Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

Maybe so. On Something Awful, some people asked Sawyer why he wasn't doing this. His answer was basically "because grognards".

Yeah, perfect solution. Customization produces problems so let's just remove it. Who likes customizing their character anyway, right?

...oh

Your current train of thought is close to being to Sawyer-system defence what FeelTheRads' post is to Sawyer-system criticism bro.

Sawyer can remove the stats, I don't mind. What I am interested in is what customization he will provide instead. And don't feed me "PoE's system isn't about customization" or I swear to God I will file you under "posters that have gone momentarily insanity."

 

[Infinitron]

I think I've explained before that generally speaking I'm unsatisfied with how the concept of "main attribute scores" has been implemented in RPGs historically, so I'm not sorry to see them downgraded. Shame about people's expectations, though.

If you didn't want to actually discuss this, you could have just said so. You tried to move out with an "let's discuss PoE on PoE's presmises." Well, I did. Then you countered with "but stats might be influential if there's a potion." Then I rebutted that. Now you're back at "well so what if they're insignificant." That's a circular argument.

I said they have a low impact in chargen. Outside of chargen, in the game itself where buffing items and spells abound, the sky's the limit.

We don't know what sort of items and spells Obsidian is going to stock the game with so it's hard to tell at this moment, however. I wonder what Sensuki knows about this.

 

[Zed]

It's true that attributes in IE games were not really a tool for creating diverse characters within classes. Because of other dispositions such as class and alignment, and the fact that spells often drew from specific attributes to determine damage and saves, attributes could easily be optimized to the point that alternative builds would seem silly by comparison.

But what the IE attributes did contribute was a larger sense of meaningfulness. In terms of gameplay, they gave attribute-boosting items more value, and enforced the strengths and weaknesses of race/class combinations. In terms of role-playing, the attributes better described strengths and weaknesses of a character.
And don't forget about secondary effects, such as Lore values, spell count, spell writing and reaction modifiers (not really used to its potential in the IE games tho..).

IE attributes was much more than just damage-affecting stats, unlike PoE which has delegated character traits onto very boring and uninspired "skills" which are completely unaffected by character dispositions. (EDIT: actually that's a lie, but still, skills fucking suck)

I want archetypes. Sure, I want to choose between a melee and ranged ranger, whether a character has a good or evil disposition. I want to choose spells for casters and other things.
But what I don't want is a bland character system in favor for "every build works!"
It's just not a compromise that sits well with me.

Attributes should focus on characters as a whole, not solely combat abilities.

 

[Spockrock]

Welcome (back) to the wonderful world of real time with pause! Until very recently, I'd always viewed RTwP as a bastardization born of the late-90s push to make cRPGs more EXCITING and ACTION-Y (to expand the target audience beyond hardcore nerds)

AFAIK they had an engine with real-time combat, they stuck with it. it had little to do with making the game "more exciting", I don't recall this being an issue in those days

assumed that most genuine cRPG fans would naturally prefer TB. Turns out lots of people actually prefer RTwP, which shouldn't be surprising more than a decade after the decline began in earnest.

aren't you tired of dropping the D-bomb every chance you get ("you" the ignorant codexer, not you personally)? considering the fact that the best RPG of the last decade (New Vegas) is a shooter, saying that only TB combat is the "genuine RPG experience" makes you look a bit, erm, out of sync with the times?

 

[Grunker]

I think I've explained before that generally speaking I'm unsatisfied with how the concept of "main attribute scores" has been implemented in RPGs historically, so I'm not sorry to see them downgraded. Shame about people's expectations, though.

If you didn't want to actually discuss this, you could have just said so. You tried to move out with an "let's discuss PoE on PoE's presmises." Well, I did. Then you countered with "but stats might be influential if there's a potion." Then I rebutted that. Now you're back at "well so what if they're insignificant." That's a circular argument.

I said they have a low impact in chargen.

See my (rather large) edit. At its core, this debate is about customization. PoE wants to have customization. What it provides right now is very poor. I am arguing the system on its own merits. It is time for you to do the same.

 

[bussinrounds]

Is it just me or does no one else have a clue wtf is going on in combat? It's just a jumbled mess to me

What ever happened to that slow-mo feature that was mentioned a while back ? Guess it's not in the beta ?

And what the fuck are you talking about Spockrock ?

New Vegas was good in spite of the engine/gameplay, not because of it.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

Is it just me or does no one else have a clue wtf is going on in combat? It's just a jumbled mess to me

What ever happened to that slow-mo feature that was mentioned a while back ? Guess it's not in the beta ?

Nope, it's there.

 

[J_C]

Is it just me or does no one else have a clue wtf is going on in combat? It's just a jumbled mess to me

What ever happened to that slow-mo feature that was mentioned a while back ? Guess it's not in the beta ?

And what the fuck are you talking about Spockrock ?

New Vegas was good in spite of the engine/gameplay, not because of it.

Someone wrote that it is in the beta, but it is buggy.

 

[Infinitron]

See my (rather large) edit. At its core, this debate is about customization. PoE wants to have customization. What it provides right now is very poor. I am arguing the system on its own merits. It is time for you to do the same.

Ok. What does "customization" mean?

Customizing a character DURING the game as he levels up, by selecting various talents/feats?

Or customizing by way of selecting a particular archetype during chargen only and playing it until the end of the game?

For the first definition, as you know, the game is still missing most of its talents. For the second definition, the game's classes are distinct and it supports a wide variety of archetypes. It's just that those archetypes aren't as...vividly realized through attribute score selection as they were in D&D.

 

[bussinrounds]

Is it just me or does no one else have a clue wtf is going on in combat? It's just a jumbled mess to me

What ever happened to that slow-mo feature that was mentioned a while back ? Guess it's not in the beta ?

Nope, it's there.

Does it not make combat easier to tell wtf is going on ?

 

[Jagged Appliance]

I think I've explained before that generally speaking I'm unsatisfied with how the concept of "main attribute scores" has been implemented in RPGs historically, so I'm not sorry to see them downgraded. Shame about people's expectations, though.

If you didn't want to actually discuss this, you could have just said so. You tried to move out with an "let's discuss PoE on PoE's presmises." Well, I did. Then you countered with "but stats might be influential if there's a potion." Then I rebutted that. Now you're back at "well so what if they're insignificant." That's a circular argument.

I think it's almost inevitable that attributes overall would become less important with Sawyer's efforts to balance them as the most important ones are downgraded and the least important ones given a boost. Could be wrong though.

It really is a pity this game was so heavily marketed as an IE successor. It gives Obsidian a cheap cover for most design decisions. It also means you have people simultaneously saying the game is too much like IE and not enough like IE.

 

[Grunker]

See my (rather large) edit. At its core, this debate is about customization. PoE wants to have customization. What it provides right now is very poor. I am arguing the system on its own merits. It is time for you to do the same.

Ok. What does "customization" mean?

Customizing a character DURING the game as he levels up, by selecting various talents/feats?

Or "customizing" by way of selecting a particular archetype during chargen only and playing it until the end of the game?

For the first definition, as you know, the game is still missing most of its talents. For the second definition, the game's classes are distinct and it supports a wide variety of archetypes. It's just that those archetypes aren't as...vividly realized through attribute score selection as they were in D&D.

One of my points was that the class selection being so diverse was an overstretch. You don't feel like you're customizing anything by picking a class. No one would call their choice of car customization - they'd call what colour of pink it is and what speaker-solution they chose customization.

Customization is manipulation of system assets. Picking a class is just a choice between a bundle of those. Your only real method of making sure your fighter has your personal imprints on it is how you manipulate the starting attributes.

To stick with the car-example, PoE offers you a choice of 11 brands but with those brands WYSIWYG. That's not fun customization. Fun customization is picking from a selection brands a then manipulating your choice to suit your needs.

 

[Duraframe300]

Is it just me or does no one else have a clue wtf is going on in combat? It's just a jumbled mess to me

What ever happened to that slow-mo feature that was mentioned a while back ? Guess it's not in the beta ?

Nope, it's there.

Does it not make combat easier to tell wtf is going on ?

For some (According to some posts on the Obs forums). Many don't seem to use or want to use it.

 

[Grunker]

(by the way, Infinitron, I hope you recall my initial disclaimer that this is a case of me being disappointed that PoE could have offered much more and better customization that it does - with the talents I am confident it will offer something comparable to what the IE-games did... that's just not a whole heck of a lot)

 

[Duraframe300]

(by the way, Infinitron, I hope you recall my initial disclaimer that this is a case of me being disappointed that PoE could have offered much more and better customization that it does - with the talents I am confident it will offer something comparable to what the IE-games did... that's just not a whole heck of a lot)

First game though (with all the considerations that entails)

Good chance stuff gets expanded.

 

[Infinitron]

One of my points was that the class selection being so diverse was an overstretch. You don't feel like you're customizing anything by picking a class. No one would call their choice of car customization - they'd call what colour of pink it is and what speaker-solution they chose customization.

Some of these classes are cool and weird enough that I'm not sure that's true, but okay.

They may, however, still gain a variety of abilities over the course of their career that would allow them to perform in various roles, in conjunction with a particular selection of attribute scores.

For example, at Level 3 your Fighter might get an ability that does lots of damage, and at Level 4 he might get a limited "sword sweep" area effect attack. The first ability would synergize with a high Might to do even more damage, while the second one would synergize with Intelligence, increasing the area effect range.

Each of these situations represents a distinct customized role for your fighter - with non-combat dialogue stat checks providing the icing on the customized cake, so to speak. And that's without the talents.

So, maybe the attributes seem low-impact, but on the whole the game seems to provide a wider range of "customizations" compared with the AD&D IE games.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

See my (rather large) edit. At its core, this debate is about customization. PoE wants to have customization. What it provides right now is very poor. I am arguing the system on its own merits. It is time for you to do the same.

Ok. What does "customization" mean?

Customizing a character DURING the game as he levels up, by selecting various talents/feats?

Or "customizing" by way of selecting a particular archetype during chargen only and playing it until the end of the game?

For the first definition, as you know, the game is still missing most of its talents. For the second definition, the game's classes are distinct and it supports a wide variety of archetypes. It's just that those archetypes aren't as...vividly realized through attribute score selection as they were in D&D.

One of my points was that the class selection being so diverse was an overstretch. You don't feel like you're customizing anything by picking a class. No one would call their choice of car customization - they'd call what colour of pink it is and what speaker-solution they chose customization.

Customization is manipulation of system assets. Picking a class is just a choice between a bundle of those. Your only real method of making sure your fighter has your personal imprints on it is how you manipulate the starting attributes.

To stick with the car-example, PoE offers you a choice of 11 brands but with those brands WYSIWYG. That's not fun customization. Fun customization is picking from a selection brands a then manipulating your choice to suit your needs.

Well, Sawyer did mention beforehand about the lack of talents in the backer beta. I think that if the community demands more customization, they will implement a great variety of talents (at least I hope so).

 

[Grunker]

For example, at Level 3 your Fighter might get an ability that does lots of damage, and at Level 4 he might get a limited "sword sweep" area effect attack. The first ability would synergize with a high Might to do even more damage, while the second one would synergize with Intelligence, increasing the area effect range.

Yeah, Sensuki claims this isn't a thing. We'll see.

 

[Athelas]

I still don't see why they couldn't let you pick what class abilitiy to take on level ups. Am I missing something?

 

[Grunker]

I still don't see why you couldn't pick what class abilitiy to take on level ups?

As I understand it, classes get a set kit of abilities each time they level up. There are no choices involved except for stuff like Wizard spells because of the grimoire.

 

[Infinitron]

I still don't see why they couldn't let you pick what class abilitiy to take on level ups. Am I missing something?

The abilities might not be balanced against each other. Ie, it's possible Josh designed "low level class abilities" and "high level class abilities" with the latter being generally more valuable than the former. He's not actually totally against that, you know: http://twofoldsilence.diogenes-lamp.info/2012/11/the-queen-needs-no-advocate.html

 

[Athelas]

Sure, but you could still let the player choose abilities while having the more powerful abilities unlocked only after reaching higher levels.

 

[Osvir]

Screenshots thread at Obsidian forums. Screenshots library in Steam. Just thought I'd notify~

 

[Sensuki]

I haven't played as much as everyone else, but a lot of people are reporting that ranged combat is a laugh as long as you have a Fighter to engage enemies. Not surprising considering the insane amount of damage that Arbalests and Arquebuses do. An Arbalest does 4-7 times the damage of a Hunting Bow (11-19 vs 43-79 or something).

BRB cat spewed all over desk

 

[Grunker]

BRB cat spewed all over desk

haha