Game News Pillars of Eternity Released

[Jasede]

But isn't that what you guys -want-? A system that makes it so fighters can actually pin monsters down, rather than just let them walk past them like in the IE games?

 

[Sensuki]

If you want to pin something down, use a fucking disable/cc - you don't need a fucking autonomous system for it.

Engagement and AoOs are fucking terrible in real-time games - get the fuck back to turn based systems with shared AP for movement and actions where you belong.

The designers who bring these systems over into real-time games should be shot.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

But isn't that what you guys -want-? A system that makes it so fighters can actually pin monsters down, rather than just let them walk past them like in the IE games?

Thing is, I didn't really have a problem with enemies walking past my fighters and attacking mages (or squishes or whatever that retarded term is) because:

-Mages had actual protection spells in IE games, even something very basic like Mirror Image and Stoneskin did a great job.

-As I mentioned previously, fighters hit hard in those games. If a melee enemy decides to go and try to hit through my mage's protections, he won't last long against my Kensai with Staff of Striking or something wailing at him.

-Enemy AI would still usually target a char that attacks them in melee.


And now we have a solution to a problem I didn't have that is detrimental to my gameplay as it makes combat static and repetitive. That said, If a pin-down system was a necessity I'd give Fighter an ability (exclusive to him) that allows him to lock down one opponent for a limited period of time and/or an aura that slows down enemies that are in his zone or something. Also I'd keep flanking the way it's implemented in PoE.

 

[Jasede]

I promise you, if we all wrote down what exactly we'd like or expect we'd get as many different opinions as posts. So that leads to an interesting question - if you can't make everyone happy, why think about it in the first place? Just go with a system you'd want to play, that's all.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

But isn't that what you guys -want-? A system that makes it so fighters can actually pin monsters down, rather than just let them walk past them like in the IE games?

Pinning down is OK, all the stupid "provoke" abilities that make sentient beings behave like robots are not. I'm also for engagement. My point is that engagement at this point in PoE works only because of bad AI. In most of my battles I send Eder forward and enemies swarm around him despite the fact that it is the single worst thing they can do at that moment since Eder doesn't have enough damage-dealing potential to be a threat and should better be left ignored. He won't deal anyone meaningful damage and he won't take any meaningful damage, so why bother with him if you don't have to. The last battle was the best example. In the first stage most of the party was whacking the boss, while one summoned beetle was holding off a statue and Eder was holding off another statue. There was hoever no point in them doing it. They had shitloads of HP, and Eder's disengagement attacks weren't a serious threat compared to the rest of my party. Right now fighters IMO need: higher damage dealing potential, more disables, and especially a disabling AOE disengagement attack. Perhaps even an attack that makes enemy rooted in one place. The game would be better then. If anyone played a rogue in early stages when party consisted of Eder, Aloth and a PC then the most likely strategy when fighting a single strong enemy was be Eder taking hits, rogue hitting the same enemy, and Aloth providing disables and damage spells. This also shouldn't take place without the AI playing bad on purpose. AI should ignore Eder and whack the rogue since it can do so without disengaging the enemy. That's why warrior needs another ability. Shielding allies. It should make fighters take hits for allies that are attacked by the enemy they are engaging, or simply not allow attacks of other allies when engaging the fighter.

 

[The Bishop]

I don't understand this thing about fighters doing no damage. My damage focused 19 mig 19 dex fighter is order of magnitude ahead of anybody else in the party on damage dealt. Fighters are literally swimming in damage/dps leveling options.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I promise you, if we all wrote down what exactly we'd like or expect we'd get as many different opinions as posts. So that leads to an interesting question - if you can't make everyone happy, why think about it in the first place? Just go with a system you'd want to play, that's all.

Sure, best games are made that way anyway.

 

[tuluse]

But isn't that what you guys -want-? A system that makes it so fighters can actually pin monsters down, rather than just let them walk past them like in the IE games?

I wanted a system where walking speed would be adjusted based on proximity to characters/monsters.

 

[The Bishop]

Personally I like the way engagements work in principle. Several problems with current implementation are pretty annoying though. Sometimes you get a disengagement attack without your char stopping for engagement. Disengagement damage can be ridiculously disproportional as well. I had a beetle that typically does 20-30 damage to crit me for 150 in disengagement. Path finding can also make your stuck in a pack of enemies because your char decided to run out in a random direction instead the one you were choosing. No way of setting your characters to hold position also doesn't help. However, there is no excuse for any of that to continue to exist so I expect things to get better eventually.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Personally I like the way engagements work in principle. Several problems with current implementation are pretty annoying though. Sometimes you get a disengagement attack without your char stopping for engagement. Disengagement damage can be ridiculously disproportional as well. I had a beetle that typically does 20-30 damage to crit me for 150 in disengagement. Path finding can also make your stuck in a pack of enemies because your char decided to run out in a random direction instead the one you were choosing. No way of setting your characters to hold position also doesn't help. However, there is no excuse for any of that to continue to exist so I expect things to get better eventually.

Yeah, I like disengagement. I think its far more effective than AoOs for allowing you to use melee characters to establish a front line. Agree that the major issue is when pathfinding goes full retard and puts you into a bad engagement, but that's more of a pathfinding issue than an issue with the mechanic itself. Definitely agree that a hold position command is vital. Besides pathfinding problems and bad chasing, I have had no problems with engagement. The massive damage is a bit crazy sometimes, but I could live with it if we got a hold position toggle.

If engagement is fucking you over even when you don't have pathfinding issues, then maybe you should play around with the custom formations. I find having a front duo with feats/gear to engage 5-6 enemies to be pretty effective and not that hard to build. Couple that with a back line 3-4 tiles behind them and I'm usually pretty safe. Also the rogue's coordinated positioning, the fighter's grab and knockdown items and spells are usually adequate to clear enemies off your backline, so that's where the active abilities come into play.

 

[Septaryeth]

Paladins can do alot of damage and hold their ground at the same time, especially when wielding a two-handed weapon.
That's how I finally get my attacks pass some enemies with buffed up DR.

The game did spiced up the combat in certain dungeons with teleporting spectres.
At the first few encounters in the Eothas temple, I wasn't aware of it and Aloth died almost instantly.
Not saying all enemies should magically appeared in the middle of your group, but they can certainly try to build from that.
If I remembered correctly, they already have abilities and modals that reduce penalty from disengagement/lower hitting chance of attack of opportunity.
Having more skills that allow enemies to rush pass or move around your warriors will add some tension to your backline heavy hitters. (As long as they don't make it too...action-y.)
Also, as a player you can summon elements, undead etc in the midst of an enemy group to mess with their mages and priests, it would be nice seeing enemy AI doing that.

 

[Sensuki]

I promise you, if we all wrote down what exactly we'd like or expect we'd get as many different opinions as posts. So that leads to an interesting question - if you can't make everyone happy, why think about it in the first place? Just go with a system you'd want to play, that's all.

The main points here are (relative to engagement / enemies running past you in combat)

A) It was not like this in the Infinity Engine games (Engagement System)

B) This was not a problem at all in the Infinity Engine games, anyone who thinks it was is just shit at the game (and it was an easy situation to correct or control)

 

[Tigranes]

It wasn't a problem in IE. It also isn't a problem here.

Anyone whining about disengagement attacks 'killing them' or forcing them to 'stay still' is retarded. (It is true, of course, that POE combat doesn't use space like IE games at all, but that's down to a combination of things like lower movement speeds.)

 

[Sensuki]

You will get badly hurt or KO'd if you play like the Infinity Engine games.

The engagement and movement recovery slow system REALLY encourages you to move as little as possible in combat leading to anyone with any sense always setting up on every encounter first and positioning so that you only move initially, to move to new targets and to get in range to attack/cast spells. Incredibly rote and boring gameplay.

 

[RK47]

These are the typical combat situations I found. And the way I dealt with them is always the same every time with very little if any variations.
And yes, there were very few, if any disengagements. There is a reason why cipher is op. You can simply paralyze and make engagements moot to most low durability, high dps front liners. Not to mention wielding a spear against a 'Stuck' enemy makes poking them without retaliation.

Encounter 1

In the above, I forgot to swap back to Arbalest to have initial attack, and had rely on my Greatsword Rogue & Pike Barbarian to walk to the soft backline.
What does the tank do? Hug the 4 guys there. It's okay, there's no way they can kill him before my Barbarian and Rogue just butcher the Wizard and Ranger.
A lone fighter made it to the back line and got promptly charmed by the ever alert Cipher.

Encounter 2

In the above, I have everyone ready with ranged weapons and the game decides to throw me a freebie.
How the fuck is this even challenging at this point?

 

[thesheeep]

I don't know, playing for the first time, I find the encounters to be actually challenging (playing on Hard).
But I am just some hours in, so who knows what my opinion on that will be later...

It is certainly true, though, that it is fairly easy to pin enemies to your tank with little thought. In some setup, that is not the fault of the system (doors, small corridors), but in others, it is (open field, yet everyone decides to stick with your lowest-threat fighter).
Then again, if it was different, you would be running around with your mages all the time, while your fighters would chase those guys chasing your fragile casters. <Insert yakety sax music>
So... it is probably better the way it is.
It also happened to me a few times so far that enemies started pursuing the mage instead of the tank. Mostly happened with teleporting enemies.

Anyway... the music! For the last 15 years I thought BG soundtrack would never be beaten.
When I started PoE I was stuck in the main screen for 10 minutes just listening to the music before I clicked any button.
Well, I wouldn't say (so far) that PoE soundtrack is better than BG, actually, but certainly on the same level.

 

[Trash]

Thought I was getting pretty OP when I decided to go and check out that sacrificial pit.

 

[Tigranes]

You will get badly hurt or KO'd if you play like the Infinity Engine games.

The engagement and movement recovery slow system REALLY encourages you to move as little as possible in combat leading to anyone with any sense always setting up on every encounter first and positioning so that you only move initially, to move to new targets and to get in range to attack/cast spells. Incredibly rote and boring gameplay.

If any engagement system let you move around just like you do in IE games, why does that system even exist?

They needed to provide more abilities for both enemies and allies to control space - e.g. a proper Web spell, a proper Walls of [x] spell including ones that erect impassable barriers - and make the existing abilities that are meant to do this job actually work better - e.g. Rogue abilities.

 

[Sensuki]

If any engagement system let you move around just like you do in IE games, why does that system even exist?

I do not like zone of control systems in real-time games except where they make sense, such as the Total War series.

This system is the worst possible one they could use, it makes the gameplay feel nothing like the Infinity Engine games and quite frankly just adds another level of boredom/tedium to the gameplay.

However, even with both Engagement and Movement Recovery slow removed (IE mod) the gameplay still sucks horse dung.

Holy fucking christ, just let Josh Sawyer make his classless turn-based games and stop ruining the RTwP genre.

 

[Blaine]

RTwP doesn't qualify as a "genre" either literally or in principle.

In the case of the former, technically RTwP is a straightforward mechanical and/or presentational choice. You might as well classify isometric viewpoints or toolbars with lots of buttons on them as "genres" as well.

In the case of the latter, that being the principle of the thing, RTwP is an abomination—that, and a true bastardization—deserving no recognition or classification other than as an abomination and bastardization. Absolutely every cRPG on record featuring RTwP would have been improved had a turn-based system been used instead, and that includes Darklands. RTwP has a legitimate place in certain strategy games (Homeworld, Sim City) and as a sort of "helper system" in simple, usually first-person console action games with slightly complex character ability systems (Parasite Eve, Mass Effect, etc.), but that's as far as it goes. In practice, RTwP is a wholly different animal in those kinds of games, too.

In the context of complex and especially party-based cRPGs, the pressure to implement RTwP or even real-time combat systems was born from developer/publisher desire to make role-playing games more ACSHUNY! and VISCERAL! and REALISTIC!, thereby expanding the games' target audience to include impatient, retarded teenagers. This is decline seen in its purest form, one of the originals, an antediluvian beast so crafty and guileful that many Codexers have been hookwinked into nostalgia for it.

Don't be fooled: RTwP, better known by its true name PLAYERS WANT VISCERAL ACSHUN!, is right up there with its two companions: one being the ludicrous claim that 3D graphics are superior, and the other being the demand for voiceovers and CINEMATICS.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

This is not true at all. Freedom Force uses RTwP and for an RPG-like combat and it's fucking great. It also wouldn't be upgraded in any way if it was made into a turn-based game or if the pausa was removed. I encourage everyone talking shit about RTwP to try it. The problem of BG, NVN and PoE is not RTwP but the fact that they try to execute a turn-based systems in real time. Bioware can be understood - they want to bring ADnD to the SNES generation, and the results were fun, but wonky. Obsidian on the other hand cannot be excused. They were making a system for a real time game and still came up with one that would work best if it was turn-based. It wouldn't surprise me if nobody at Obsidian including Sawyer ever tried Freedom Force.

 

[Sensuki]

Absolutely every cRPG on record featuring RTwP would have been improved had a turn-based system been used instead, and that includes Darklands.

Nope.

Real-time with pause is just a real-time game that allows you to issue actions while paused. You can pause real-time games, but you can't issue actions while paused.

That's literally the only difference.

 

[Blaine]

Real-time with pause is just a real-time game that allows you to issue actions while paused. You can pause real-time games, but you can't issue actions while paused.

That's literally the only difference.

No shit. Why did you feel the need to post this? I wouldn't want to play a real-time without pause complex, party-based, tactical RPG, either. I recognize the difference, but it's irrelevant in this context.

A singular difference can have enormous implications, and that singular difference is critical to RTwP games. If the ability to issue commands while paused were removed, games like PoE would become borderline unplayable; slow-mo would help, but would merely serve to underline why the game should have been turn-based in the first place.

In other words, that "literally the only difference" is of enormous importance.

 

[Blaine]

This is not true at all. Freedom Force uses RTwP and for an RPG-like combat and it's fucking great.

Yes, and Freedom Force is much simpler, more shallow, and, as you say, "RPG-like" than a fully-fledged cRPG attempting to emulate tabletop-style rules systems. It crosses into Mass Effect, Secret of Mana, and Parasite Eve territory, and this is the small niche in which RTwP is mostly fine.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

This is not true at all. Freedom Force uses RTwP and for an RPGke combat and it's fucking great.

Yes, and Freedom Force is much simpler, more shallow, and, as you say, "RPG-like" than a fully-fledged cRPG attempting to emulate tabletop-style rules systems. It crosses into Mass Effect, Secret of Mana, and Parasite Eve territory, and this is the small niche in which RTwP is mostly fine.

Combat in Freedom Force is much less shallow than the one in Pillars of eternity. If RTwP was alright for a game where multiple characters, some flying use multiple abilities in 3 dimensional space I'm sure it would be just fine in a game where 90% of the time two tanks are get getting hit and 4 others deal DPS and sometimes cast a debuff, all on flat surface.