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Rome Total War II

ohWOW

Sucking on dicks and being proud of it
Dumbfuck Queued
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Brown, brown, brown. Even green, blue and red are brown.

And what the fuck with these face emotions? They seem so goddamn wrong.

I think their released video would have been better without the commentary.
That's what every game video would have been. Unfortunately, fuckers making modern games don't understand that and I've no idea why are they doing that.
 

Modron

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While I like the idea of multiple capture points, I doubt they are used to their full potential considering the game is not much of city-builder sim. It would be cool if siege battles did not just fail or succeed in a day, if invading armies could seize sections of cities and their facilities and then use them against defenders still holding other parts of the city. It would make for some actual epic turn-arounds and sieges.
 

Behelit

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I didn't mind the feces laden filter in this instance, it suited the mood. However dealing with this shit when you are on a grass plain during daytime will make me frown.

Multiple capture points, oh god yes. Though I am disappointed about the omission of women & children your soldiers can rape and butcher.

:killit:
 

titus

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Though I am disappointed about the omission of women & children your soldiers can rape and butcher.
To be fair, you do have the option to sack and depopulate cities when you conquer them. Just use your imagination.
 

Monocause

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While I like the idea of multiple capture points, I doubt they are used to their full potential considering the game is not much of city-builder sim. It would be cool if siege battles did not just fail or succeed in a day, if invading armies could seize sections of cities and their facilities and then use them against defenders still holding other parts of the city. It would make for some actual epic turn-arounds and sieges.

There weren't any city sections or facilities in the ancient times which you could use to ease your defeat of your opponents. Sometimes sieges took several years, but the actual part of people fighting in the streets - if it happened at all, and it was usually against the interest of both parties - was very brief. It's one of the most historically inaccurate things in core RTW gameplay that almost every siege ended with troops storming the city walls and duking it out in city centres. Historically it happened often that both sides lost more people to diseases and starvation than to combat.

I can recollect only one ancient siege where the battle on the city streets was actually decisive. Usually it was a fairly boring business taking months and sometimes years with one of the sides finally giving up (Romans were legendary for not giving up a siege and maintaining one IIRC for full seven years). Contrary to what you see in TW games, city walls were a really efficient form of defense right until advanced gunpowder weaponry rendered them obsolete.

I'd hugely prefer if the TW series depicting older times would present sieges as time and resource sinks which they were instead of full-scale battles. You siege a city, you must keep the sieging force supplied and reinforced for quite a lot of time, hoping for the enemy to surrender and keeping a look out for enemy reinfocements which could flank the besieging army.

I can't remember if it was a Greek or Roman story - or maybe it was a much more modern one - but one of the more brilliant commanders reportedly let an overwhelming enemy force inside the city he defended, pulling everyone out. The initial confusion of the invaders quickly ended as the troops started dispersing and rummaging around empty houses, looting the whole place; only then did the commander gave the signal for the defending force to storm out of hiding places, bar the gates again before reinforcements could get in and slaughter everyone who got inside. The invading forces were in complete disarray and fell rapidly, and the whole siege fell apart as the remnants of the invaders still outside the city gates were not numerous enough to successfully continue the siege and were thoroughly demoralised, first because they weren't allowed to loot the city and then because half the army apparently died out in a matter of hours. There are two morals from this story - one is that it was much more difficult to keep control of your army within city limits, another is that tight city streets are an impossible-to-maneuver deathtrap best avoided.
 

spectre

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There weren't any city sections or facilities in the ancient times which you could use to ease your defeat of your opponents
What about water supply and grain houses? And harbors to cut off the rest of the supplies? I agree with what you're saying on the whole, but this strikes me as a bit fishy.
 

Monocause

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There weren't any city sections or facilities in the ancient times which you could use to ease your defeat of your opponents
What about water supply and grain houses? And harbors to cut off the rest of the supplies? I agree with what you're saying on the whole, but this strikes me as a bit fishy.

I suppose such stuff could matter if the city in question was large enough, but huge cities were a rare occurence in ancient Europe. Water supply was mostly natural - since most cities were built along river banks - and food stores were likely to be organised in very well defended places as at some point the besieged folk also had the angry starving citizens to contend with. I think you're overestimating the infrastructure of ancient cities. Rome itself was an exception at that time, not a rule, and its most glorious form would be considered a large city even in modern times.

A naval blockade was a given if an important supply line went through the water. You didn't need to control the harbor to cut off the supplies. Most of the time, however, there simply were no supply lines. Keep in mind that most of the Rome's enemies were rather isolated communities - and even if they were part of some kingdom or empire, ancient logistics and means of communication often meant that the defending party had to fend for themselves. When it came to more powerful local states Rome often subdued them through diplomacy and powerplay rather than through flashy and incredibly costly sieges to the enemy's capital. Carthage's destruction shouldn't be considered in any way a highlight of the Roman way of doing things and IIRC the fact it was completely destroyed was due to internal Roman politics, not due to necessity or any rational benefit.

Also, continuing to defend a siege after a part of the city fell would be a truly desperate measure and, contrary to hollywood productions, people had common sense and if surrender would increase chances of survival, they would often do it. Both Roman and Greek histories are full of cowards, turncoats, overly ambitious traitors and people who don't want to die and will do whatever it takes to keep on living. When reading some historical accounts I often had the feeling that for a modern, post-nationalistic man it's much easier to relate to pre-nationalistic ancient people than to our forefathers who died in meaningless trench battles a hundred years ago.

Romans were building proper PR for sieges for centuries too. Back when they were subjugating the Italian Peninsula they built quite a naughty reputation among the hundreds of locals tribes and communities. If they surrendered immediately they would be spared, if they would struggle they would be decimated, and prolonged resistance could prompt the Roman army, depending on the consul leading them, to burn the place to the ground and slaughter all who weren't lucky enough to run away. It shouldn't be a surprise that most of the locals opened the gates and disarmed themselves as soon as it was apparent that the Romans are coming.
 
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Brayko

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Contrary to what you see in TW games, city walls were a really efficient form of defense right until advanced gunpowder weaponry rendered them obsolete..

I fail to see how hard it is to starve the fuckers out like Grant did at Vicksburg in far less than 7 years...without using any gunpowder which he had plenty of.
 

Monocause

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Brayko:

Creating a tight circle through which nobody would slip past around the besieged place was more demanding in the ancient times, one of the reasons being insufficient ranged weaponry which increased the manpower demand for such a task. Also, I read at Wiki that Grant had 70k troops, double the size of the defending garrison. Fielding such an army with ancient logistics was a grand undertaking and most of the ancient battlefields never have seen such numbers; for comparison a typical Roman consular army from the republican period (and this is the RTW period) had around 20k soldiers.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Personally I think that this is one of the things where gameplay trumps historical accuracy, because I just love storming cities and castles. I do agree that it's way too easy to breach walls in all TW games, though. Assaults should be more about siege ladders and siege towers and trying to breach the gates rather than shooting at solid stone walls with catapults for a couple of minutes.
 

Dayyālu

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I think I'll never obtain one little thing I'd love from Rome 2: dubbing in ancient languages. It would be a nice little touch, even if problematic in some cases.

About the sieges, I never liked how they became faster and faster in TW games : Shogun 2 sieges are nearly 'standard' tactical battles in a pretty map that limits cavalry, while Rome sieges where relatively 'slow' and permitted a lot of nice tricks for the defenders.

Surely, more 'realistic' sieges would need a working diplomacy and a good system to recreate food- water problems, epidemic diseases, etc.


Monocause: Some ancient wars where mainly siege affairs. The Imperial-Gothic war of the sixth century is a nice example, and with truly small numbers (we're talking of 10k men per side in a optimal situation). In most cases the cities/fortresses were occupied peacefully( by surrender-treachery-food problems), but in many others it was a quick, bloody affair. Procopius in his last book even describes some nice 'Total War'-like storming of a Persian fortress. So, sometimes that happened.
 

Monocause

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Monocause: Some ancient wars where mainly siege affairs. The Imperial-Gothic war of the sixth century is a nice example, and with truly small numbers (we're talking of 10k men per side in a optimal situation). In most cases the cities/fortresses were occupied peacefully( by surrender-treachery-food problems), but in many others it was a quick, bloody affair. Procopius in his last book even describes some nice 'Total War'-like storming of a Persian fortress. So, sometimes that happened.

Sure, it did happen sometimes and I'm not denying that. I'm pretty sure though that most of the sieges ended without combat in the streets and it would be nice if RTW would at least include such an option, other than "siege the place for X years and waste your time". There generally should be a surrender mechanic, in which the AI, if facing an overwhelming force, would surrender instead of combat and then you could show them leniency, ransom them or execute them. Your choices as a ruler would shape your reputation, and if you're bloodthirsty it'd be more likely that every foe will fight to the last man since they know they'd die anyway. Also, the AI would gauge the surrender chance based on the general it has attached to the force in question and his character traits. A brilliant strategist might attempt to fight an overwhelming force, a cowardly general might surrender easily even if actually having some chances of success etc.

It's kinda stupid that in TW games a 200-man strong garrison will still bravely try to defend against your doomstack of elite troops led by an elite general. Introducing such a mechanic would add a more historical factor while not damaging the game. Really, there's nothing fun about playing out these filler battles where you just steamroll a couple of regiments without taking losses. An alternative is using auto-combat but it ends with taking losses you realistically shouldn't expect.
 

Darklife

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One thing that could benefit from this new found focus on emotions and stuff, is conveying the atmosphere of the battlefield in regards to the general. In all of the TW's you basically play the role of some omniscient being, hovering above the battlefield, giving out orders to select troops with no delay whatsoever. It would be incredible if they would make it more about playing out the role of a commander and seeing it from his perspective and being subjected to the same limitations that he is.

For example your knowledge of the situation on the battlefield is based solely on what you see before you and what your runners tell you. You couldn't simply give out orders that would always succeed, but instead would be forced to rely on accident prone underlings. In this scenario, the decision to ride into battle would have huge consequences as you would effectively trying to steer its course and let things go their own way.

I know that RTW had that general camera, but that still isn't the same, when you have access to a minimap and everything.

Of course none of this will ever happen, but one can dream.
 

Rahdulan

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One thing that could benefit from this new found focus on emotions and stuff, is conveying the atmosphere of the battlefield in regards to the general. In all of the TW's you basically play the role of some omniscient being, hovering above the battlefield, giving out orders to select troops with no delay whatsoever. It would be incredible if they would make it more about playing out the role of a commander and seeing it from his perspective and being subjected to the same limitations that he is.

For example your knowledge of the situation on the battlefield is based solely on what you see before you and what your runners tell you. You couldn't simply give out orders that would always succeed, but instead would be forced to rely on accident prone underlings. In this scenario, the decision to ride into battle would have huge consequences as you would effectively trying to steer its course and let things go their own way.
I can't help but think this whole "look at that legionnaire's lip-sync, isn't it EPIC?" is kind of a misdirected effort to make everything more cinematic when in reality you spend most of the time during battles zoomed out and trying to see as much as you can of the battlefield, but I do also understand your perspective and I guess that's why they added the third-person camera even if it is just a camera mode. In other news, Spartan: Total Warrior needs a sequel. Badly.
 

Shannow

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One thing that could benefit from this new found focus on emotions and stuff, is conveying the atmosphere of the battlefield in regards to the general. In all of the TW's you basically play the role of some omniscient being, hovering above the battlefield, giving out orders to select troops with no delay whatsoever. It would be incredible if they would make it more about playing out the role of a commander and seeing it from his perspective and being subjected to the same limitations that he is.

For example your knowledge of the situation on the battlefield is based solely on what you see before you and what your runners tell you. You couldn't simply give out orders that would always succeed, but instead would be forced to rely on accident prone underlings. In this scenario, the decision to ride into battle would have huge consequences as you would effectively trying to steer its course and let things go their own way.

I know that RTW had that general camera, but that still isn't the same, when you have access to a minimap and everything.

Of course none of this will ever happen, but one can dream.
Go play Mount&Blade and leave TW alone.

Sick fucks with their dating sim shit... Stay off my lawn!
 

Commissar Draco

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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
I doubt solid and well made city/castle walls were even breachable by catapults, those were used to clear defenders, shatter the gates and starting the fires inside th city this is why gunpowder first as mines and explove devices more than siege guns was such a revolution. In TW games I prefer to send my spy and construct siege weapons anyway although added option to force the surrender through diplomacy with Relieve force and defendent/attacker stats checks would be great addition.
 

Darklife

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Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
One thing that could benefit from this new found focus on emotions and stuff, is conveying the atmosphere of the battlefield in regards to the general. In all of the TW's you basically play the role of some omniscient being, hovering above the battlefield, giving out orders to select troops with no delay whatsoever. It would be incredible if they would make it more about playing out the role of a commander and seeing it from his perspective and being subjected to the same limitations that he is.

For example your knowledge of the situation on the battlefield is based solely on what you see before you and what your runners tell you. You couldn't simply give out orders that would always succeed, but instead would be forced to rely on accident prone underlings. In this scenario, the decision to ride into battle would have huge consequences as you would effectively trying to steer its course and let things go their own way.

I know that RTW had that general camera, but that still isn't the same, when you have access to a minimap and everything.

Of course none of this will ever happen, but one can dream.
Go play Mount&Blade and leave TW alone.

Sick fucks with their dating sim shit... Stay off my lawn!

Your anger would actually make more sense if there was some great strategical or tactical component in the TW games, when in fact there is none of that whatsoever. Battles are trivial, as the AI can only keep its shit together when you are the one that is attacking, otherwise all you have to do is simply stand there and watch them hopelessly fling themselves at your lines. The campaign map is even worse, in order to achieve a semi realistic geopolitical environment, you have to put up artificial constraints for yourself, otherwise it becomes a boring map painter after the first 20 turns or so.

Face it, deep down underneath their impressive veneer the games are pretty much shit.
 
Self-Ejected

Brayko

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http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Factions

They just revealed...a Rome faction! Who would have thought Rome would be in TW Rome 2?

Furthermore, the player will choose to conduct the affairs of Rome as the head of one of three great Roman houses: The Julia, The Cornelia, and the Junia, each of which bring further economic, military and cultural benefits


So like, there's only 3 houses in Rome and you get to pick one that gives you certain benefits when playing as the whole country? Doesn't sound very historical or credible. In fact it smells of AAA streamlined shit.

MODS WULL FIX IT
 

Brinko

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Have they announced how religion will factor in to the game? Is it gonna be like in RTW where you just get specific bonuses and units or M2TW onwards where you have priests walking around talking about how great Thor is?
 

spectre

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So like, there's only 3 houses in Rome and you get to pick one that gives you certain benefits when playing as the whole country? Doesn't sound very historical or credible. In fact it smells of AAA streamlined shit.
Dude, this is total war. It had flaming pigs and elephant mounted cannons.
 

oscar

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I liked the religion system in Rome. Religions felt quite different and had some cool hidden effects like having lots of temples to Bacchus resulting in a high chance of characters there turning into hedonistic alcoholics.
 

Kukulkan

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Hopefully they'll implement the Barbarian Invasion religious system. Instead of the Christ religion though we would have different varieties of Paganism like Celtic, Punic, and Roman. There could some sort of option allowing assimilation of a neighboring culture's pantheon into your own.
 
Self-Ejected

Brayko

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So like, there's only 3 houses in Rome and you get to pick one that gives you certain benefits when playing as the whole country? Doesn't sound very historical or credible. In fact it smells of AAA streamlined shit.
Dude, this is total war. It had flaming pigs and elephant mounted cannons.

It doesn't hurt to assume that they were ashamed of these acts and got their shit into gear the next time around. TBH I was pretty excited for this game after the relative incline of Shogun 2, but this news kinda set me back a bit. Good thing Total War, like Elder Shits, has a very strong modding community and in particular I hope the EB crew does some fine work on this much later down the road.
 

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