Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[bonescraper]

You should post that on the Obsidian forums to generate maximum butthurt.

I stopped giving a fuck. I'm totally indiffrent at this point. I kinda hoped Obsidian, of all developers, will manage to make a worthy IE successor. With Cain and Avellone on board they could take the best from ToEE, Arcanum, BG and Torment and make a RPG that would blow the Codex away forever, right? But it didn't happen. I just can't be aresed to give a fuck anymore.

I had to vent my frustration and disappointment here though. I wasted 160 bucks on this thing.

 

[Sensuki]

Sensuki, I don't understand whether you're saying bows are more powerful weapons than guns or that guns shouldn't be in PoE at all.

isn't a bullet's kinetic energy higher than that of an arrow? (it is, just look at how much energy the shooter's body absorbs in the form of recoil)

why is it so strange that firearms deal so much damage? maybe they fragment once they hit the soft tissue, arrows don't do that, there's your increase in damage for one

Sure that's realistic alright, but the aim here is not to be realistic, but to create interesting choices, and viability.

In the current system, there's basically zero point to use any other ranged weapons except arbalests and arquebuses.

They have superior first hit damage (important) and they have superior DPS, and they aren't that affected by DT.

Bows (haven't tried Crossbows yet) are shit, they don't do high damage and they are nigh useless on grazes. Sure they attack quick but a succession of fast attacks is not going to get you anywhere near the damage ranges you pull on the heavier duty ranged weapons.

Against 12 DT, A bow does less than 1 point of damage on pretty much every graze damage roll.

 

[Infinitron]

Sensuki, I don't understand whether you're saying bows are more powerful weapons than guns or that guns shouldn't be in PoE at all.

isn't a bullet's kinetic energy higher than that of an arrow? (it is, just look at how much energy the shooter's body absorbs in the form of recoil)

why is it so strange that firearms deal so much damage? maybe they fragment once they hit the soft tissue, arrows don't do that, there's your increase in damage for one

Why are you talking about realism in a PoE thread

He's saying guns are OP and need to be nerfed.

 

[bonescraper]

stuff

yeah, claiming that poe has less customization than the IE-games whose choices upon leveling up mainly consisted of clicking "accept" doesn't do much to dispel the sense that your post was brimming with righteous butthurt bro

Well, when they mentioned IWD among Torment and BG i kinda hoped they were thinking about the 3.5 mechanics. Because what else makes the IWD games stand out from other IE titles? Their focus on combat and combat XP gain?

 

[Grunker]

I stopped giving a fuck. I'm totally indiffrent at this point.

Your furious wall of text sure gave that impression, yep.

stuff

yeah, claiming that poe has less customization than the IE-games whose choices upon leveling up mainly consisted of clicking "accept" doesn't do much to dispel the sense that your post was brimming with righteous butthurt bro

Well, when they mentioned IWD among Torment and BG i kinda hoped they were thinking about the 3.5 mechanics. Because what else makes the IWD games stand out from other IE titles? Their focus on combat and combat XP gain?

What are you on about? The first IWD, also being IE-AD&D, has the "accept" level-ups as much as the other games. IWD2 solely has an attribute each 4 levels and a feat on that, and PoE's talents will be the equal of that.

I'm also disappointed by this customization, but your claim that it is somehow less than the IE-games is straight up bullshit. Alongside your other inaccurate claims your posts come off as butthurt, even with the criticism that both I and Sensuki agree with you about. It doesn't help your case when you make a furious RAEG-post after which you claim to be "totally indifferent."

 

[polo]

But think about bazookas, those things deal TONS of damage. I want bazookas. And romances, tons of romances.



On the serious side, % bonuses are shit. Its a really bad call.

 

[fanta]

RTS games all use flat bonuses for damage because it's balanced. I think using % here was a mistake.

That's not entirely true though. Take BW, which is probably the most balanced and yet fun game ever made. Marines do 6 dmg , +1 per upgrade level -- 17% per upg. Sieged siege tank -- 70 dmg, +5 per upg level for an increase of 7%. The damage scaling is stronger than flat but weaker than linear. It is worth noting that BW's armour system is exactly the same as PoE's flat DT, so damage systems are directly comparable.

It looks like Sawyer's approach to balance is the SC2/MMO one: make everything viable by making it not stick out too much from all the other choices. BW approach is so much better: make everything spectacularly imbalanced and change only if the game as a whole is negatively affected.

 

[bonescraper]

Your furious wall of text sure gave that impression, yep.

I'm indifferent, as in i don't care about the game anymore from this point. I am disappointed and i don't believe it will be changed and/or improved enough. I don't care how you rationalize shit design and incompetence. And i sure as hell won't post on Obsidian's forum. Is that clear enough?

but your claim that it is somehow less than the IE-games is straight up bullshit."

I didn't say that. I said it's lazy, and i said i don't like it. Regardless of IE implementation.

 

[Rivmusique]

Does anyone else feel that the the combat difficulty seems off? After a certain point on hard difficulty, it feels like I was not taking a lot of damage and I could just let my party auto-attack. I do not know whether the game resets difficulties or whether the enemy AI becomes confused by some patterns. Especially in the Dyrford ruins, I would have my fighter and priest line up at a door way, and then have my rogue or mage pull the group. I am starting to think that the enemy AI continues to chase the rogue/mage, but I have not confirmed it.

Yeah. I thought it was loading the game that might have been the cause for a bit, but I just did a playthrough where I went straight under the town with no saves/loads until the end battle. Noticed extremely low incoming damage from pretty much everything but the beetles. Maybe it just isn't tuned? When I went west I didn't 'feel' like the incoming damage dropped drastically (but the AI/pathfinding of some of those spirits made things easy, they wouldn't all come out of the room at once, would stick to the objects in the centre of the room), but I'll have to give it another go to be sure.

 

[Sensuki]

RTS games all use flat bonuses for damage because it's balanced. I think using % here was a mistake.

That's not entirely true though. Take BW, which is probably the most balanced and yet fun game ever made. Marines do 6 dmg , +1 per upgrade level -- 17% per upg. Sieged siege tank -- 70 dmg, +5 per upg level for an increase of 7%. The damage scaling is stronger than flat but weaker than linear. It is worth noting that BW's armour system is exactly the same as PoE's flat DT, so damage systems are directly comparable.

It looks like Sawyer's approach to balance is the SC2/MMO one: make everything viable by making it not stick out too much from all the other choices. BW approach is so much better: make everything spectacularly imbalanced and change only if the game as a whole is negatively affected.

That is a good point, but Pillars of Eternity uses a unified system with a percentile scaling for all damage. SC1 values are tweaked per individual unit. The aim of Pillars of Eternity is to make all classes viable. Starcraft units are imbalanced deliberately but they are controlled by three variables - resource cost, supply cost and time to build. Units are also expendable to some extent. I don't believe money is going to be an issue in Pillars of Eternity, and weapons do not break, and are not expendable. At the moment I am talking more about using a flat percentile damage bonus that affects everything, it doesn't scale well for weapon balance.

 

[imweasel]

I stopped giving a fuck. I'm totally indiffrent at this point. I kinda hoped Obsidian, of all developers, will manage to make a worthy IE successor. With Cain and Avellone on board they could take the best from ToEE, Arcanum, BG and Torment and make a RPG that would blow the Codex away forever, right? But it didn't happen. I just can't be aresed to give a fuck anymore.

I had to vent my frustration and disappointment here though. I wasted 160 bucks on this thing.

Don't worry, we'll get everything fixed.

It will be hard because of Sawyer's fucking huge ego, but not impossible.

I hate % increments, I just hope it isn't as boring as the last Avernum... "hey you found a better armor, it gives you 2% more defense. Aren't you happy with such an epic upgrade? Aren't you fucking excited to try that on?"

How's the itemization anyway? BG2 had IMHO the best itemization in any RPG ever, and I that should be taken into account when making a IE successor...

Oh god, the itemization in BG2. So good.



I really wish that Sawyer was a huge BG2 fan like me.

 

[Duraframe300]

I wonder if we'll get the first update today.

 

[Maculo]

I am not a fan of the % bonus either, but I think part of that problem is that it is always a flat increase. Assuming Sawyer keeps the %, I am hesitant to suggest a system that would not use a flat increase. For instance, I suppose it could have a diminishing returns as you get higher in a stat, which could potentially provide incentive to spread points. Then again, I am not sure that is inline with any IE game.

Yeah. I thought it was loading the game that might have been the cause for a bit, but I just did a playthrough where I went straight under the town with no saves/loads until the end battle. Noticed extremely low incoming damage from pretty much everything but the beetles. Maybe it just isn't tuned? When I went west I didn't 'feel' like the incoming damage dropped drastically (but the AI/pathfinding of some of those spirits made things easy, they wouldn't all come out of the room at once, would stick to the objects in the centre of the room), but I'll have to give it another go to be sure.

That lines up with what I have seen recently. Some of it is probably tuning and and bad pathing AI. I just know the skaen cultists feel incredibly lacking compared to the beetles and spiders.

 

[Grunker]

I'm indifferent, as in i don't care about the game anymore from this point. I am disappointed and i don't believe it will be changed and/or improved enough. I don't care how you rationalize shit design and incompetence. And i sure as hell won't post on Obsidian's forum. Is that clear enough?

Yes, it is clear that you are mad and anything but indifferent.

I didn't say that. I said it's lazy, and i said i don't like it.

IE-games were lazy? AD&D is lazy?

Like I said before, the lack of depth in each class is a probably more or less a direct result of the fact that the class diversity is so much higher than we're used to. It simply isn't possible to create a wealth of customization options for each class when you have so many classes that are so different from each other. A bad decision to put your work into class diversity over internal class customization IMO but certainly not "lazy." I have no idea what measure you use to qualify it as "lazy" except that you're angry and you need someone to blame.

 

[Frusciante]

Does anyone else feel that the the combat difficulty seems off? After a certain point on hard difficulty, it feels like I was not taking a lot of damage and I could just let my party auto-attack. I do not know whether the game resets difficulties or whether the enemy AI becomes confused by some patterns. Especially in the Dyrford ruins, I would have my fighter and priest line up at a door way, and then have my rogue or mage pull the group. I am starting to think that the enemy AI continues to chase the rogue/mage, but I have not confirmed it.

I think this is a bug. Had the same thing. Then later on also my fighter and rogue started doing insane damage and my main character was basically immortal because all attacks missed against him.

 

[Maculo]

I think this is a bug. Had the same thing. Then later on also my fighter and rogue started doing insane damage and my main character was basically immortal because all attacks missed against him.

I nearly forgot that, my characters seemed to do way more damage. I still do not have a handle on what is making that happen, whether that is flanking bonuses, bugged stats, or enemy types.

Edit: I know it is on purpose, but I feel the game would be more energetic with the scripted companions. Right now it feels bare-bones without them, and kind of like IWD with bugs and balance shenanigans (including the % bonus).

 

[Frusciante]

I think this is a bug. Had the same thing. Then later on also my fighter and rogue started doing insane damage and my main character was basically immortal because all attacks missed against him.

I nearly forgot that, my characters seemed to do way more damage. I still do not have a handle on what is making that happen, whether that is flanking bonuses, bugged stats, or enemy types.

I saw a post on the Obsidian forums about DT dropping to zero when loading a zone or save file.

 

[fanta]

That is a good point, but Pillars of Eternity uses a unified system with a percentile scaling for all damage. SC1 values are tweaked per individual unit. The aim of Pillars of Eternity is to make all classes viable. Starcraft units are imbalanced deliberately but they are controlled by three variables - resource cost, supply cost and time to build. Units are also expendable to some extent. I don't believe money is going to be an issue in Pillars of Eternity, and weapons do not break, and are not expendable. At the moment I am talking more about using a flat percentile damage bonus that affects everything, it doesn't scale well for weapon balance.

Who forbids tweaking damage per individual weapon: a Might point makes +1 dmg for a dagger, but a +5 dmg for a sledgehammer (or whatever values make sense)?

I do not mean that BW units are imbalanced before taking resource cost, supply cost and time to build into account. I mean they're imbalanced after all that. Take a Vulture. It's 75 minerals, builds extremely fast, is one of the fastest units in the game, can inflict more economic damage than it's worth in a few seconds and rapes both the Protoss and Zerg T1 units (which are mineral sinks) while being a mineral sink itself. You might say: "loloool", and you would be right. But wait, it also comes with three mines, every one of which can destroy a squadron of units ten times the worth of the whole Vulture.

But it works because Protoss and Zerg have ultra imba units too, and these units are entirely different. If Sawyer was designing BW, he'd nerf the Vulture and give a similar unit to both other races with minor +5% to dmg here, -4% to speed there. Similarly, the stats in PoE don't make characters that much different.

My -- and BW's point -- in a nutshell: make different things really different, and spectacular. But this of course opens up possibilities of spectacular fuck-ups too. What if someone chooses to fight mass Vulture with mass zergling? Or a 18 STR wizard? It's, like, a choice so it can't be wrong? That's the reason Sawyer will not do it.

 

[Grunker]

That is a good point, but Pillars of Eternity uses a unified system with a percentile scaling for all damage. SC1 values are tweaked per individual unit. The aim of Pillars of Eternity is to make all classes viable. Starcraft units are imbalanced deliberately but they are controlled by three variables - resource cost, supply cost and time to build. Units are also expendable to some extent. I don't believe money is going to be an issue in Pillars of Eternity, and weapons do not break, and are not expendable. At the moment I am talking more about using a flat percentile damage bonus that affects everything, it doesn't scale well for weapon balance.

Who forbids tweaking damage per individual weapon: a Might point makes +1 dmg for a dagger, but a +5 dmg for a sledgehammer (or whatever values make sense)?.

No one in theory, but that is not how PoE works. And it would be a shitton of work to tweak Might values for every single ability that deals damage as well.

 

[felipepepe]

Don't you have some kind of irrational hate for percentages? I remember your thread where you claimed how +1 THC0 is cool but +5% chances to hit is awful.

Is not irrational, it's about presentation. I think % don't carry weight, they banalise upgrades.

Think of this, when using %, people's mind usually go to 0-100% scale. In that scale, 5% is shit, and 2% is a fucking joke.
Now, what's the scale of THAC0 or Attack Bonus? No idea, but my character has Attack Bonus of 4. If I find a +1 Sword, my Attack Value went from 4 to 5! Now that's something cool, that has weight! (even if behind the scenes my % to hit just went up 5%)

RPGs are make-belive games, you're playing with people's imagination and "immersion". Presentation counts a fucking lot.

 

[Sensuki]

Who forbids tweaking damage per individual weapon:

For Pillars of Eternity? Josh Sawyer, because he wants the rules system to be unified and easily understandable for new players rather than a shit tonne of edge cases. This makes such fine tuning that you talk about impossible.

Every time I talk about PE rules, I try to think with his design goals in mind, as anything else is just not going to happen.

 

[Grunker]

I'm not sure I agree with felipepepe's points about why percentages look worse in terms of presentation, but I certainly agree that they do.

 

[Infinitron]

Sawyer has actually expressed support for both percentage-wise and absolute differences in the past.

For example, one of his innovations is switching per-class saving throw bonuses to an absolute value, instead of de-facto percentage-like geometric bonuses.

On the other hand, damage type vs armor bonuses are percentage-based - although interestingly, that wasn't his first choice. He wanted to use a more complex absolute value-based system at first.

 

[roshan]

I stopped giving a fuck. I'm totally indiffrent at this point. I kinda hoped Obsidian, of all developers, will manage to make a worthy IE successor. With Cain and Avellone on board they could take the best from ToEE, Arcanum, BG and Torment and make a RPG that would blow the Codex away forever, right? But it didn't happen. I just can't be aresed to give a fuck anymore.

I had to vent my frustration and disappointment here though. I wasted 160 bucks on this thing.

Cain lost all creativity after Arcanum. TOEE was a completely uninspired game. Avellone? He probably got burned out after PST and now can't even kill some wolves.

 

[roshan]

IWD2 solely has an attribute each 4 levels and a feat on that, and PoE's talents will be the equal of that.

Now THIS is complete bullshit. IWD2 had a feat every 3 levels and bonus feats depending on class choices. But what's more important is that you could also mix and match classes in any combination, such as Paladin(2)/Sorc(10)/Fighter(4).