly blows PoE out of the water), as well as every Obsidian game ever developed and most cRPGs in general. It's better than a lot of tabletop RPG core rules systems, for that matter. I've played the game for 250+ hours at this point, and the mechanics are elegant, tight, sensible, and tough but fair.

Jawrshie boy could stand to take a page or two, or perhaps an entire book, from Styg.

 

[Athelas]

The armor system resulted in making characters invincible near the end of the game unless an armor-bypassing critical hit was scored, which often resulted in massive injuries/death.
...
I don't think anyone is arguing that AC isn't an abstraction, but I would argue that Fallout/SPECIAL's system of abstracting armor is unintuitive and forces characters to always adopt the heaviest armor unless they want to intentionally handicap themselves.

If I were coming to Fallout for the first time, my expectation would be that metal, Tesla, and power armor greatly increase protection but reduce my stealth abilities and my overall mobility. They're bulky, heavy suits of armor. I understand that PA is motorized, but I've always believed that the actuators in PA are there simply to give the person the great strength required to wear it, not to enhance movement speed and grace above and beyond their normal capabilities.

I would expect the leather and combat armors to protect me less, but to give few penalties to my stealth abilities or to my movement-oriented stats.

If we think of an attacker's skill check as determining their ability to hit a target of a certain size moving at a certain speed at a certain range, the properties of the target certainly factor into that calculation. I just don't think that the durability of the armor should have any positive effect on it.

But in Fallout, this isn't the case. Heavier armor both increases AC and increases damage reduction. It also has no penalty on stealth skills.

Simulationist detected.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

It's cute to see Josh talking about intuitiveness after making an attribute system in which optimally built mages are extremely strong and dexterous while fighters who rush into the thick of things are wise, charismatic and have great eyesight.