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Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
You can say in so many words that I'm sucking dick all you like, but I don't care about the person doing the designing. I care about trying to improve the game rather than making suggestions that I know the designer is not going to listen to at all *shrug*.
 

Semper

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I'm sure the fighter will be very happy with his high int party member for crafting weapons for him.

and now we are back at viable choices. what if the high int party member(s) doesn't focus in crafting, especially into arms and armors? or if i want my fighter to be a broadly skilled char? i am fully aware that all this shit is negligible in most crpgs, but pnp is a different kind of beast. it's also true that dnd's attribute modifiers need an overhaul to better fit into crpg systems.
 

Crispy

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Does anyone still think the retail release will be this year? Looking at the state of the beta it seems they have a LOT to work on.

I was thinking the same thing this morning. They can get a lot done in 3 - 4 months just like inXile appears to have done with WL2, but I get the impression that PoE is a much bigger and ultimately more complex game. It's going to be a real challenge for them to release a completed product in 2014.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Sure, but what does Intelligence give to a Fighter in D&D ?

One of the goals is to make every attribute useful for every class.
Baaw, my STR focused mage can't kill shit! Sawyer, fix plox! And here comes Sawyer, and tells you to do exactly that. Dump all your points into strength to deal massive damage! And the retards rejoiced. He singlehandedly saved a whole generation of casual gamers from shame and ridicule. Praised be Sawyer, the crackerjack designer.

:neveraskedforthis:

An RPG can have either difficult/complex character building, difficult/complex content (that is, difficult fights), neither, or both.

Considering that the Codex is fully willing to embrace RPGs that opt for the first option, and arguably even the third option, we should be willing to accept an RPG that chooses the second option as well.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Sure, but what does Intelligence give to a Fighter in D&D ?
What books are we allowed to use?

Was a rhetorical question. I know what INT gives a Fighter in D&D, some of the supplement books make an INT Fighter viable, but in relation to Pillars of Eternity, edge case rules and different bonuses for different classes aren't going to happen.

For the record, I like both of those things - it's just that no matter how much we ask for them, the design will not include stuff like that in this game.
 

Shadenuat

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In a class-based system, it is probably more efficient to create a fighter-class that has a use for Intelligence than to make Intelligence useful for every class.
 

bonescraper

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You can say in so many words that I'm sucking dick all you like, but I don't care about the person doing the designing. I care about trying to improve the game rather than making suggestions that I know the designer is not going to listen to at all *shrug*.
Hey, i can understand that. But don't try to rationalize shit design, ok? That whole "every attribute counts" idea could even work in a non-party based game. But then again, you can just have a classless system instead.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I'm not trying to rationalize anything. I didn't make the design goals, I don't decide what types of systems the game will or will not have. I have however read pretty much everything Josh has posted about the game, and once upon a time I did throw up my arms at some of the stuff, but that's long past me, and I believe it is possible to still have a good game within Josh's constraints, so rather than just being negative about it I'm just going to focus my effort on trying to make it better. SACRIFICIAL LAMB.
 
Weasel
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I'm glad that all types of characters, even muscle wizards, are viable. I'm going to play a physically weak mage, with powerful magical abilities - I figure he's spent so much of his life studying the magical arts that he hasn't hit the gym much. He won't be able to carry much vendor trash but his fireballs will rock. :cool:
 

Decado

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One day I want to play a CRPG where there is no information on what the stats/attributes actually do. That would be glorious.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Obfuscation can be pretty fun. One of my favourite RTS games is Battle Realms. There are no numbers at all.

None of us had any problem playing the game either. One of the most popular RTS games that me and my friends played at LANs in the 2000s.
 
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as I read more and more comments I am becoming depressed about this game

:negative:

Namely, that character creation and level up seems boring and meaningless. Picking race, culture and social status being just flavor is lame. Linear progression of stats is lame (IE,weighted 3d6 is much better system IMO), lack of specialization in general is lame and boring. More specialization=more meaningful choices and differences=more tactical variability and fun. Don't like that it seems you could almost pick things at random because having higher XXX attribute will just balance out in the end. Means all choices are just flavor. This is the end result that comes from the 'balance' fetish which seems to be some sort of aspie, OCD trait. Balance is not inherently better, in fact is is often times worse, or might as well play checkers.

I hope they fix this things but I worry because many of these issues seem to be issues that are being created on purpuse by Josh Sawyer believing that they are good design, so I worry that the entire foundation of POE is somewhat cemented in place. I don't see JS backing down on certain design ideas. I wish this updated IE could just be based on a modified D&D system. Everybody complains about AD&D for years, but honestly I have never played a CRPG that is superior and don't understand people constantly wanting to re-write it. Much of it seems based on some person having not liked some aspect of D&D and thinking they could do better, but most systems end up being worse.

People think things like magic users not being able to use swords, or clerics edged weapons is 'stupid' and not 'realistic' so they go 30 years wanting to make a muscled wizard because they are butt hurt AD&D would not let them. Or they think wizards being weak and sitting out of fights is 'bad design'. Josh Sawyer often says he thinks people don't know what they like in a game. Its ironic a bit because I feel that people don't understand why D&D is fun in the first place and rewrite the wrong things.

Not allowing clerics to use edged weapons or wizards to use swords or wear armor, make D&D a more specialized and tactical system. Same with non-linear stat bonuses and uneven strengths of relative classes at various levels. These are not bad design, they create interesting tactical trade offs. Unbalanced classes good at different specialized powers with varying strength and weakness at different levels all with restrictions or bonuses to certain types o weapons and armor are all things that add up to making a good and tactical game IMO.

Somebodies life long desire for his wizard to wear armor and carry a two handed sword is power gaming and misses the point of why D&D is fun in the first place. All my opinion.
 

bonescraper

Guest
I'm glad that all types of characters, even muscle wizards, are viable. I'm going to play a physically weak mage, with powerful magical abilities - I figure he's spent so much of his life studying the magical arts that he hasn't hit the gym much. He won't be able to carry much vendor trash but his fireballs will rock. :cool:
Nope, you're not going to play such character. There is no carry weight limit. And if your mage can cast powerful spells, that means he's physically buff, because the stat responsible for ALL damage is strength might. That's actually quite the opposite of what you've described :lol:
 

J_C

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as I read more and more comments I am becoming depressed about this game

:negative:

Namely, that character creation and level up seems boring and meaningless. Picking race, culture and social status being just flavor is lame. Linear progression of stats is lame (IE,weighted 3d6 is much better system IMO), lack of specialization in general is lame and boring. More specialization=more meaningful choices and differences=more tactical variability and fun. Don't like that it seems you could almost pick things at random because having higher XXX attribute will just balance out in the end. Means all choices are just flavor. This is the end result that comes from the 'balance' fetish which seems to be some sort of aspie, OCD trait. Balance is not inherently better, in fact is is often times worse, or might as well play checkers.

I hope they fix this things but I worry because many of these issues seem to be issues that are being created on purpuse by Josh Sawyer believing that they are good design, so I worry that the entire foundation of POE is somewhat cemented in place. I don't see JS backing down on certain design ideas. I wish this updated IE could just be based on a modified D&D system. Everybody complains about AD&D for years, but honestly I have never played a CRPG that is superior and don't understand people constantly wanting to re-write it. Much of it seems based on some person having not liked some aspect of D&D and thinking they could do better, but most systems end up being worse.

People think things like magic users not being able to use swords, or clerics edged weapons is 'stupid' and not 'realistic' so they go 30 years wanting to make a muscled wizard because they are butt hurt AD&D would not let them. Or they think wizards being weak and sitting out of fights is 'bad design'. Josh Sawyer often says he thinks people don't know what they like in a game. Its ironic a bit because I feel that people don't understand why D&D is fun in the first place and rewrite the wrong things.

Not allowing clerics to use edged weapons or wizards to use swords or wear armor, make D&D a more specialized and tactical system. Same with non-linear stat bonuses and uneven strengths of relative classes at various levels. These are not bad design, they create interesting tactical trade offs. Unbalanced classes good at different specialized powers with varying strength and weakness at different levels all with restrictions or bonuses to certain types o weapons and armor are all things that add up to making a good and tactical game IMO.

Some bodies life long desire for his wizard to wear armor and carry a two handed sword is power gaming and misses the point of why D&D is fun in the first place. All my opinion.
If this game would use 2nd ed. D&D, or hell, even 3.5 edition, it would be a dream come true. Or D20. I will LOVE this game, but I'm pretty sure its ruleset won't be as interesting as D&D, since it goes for the MMO ways in some areas.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm glad that all types of characters, even muscle wizards, are viable. I'm going to play a physically weak mage, with powerful magical abilities - I figure he's spent so much of his life studying the magical arts that he hasn't hit the gym much. He won't be able to carry much vendor trash but his fireballs will rock. :cool:
Nope, you're not going to play such character. There is no carry weight limit. And if your mage can cast powerful spells, that means he's physically buff, because the stat responsible for ALL damage is strength might. That's actually quite the opposite of what you've described :lol:

You just got whooshed!

However, fireballs will probably do enough damage even without high Might.

Not allowing clerics to use edged weapons or wizards to use swords or wear armor, make D&D a more specialized and tactical system....All my opinion.

Yep.
 
Last edited:

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
as I read more and more comments I am becoming depressed about this game

:negative:

Namely, that character creation and level up seems boring and meaningless. Picking race, culture and social status being just flavor is lame. Linear progression of stats is lame (IE,weighted 3d6 is much better system IMO), lack of specialization in general is lame and boring. More specialization=more meaningful choices and differences=more tactical variability and fun. Don't like that it seems you could almost pick things at random because having higher XXX attribute will just balance out in the end. Means all choices are just flavor. This is the end result that comes from the 'balance' fetish which seems to be some sort of aspie, OCD trait. Balance is not inherently better, in fact is is often times worse, or might as well play checkers..

All valid concerns.

Attribute system needs an overhaul in how you assign points (Race and Culture bonuses need to be important) and Perception and Resolve need to be reworked. Might percentage bonus probably needs to be changed to a flat number. Leveling Up is pretty shitty, but then again it was pretty shitty in the IE games too.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
BTW, here's Sawyer's video on this topic from February: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...rchetypes-icewind-dale-2-retrospective.89805/

silkvalley asked: Do you think it is important for attributes to allow certain archetypes? For example, a clumsy and physically weak wizard, yet she deals tons of damage with her spells. The priest who's outstandingly accurate with his spells, but is not a master in sleight of hand and pickpocketing (Dexterity). Similarly, should increasing the damage he deals with spells (via attribute) also increase the number of items he can carry?

 

Maculo

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
as I read more and more comments I am becoming depressed about this game

:negative:

Namely, that character creation and level up seems boring and meaningless. Picking race, culture and social status being just flavor is lame. Linear progression of stats is lame (IE,weighted 3d6 is much better system IMO), lack of specialization in general is lame and boring. More specialization=more meaningful choices and differences=more tactical variability and fun. Don't like that it seems you could almost pick things at random because having higher XXX attribute will just balance out in the end. Means all choices are just flavor. This is the end result that comes from the 'balance' fetish which seems to be some sort of aspie, OCD trait. Balance is not inherently better, in fact is is often times worse, or might as well play checkers.

Definitely valid concerns.

I will say that is hard to tell the difference that race, culture, and social status makes right now, because we are limited to just one town. Based on some of the quest text, however, it does seem that backgrounds such as aristocrat and slave may come into play with certain character's reactions. I do not want to spoil too much though.

Moreover, it appears that faction reputation and personality reputation take time to build up. For instance, there are reputation dialog lines that cannot be used, because the beta does not give enough instances to build it up at all. (looking at you benevolence check)
 

felipepepe

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Reading all this stuff, I recall this:
Josh Sawyer said:
That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called Fuck You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good. For better or worse, this was pitched as an IE-like game.
I wonder what's his personal dream RPG experience, and how different from PoE it would be... he doesn't seem to be holding back that much on controversial changes to the IE formula.
 

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