Game News Pillars of Eternity Released

[A horse of course]

This is not true at all. Freedom Force uses RTwP and for an RPG-like combat and it's fucking great.

Yes, and Freedom Force is much simpler, more shallow, and, as you say, "RPG-like" than a fully-fledged cRPG attempting to emulate tabletop-style rules systems. It crosses into Mass Effect, Secret of Mana, and Parasite Eve territory, and this is the small niche in which RTwP is mostly fine.

Freedom Force combat is far more complicated than Fallout or Shadowrun. I don't even like the combat in FF but it has vastly more depth - literally - than many favourites of the turn-based taliban.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Comparison to Fallout is not that fair since it's hard to find a game with more shallow combat than Fallout. It's literally:
-stay as far from enemies as you can, while still being able to shoot them
-ready the best weapon you have
-start shooting (shoot at the eyes if you can hit them)
-if something goes bad use a stimpack
-if despite doing all this shit you lost, buy better gear or seek easier combat encounter.
It baffles me that someone considered Fallout's combat superior in any way to Wasteland 2, yet it happened.

 

[Sensuki]

No shit. Why did you feel the need to post this? I wouldn't want to play a real-time without pause complex, party-based, tactical RPG, either. I recognize the difference, but it's irrelevant in this context.

A singular difference can have enormous implications, and that singular difference is critical to RTwP games. If the ability to issue commands while paused were removed, games like PoE would become borderline unplayable; slow-mo would help, but would merely serve to underline why the game should have been turn-based in the first place.

In other words, that "literally the only difference" is of enormous importance.

Yes, well there are a lot of people on here that think that RTwP 'simulates' turn-based, which I disagree with.

Personally I like both RTwP and Turn-based, and I don't think all RTwP games would be improved by being turn-based but rather more like real-time strategy games. Pillars of Eternity however, probably would be improved by being turn-based because the designers themselves design like they're designing a TB game anyway, so ...

 

[Curious_Tongue]

I like to play exclusively with the mouse.

RTwP is for players who hug the keyboard.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't use many keys for the IE games. Space and TAB mostly, and I could bind those to mouse4/5 if I wanted.

 

[Irenaeus]

I use space, tab and alt. Oh, and C, H, J and I.

 

[Sensuki]

yeah in the Icewind Dales you use ALT as they separated it from TAB. And yeah C, I etc too

 

[naossano]

Only use space for pause.

 

[Blaine]

Sensuki
The real issue is that the bulk of cRPGs, and especially IE-style cRPGs, that could have had outstanding turn-based combat were instead saddled with RTwP. You don't have much to compare with other than X-COM, Jagged Alliance 2, and so on, and those aren't truly RPGs.

Let's have a look at the Codex's Top 50 cRPGs, shall we? http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codexs-top-50-crpgs-results-and-reviews.89680/

Of the first 25 on that list, 10 are RT (kek), 7 are RTwP, and 8 are TB. Of the turn-based games, Fallout and Fallout 2 certainly have fairly simple and shallow combat by design as acknowledged by pretty much everyone; one is an "honorary" RPG (Jagged Alliance 2); the rest are dungeon crawlers, except for Betrayal at Krondor and Temple of Elemental Evil. ToEE had no noteworthy plot, story, characters, or atmosphere, so most people don't give a shit about it despite its combat system being quite well done.

Naturally, all of the IE games were RTwP. Only the Gold Box games can truly offer insight into how they would have played if they were turn-based.

That leaves Betrayal at Krondor as our best example of an all-around good turn-based cRPG, and BaK is a bit unique in how it does everything. Its combat, while good, is fairly simple IIRC. I loved the fuck out of that game as a kid.

Then there's Underrail, which has the best combat in any true cRPG created to date and is the shining example of why TB takes a shit on RTwP. Unfortunately, even Underrail has what can be considered a flaw: You can only control one character.

Divinity: Original Sin, while not one of the greats, shows that turn-based combat can really shine.

TL;DR: You think that RtWP stands on its own merits because you've never tasted of an IE-style game done in proper, magnificent TB. It's just never quite happened. Knights of the Chalice too had some serious flaws in its combat.

I'd also like to point out that almost every RTwP IE-style game has had immense flaws in its combat. You've bitched about PoE's at length. Torment's combat is widely panned as being banal shit. Baldur's Gate is a bit ho-hum because it's relatively low-level and therefore not very in-depth. The Icewind Dales both blow for reasons I can't quite remember, even IWD1. I've just been ignoring them for many, many years. NWN and NWN2 aren't really IE-style exactly, but regardless, neither are beloved for their amazing combat.

The one standout is Baldur's Gate 2, and that's pretty much it, which is why some asshole had to dig all the way back to Freedom Force from 2002 in order to defend RTwP's honor. BG2 would have been much danker had its combat been properly TB.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Blaine
Hey don't call me an asshole for not giving in to your blind hatred. RTwP combat has nothing to do with Codex's beloved devs being unable to utilize it properly. The problem with the games you've named wasn't that they were RTwP. Their problem is that they were turn-based in real time. A real-time game emulating a turn-based system and doing it badly. FF being released in 2002 doesn't change the fact that RTwP is good. You've just took a bunch of games, all of which made the very same mistake and blamed it on something else entirely. You could as well say that Barbarian class is at fault since a few RPGs that use barbarian class (Baldur's Gate, NVN, PoE) have bad combat, while many RPGs that didn't have barbarian class (like Wizardry and Goldbox games) have good combat, and after all that say that Diablo 2 having good combat somehow doesn't make your entire argument invalid because it's from 2000.

 

[Irenaeus]

You could as well say that Barbarian class is at fault since a few RPGs that use barbarian class (Baldur's Gate, NVN, PoE) have bad combat, while many RPGs that didn't have barbarian class (like Wizardry and Goldbox games) have good combat, and after all that say that Diablo 2 having good combat somehow doesn't make your entire argument invalid because it's from 2000.

Gud 1

 

[Blaine]

You've just took a bunch of games, all of which made the very same mistake

Yes, they all made the very same mistake: The combat was RTwP instead of TB.

You're not wrong in asserting that RTwP wasn't the primary reason a lot of the games we're discussing had lame combat, but then I'm not wrong, either: Neither you nor Sensuki really have a good basis for comparison, and to be fair, I really don't either. We've never gotten an all-around excellent complex, party-based, turn-based cRPG. None of those factors have ever come together all at the same time. It's just never happened.

Biodrones and Obsidrones favor RTwP combat, by the way.

My hatred definitely isn't blind, since I've put probably thousands of hours into RTwP games over the decades, including almost everything on that toplist. I also played Freedom Force ages ago, but barely remember it. I may or may not return to it to verify your claims.

I'm hoping Torment: ToN will be some kind of hallelujah moment for the genre: great story, writing, characters, atmosphere, exploration, AND solid, enjoyable TB combat, though I doubt it will be super-complicated and deep since it's deemphasized.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Blaine
I don't really know if we don't. FF does RTwP and plays much, much better than IE games and PoE. Mostly because it's not a turn-based game forcibly made real-time for some reason but because it's a real-time game with pause added for better control. Characters don't zip around the screen like in IE games because their speed is properly adjusted, they don't awkwardly wait between hits like in IE and PoE because attack speed was handled by using longer and shorter attack animations, battlefield doesn't look like clusterfuck because effects were prepared with real-time in mind, it even has terrain destruction. I mean sure, you could say that it's not a real RPG, but it has buffs, debuffs, AoE, elemental damage, mana bars, character creation etc, it just lacks exploration, proper inventory, freedom and cnc. None of which if implemented would make the combat system stop working. It's hard to imagine a true RPG using the very same system not turning-out good.

 

[Daedalos]

Just give me a good SCI-FI cRPG..

A cRPG with top notch grafix iso-metric (See stasis), top notch audio work (music / voicework), top notch mechanics and systems, top notch item system and balance, top notch turn-based combat, top notch sci-fi story telling in a complex multi-facetted universe with plenty of C&C and worldbuilding.. (Yes, I already bought and played Underrail, it's pretty neat)


I gief ju all my moni ;_;

 

[Jasede]

Yes, please, give me the perfect game, why is it so hard to make the perfect game? I just don't understand why it's so difficult to make a game that is the best of everything. A game like that I would gladly pirate.

 

[Raapys]

I agree with Jasede. I would rate the perfect game 9/10 though.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

To be honest all I want from an RPG is a more advanced Princess Maker, with dialogue trees and shit. This game has unlimited potential and is mostly played by perverts who get off from rising an 8 years old to be a total slut. A true tragedy of our times.

 

[Blaine]

Yes, please, give me the perfect game, why is it so hard to make the perfect game? I just don't understand why it's so difficult to make a game that is the best of everything. A game like that I would gladly pirate.

It doesn't have to "perfect," you shit. It just needs to not suck ass in one or two aspects. There are many games that do everything they set out to do well, but few if any of them are cRPGs.

 

[tuluse]

IE games weren't simulating a turn based system in real time. AD&D is phase based in the rule book.

 

[Jasede]

Yes, please, give me the perfect game, why is it so hard to make the perfect game? I just don't understand why it's so difficult to make a game that is the best of everything. A game like that I would gladly pirate.

It doesn't have to "perfect," you shit. It just needs to not suck ass in one or two aspects. There are many games that do everything they set out to do well, but few if any of them are cRPGs.

I was making fun of the unrealistic comment above me you illiterate shitlord.

 

[Blaine]

I was making fun of the unrealistic comment above me you illiterate shitlord.

SUCK MY COCK, FAG!

 

[Jasede]

Okay! Mmm, slurp, glorb~

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

So that's what the most prestigious RPG website considers the finest role playing game.

 

[Sensuki]

Sensuki
TL;DR: You think that RtWP stands on its own merits because you've never tasted of an IE-style game done in proper, magnificent TB. It's just never quite happened. Knights of the Chalice too had some serious flaws in its combat.

And you have never tasted a proper RTwP game. I believe the correct way to go is to borrow as much as possible from the RTS genre as that's where the best real-time combat is. Aarklash Legacy kind of did, but there's too much MMO in there as well and that makes the game quite repetitive and run out of steam very quickly. But as far as combat gameplay feel goes - it's bang on.

The closest we have to that is the Infinity Engine games, which were developed with an RTS Prototype engine (The Infinity Engine).

Pillars of Eternity could have had good combat but the devs must think good combat means make some decisions before combat starts and then stand still spamming per-encounter abilities and shit. nope.avi

Just like TB games should be looking at turn-based strategy games like JK2, RTwP games should be looking at RTS style combat IMO.

 

[tuluse]

Pillars of Eternity could have had good combat but the devs must think good combat means make some decisions before combat starts and then stand still spamming per-encounter abilities and shit. nope.avi

Ironically isn't this exactly what Josh was trying to "fix" from IE games, where 90% of the decision making was pre-battle (buffing)?