Game News Pillars of Eternity Released

[naossano]

If you check the first few pages there is a lot of complain about Sawyer ruining combat tactics by relying on engagment. Those complainers might enjoy this mod.

 

[Jasede]

Why would anyone in their right mind dislike attacks of opportunity? Pretty much the greatest addition from 3rd edition.

All they have to do is make them work like in NWN 1. Exactly like in NWN 1.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

For further reading on this ever-popular topic

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/engagement-system-questions.98044/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ement-disabled-in-ie-mod-pros-and-cons.98258/

 

[Jasede]

Hmm, some good points in the opening posts there. But I'd still be against removing it; enemies should just be able to take an attack of opportunity and push past the melee guys. I dislike games where enemies do not focus my wizards / ranged dps / squishy rogues. Tanking should be hard and require constant position readjustment and kiting. They should just have been AoO. (Yes, I like those a lot.)

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Why would anyone in their right mind dislike attacks of opportunity? Pretty much the greatest addition from 3rd edition.

All they have to do is make them work like in NWN 1. Exactly like in NWN 1.

This. Maybe hit a teensy bit more, but this.

One of the reasons I like the NWN 1 combat system so much (although I've only done melee, and not much magic in NWN).

 

[Ramireza]

Why would anyone in their right mind dislike attacks of opportunity? Pretty much the greatest addition from 3rd edition.

Everyone that loves to use lame kite tactics. They have done this a trillion times in 167 IE RPG playtroughs and they cant imagine that there are better ways to design RTWP combat. After now about 70 hours i have to admit : Even PoE´s combat is better then all low-level (!) IE games (this except´s the encounters wich i didnt like in PoE).

Josh did a great job here.

 

[Naraya]

Why would anyone in their right mind dislike attacks of opportunity? Pretty much the greatest addition from 3rd edition.

Everyone that loves to use lame kite tactics. They have done this a trillion times in 167 IE RPG playtroughs and they cant imagine that there are better ways to design RTWP combat. After now about 70 hours i have to admit : Even PoE´s combat is better then all low-level (!) IE games (this except´s the encounters wich i didnt like in PoE).

Josh did a great job here.

I have never used lame kite tactics in BG/BG2. I didn't need to cheese. More to the point - I find it hard to imagine kiting in PoE. From what I see, enemies move a little bit faster than your characters and ranged weapons take a crapload of time to reload. It would be a total PITA to try and kite (or maybe I would just suck at it).

HOWEVER

I have disabled engagement in PoE almost immediately when this option was added. Why? Simply put, it is incredibly infuriating. It makes your engaged characters glued to a place (unless you want to be in a world of hurt) - this is very unfun. You can be promptly fucked up by pathing issues which the game suffers from. I prefer more dynamic fights. All things considered - disabling engagement allowed me to enjoy the combat in PoE, it's like a breath of fresh air. I can't thank Sensuki et al enough for making it possible

Of course, to each his own. I'm perfectly fine with it being an option - makes everyone happy.

 

[Ramireza]

It makes your engaged characters glued to a place (unless you want to be in a world of hurt) - this is very unfun.

Its realistic. Its dumb that you can run and engage every enemy in the middle of a fight without any disadvantages.

 

[RK47]

It actually makes it way too easy to setup the perfect beat down though.

 

[Naraya]

It makes your engaged characters glued to a place (unless you want to be in a world of hurt) - this is very unfun.

Its realistic. Its dumb that you can run and engage every enemy in the middle of a fight without any disadvantages.

Oh c'mon... Let's not get into this debate. I couldn't care less about 'realistic' in a fantasy RPG. Opinions, man!

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

It makes your engaged characters glued to a place (unless you want to be in a world of hurt) - this is very unfun.

Its realistic.

It's not even a little. Show me a melee fight where all the people involved are literally glued to the spot and if they try to move even a foot to the side their enemy hits them while still mid-swing against some other guy.

Not that realism even matters here, but the idea that the engagement system is realistic sends my sides into orbit.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

The engagement solved the problem BG had with combat becoming a clusterfuck and people running all over the place. While playing DA:O yesterday the Ogre boss suddenly decided to ignore my melee fighters and desperately tried to whack my wizard. I of course tried to get him out of the harm's way, while sending fighters after the agro. Entire thing looked like like a scene from The Benny Hill Show. So yeah it might not be super-realistic but it's more realistic than what was happening in IE games and DA. Personally I think that that engagement system needs two additions. The first one is ability to circle around opponent in order to gain a tactical advantage the second is to slowly back down from the attacker, not provoking attack of opportunity but at a cost of a reduced speed.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

It's not "more realistic" it's just "unrealistic in a way I like better." There's a difference.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Everyone that loves to use lame kite tactics. They have done this a trillion times in 167 IE RPG playtroughs and they cant imagine that there are better ways to design RTWP combat. After now about 70 hours i have to admit : Even PoE´s combat is better then all low-level (!) IE games (this except´s the encounters wich i didnt like in PoE).

Josh did a great job here.

Yeah, instead of kiting you just leisurely shoot them while they're bouncing themselves off your invincible fighter, great job indeed.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Well this is also correct. Fighter should be more like in older ADnD where he had an HP and damage dealing potential to back it up. I sometimes wonder why do enemies even engage fighter if he's not in a tight corridor. I mean you won't even scratch him him why he has the support of the party and he's just one guy, just go around him for god's sake.

 

[Jasede]

That's because if you try to walk past a guy with a sword hitting you at this very moment there's a really good chance he will stab you in the back the moment you try to move past him. Hence Attack of Opportunity. Or the Taunt system from MMORPGs, which I don't dislike at all. I think balancing hate vs dps is a fun mechanic that needs to be explored in an RPG.

 

[Tigranes]

balancing hate vs dps

Hate does not scale to your level

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

That's because if you try to walk past a guy with a sword hitting you at this very moment there's a really good chance he will stab you in the back the moment you try to move past him. Hence Attack of Opportunity. Or the Taunt system from MMORPGs, which I don't dislike at all. I think balancing hate vs dps is a fun mechanic that needs to be explored in an RPG.

I wasn't talking about "what if it was real" but actual combat in PoE. Enemies have absolutely no reason to swarm on the fighters like they do because he's not a threat by himself. Fighter was made useful mostly because of AI acting really dumb.

 

[Jasede]

That's the same as infinity engine. (higher levels)

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Actually melee enemies often just ignore your melee guys and go for your wizards, that was the main reason engagement system was introduced in the first place. My point is that fighter should have a way of actually stopping your foes other than 2 knockdowns and an impotent disengagement attack.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

That's the same as infinity engine. (higher levels)

In IE games high level fighters hit much harder and much faster compared to PoE so while mages/sorcerers/whatever are more dangerous there isn't this DPS/Tank division of roles, atleast not this pronounced.

What I mean is, I see more merit in focusing attack on fighters in IE games (even if it's still far from optimal target selection) than directing all your attacks on PoE's semi-invincible ticklers, speaking from enemy AI perspective.

 

[Jasede]

But.... mages did way more damage than fighters, hands down. So did clerics. Fighters in IE were ticklers, except when they were the enemy or buffed. But again, that's only really possible thanks to mages.

Well long story short, there should be Hate and AoO in games. And tripping. Definitely tripping.

 

[Melcar]

It's all shit regardless.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

But.... mages did way more damage than fighters, hands down. So did clerics.

More damage yes but wouldn't say way more damage, especially when fighters get HLAs or when it comes to BG2 kits like Kensai.

You could very well use Mages as merely a support class that casts Breach and Haste while fighters do the killing. In PoE if I tried to use Fighters as main source of damage (even buffed by spells) I'd fall asleep.

Fighters in IE were ticklers, except when they were the enemy or buffed. But again, that's only really possible thanks to mages.

They could also buff through items and potions but regardless they weren't ticklers in my experience, in ToB for example Korgan and Sarevok on their own could very quickly decimate nearly everything on their path and when it comes to lower level IE games like BG and IWD, bow using fighters ruled the day.

PoE fighters plink away at enemy health in comparison.

Well long story short, there should be Hate and AoO in games. And tripping. Definitely tripping.

Well, agree about the tripping part atleast. Add grappling as well.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

But.... mages did way more damage than fighters, hands down. So did clerics. Fighters in IE were ticklers, except when they were the enemy or buffed. But again, that's only really possible thanks to mages.

Well long story short, there should be Hate and AoO in games. And tripping. Definitely tripping.

Hasted, buffed fighters could really fuck the mages up if they got to them. In fact with all anti-magic protections and shit fighters did most of the killing in my playthroughs of BG. On the other hand, what the fuck is a PoE fighter going to do if you let him go to your mages? Hit them a bit with his pitiful might, and not too often since he's weighted down by his armor and probably using a shield? Since mages cast spells super-fast in PoE he probably won't even disrupt their casting. And seriously, fuck provoking, hate, aggro and all that MMO bullshit. Entire combat being built around a guy standing in one place calling monsters' mothers cunts is even more retarded than chases in IE games.