Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Duraframe300]

I just can't agree with the idea that "bugs" are somehow solely responsible for the fact that the game isn't fun to play. Seriously, your beta stage game hasn't nailed the core of the gameplay. Despite of all the messiah game designers it has attached to it...

The core of the game is there for me and there are several bugs that directly hinder the combat. Not that *everythings* perfect with it but yeah. That's what I see and thats the statement I can make at the moment.

Of course, it could be that the game is totally not fun to play when the bugs are away, but thats something I just can't make a statement either way about yet.

(Though I actually have fun with the combat already so far personally)

 

[Duraframe300]

As for time, if they can't in 4 months, they will delay it or go EA. There is no chance Feargus will release a buggy game now that there isn't a publiser to be blamed for it.

I think another delay will largely depend on snags hit in the road. It could be earlier, it could be later depending on the speed of bug squashing.

 

[Sensuki]

I just can't agree with the idea that "bugs" are somehow solely responsible for the fact that the game isn't fun to play. Seriously, your beta stage game hasn't nailed the core of the gameplay. Despite of all the messiah game designers it has attached to it...

You are right that some elements of gameplay are swing and miss, but what myself, Dura300 and others have been saying is that there are certain bugs which hinder us from being able to make detailed analysis of the problem at hand which magnify the issues with combat by quite a lot. I have stated over on the Beta forums that the Stamina to Health damage ratio is naturally too low which makes the length of the adventuring day very short in comparison to the number of abilities and spells that you are given.

Most of the classes feel distinctive. The attack resolution and damage vs DT systems appear to be pretty good.

I think that they are in the ballpark, but they've got a long way to go to get to home base.

 

[Osvir]

Tip: Some Auto-Pause options helps the flow, feel, and comprehension, of the combat system. Experiment.

No fucking way (for me). I never used auto pause in IE and I never will here.

I intend to play without auto-pause when the combat is less choppy. As for now, it helps understand game mechanics and keeps an average stability throughout the experience.

 

[Grunker]

I don't feel it's disappointing at all, just much more chaotically unfinished at the moment than I expected it to be, even for a very early beta... and rest assured, my mouth isn't socketed firmly onto Josh's dingus the way some people's are.

I got to play a bit on my friend's backer beta install. My initial thoughts are: wow, big problems. However few fundamental, doubtedly fixable flaws a la the ones we saw in the WL2 beta.

Also, I don't really think there are any Sawyer-fanboys on the Codex besides Roguey. Well, maybe Duraframe300 but I think that's more general Obsidian-fanboyry

 

[Duraframe300]

I don't feel it's disappointing at all, just much more chaotically unfinished at the moment than I expected it to be, even for a very early beta... and rest assured, my mouth isn't socketed firmly onto Josh's dingus the way some people's are.

I got to play a bit on my friend's backer beta install. My initial thoughts are: wow, big problems. However few fundamental, doubtedly fixable flaws a la the ones we saw in the WL2 beta.

What are you refering here to specifically?

 

[Grunker]

I don't feel it's disappointing at all, just much more chaotically unfinished at the moment than I expected it to be, even for a very early beta... and rest assured, my mouth isn't socketed firmly onto Josh's dingus the way some people's are.

I got to play a bit on my friend's backer beta install. My initial thoughts are: wow, big problems. However few fundamental, doubtedly fixable flaws a la the ones we saw in the WL2 beta.

What are you refering here to specifically?

In terms of the first part or the latter? In terms of the "big problems" I'm refering to the combat's kinaesthetics (MAJOR issue for me), the fact that character customization seems to be disappointing and I don't think animated elements are distinct enough from the background. There are a couple of other things. The sound design bores me in general. I predict a major hassle with the inventory. Stuff like that.

 

[Duraframe300]

Well, maybe Duraframe300 but I think that's more general Obsidian-fanboyry

P.much

I like parts of Sawyer, I think he has more skills as a project manager / system designer as the rest of Obsidian and I respect his ideals. I disagree with him a lot though when it comes to design/ would do differently. That's my opinion on Sawyer.

I don't feel it's disappointing at all, just much more chaotically unfinished at the moment than I expected it to be, even for a very early beta... and rest assured, my mouth isn't socketed firmly onto Josh's dingus the way some people's are.

I got to play a bit on my friend's backer beta install. My initial thoughts are: wow, big problems. However few fundamental, doubtedly fixable flaws a la the ones we saw in the WL2 beta.

What are you refering here to specifically?

In terms of the first part or the latter? In terms of the "big problems" I'm refering to the combat's kinaesthetics (MAJOR issue for me), the fact that character customization seems to be disappointing and I don't think animated elements are distinct enough from the background. There are a couple of other things. The sound design bores me in general. I predict a major hassle with the inventory. Stuff like that.

1,3 and 5 are absolutly solvable. About 2 and 4. Eh, opinions. I can see how'd would bother you. Though both imo can still be somewhat adjusted. We'll see. At least sound design is certainly still being worked on though.

 

[Grunker]

absolutly solvable

Did you misread my post perhaps? Honest question. My point was that PoE's beta in the short time I had with it felt like it got the fundamentals right and could be fixed (though I doubt by December) unlike WL2 which I felt had some fundamental flaws.

 

[Black]

What's rougey's damage control status?

 

[Grunker]

What's rougey's damage control status?

He's in hiding. The official excuse is "BETA feedback is for the developer, not me."

 

[Duraframe300]

absolutly solvable

Did you misread my post perhaps? Honest question my point was that PoE's beta in the short time I had with it felt like it got the fundamentals right and could be fixed (though I doubt by December) unlike WL2 which I felt had some fundamental flaws.

Yeah, I misread what you were referring to with doubtedly.

Sry. of me.

 

[Duraframe300]

What's rougey's damage control status?

He's in hiding. The official excuse is "BETA feedback is for the developer, not me."

Excpect him to come back full force if it turns out well.

ROGUEY CASSANDRAZ. WHAT DID I SAY. MAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH SAWYEEEEEEEEEEEER. DIVINITY AND WASTELAND BAD.

Edit: Even if it doesn't

MAHHHH SAWYER. RUINED BY OBSIDIAN HACKS.

 

[Blaine]

...the fact that character customization seems to be disappointing....

I'm not sure why you find it disappointing, but in my case it's because all stats are more-or-less equally useful across all classes in order to minimize the consequences of poor choices (balance!), every class gets its two scoops of a handful of generic utility skills (balance!), and all Abilities are Traits are carefully (balanced!) to ensure that no set of abilities or class has an edge over any other.

Of course, I saw this coming ages ago. It's not exactly a surprise. I'd prefer to be proven wrong in the long run, but I doubt that's going to happen.

What's rougey's damage control status?

Currently not returning our calls.

 

[Black]

Damn, that's bad. Should we put... it on Codex's suicide watch?

 

[Sensuki]

The content in PE seems right, which was one of WL2's problems early and the dialogue tone is very good.

There are some system design issues, but nothing that theoretically can't be fixed.

The sound design is boring. Music is a little better, the main menu theme is pretty good but the wilderness music is very "inoffensive" and muted. Combat tracks are inspired by Michael Hoenig I think.

Lots of UI elements, combat sounds, feedback sounds are missing. The character voice sets have like 3-4 things in them.

 

[Grunker]

I'm not sure why you find it disappointing

Two reasons:

1) There's is little customization variety within each class (aka your fighter is my fighter). I hope Talents will alleviate this, but all-in-all we're looking at something closer to the origina, IE-games or IWD2 than modern P&P systems on this point. My expectations does not match these news.

2) I believe that some of the above is caused by the grave mistake and design shortcut that low-impact system assets are. IE, stats must be balanced and all stats useful for all classes = noble goal. Stats are therefore of minimal impact and low diversity = faulty tool to achieve said goal. Again, not to toot my own horn but I pretty much predicted exactly this during the initial discussion of Sawyer's design philosophy. i.e. he borrows from 4th Edition which pretty much balanced via uniformity. Uniformity is a universally bad thing in any system aspiring to fun customization in my opinion.

Sawyer initially said that his idea of balance is "everything isn't equal, but everything is useful." I think that's a worthy design ideal. However I think in practice he sticked more to a MOBA-philosophy of "everything should be roughly competitive."

So yep, we're pretty much in agreeance about why it sucks I believe?

However, like I said, these things are IMO not fundamental problems that conspire to make the game unfun. Just less fun that it could have been

Damn, that's bad. Should we put... it on Codex's suicide watch?

I highly doubt it. Pillars of Eternity still arguably outshines both D:OS and WL2 in terms of sheer potential currently so I'm sure she'll return to gloat once the game comes out, regardless of its reception by the rest of us.

 

[Grunker]

The sound design is boring. Music is a little better, the main menu theme is pretty good but the wilderness music is very "inoffensive" and muted. Combat tracks are inspired by Michael Hoenig I think.

The sound design feels so ironic for me. Basically, I love Hoenig's city themes and hate his combat themes with a passion. However I like IWD's combat themes but I'm not that keen on its downplayed ambience. Basically for a guy like me, the music is worst of all worlds

(that said, it really isn't bad, not even 'meh', more disappointing because I recall excellence from the IE-games in some departments)

 

[Grunker]

Damn, that's bad. Should we put... it on Codex's suicide watch?

I highly doubt it. Pillars of Eternity still arguably outshines both D:OS and WL2 in terms of sheer potential currently so I'm sure she'll return to gloat once the game comes out, regardless of its reception by the rest of us.

He's talking about Roguey, not the game, I think.

I am too?

 

[Grotesque]

Is Roguey a hermaphrodite? Why some people use "he" and others "she" when referring to ...

 

[MicoSelva]

Is Roguey a hermaphrodite? Why some people use "he" and others "she" when referring to ...

Because NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE.

 

[Infinitron]

Sawyer initially said that his idea of balance is "everything isn't equal, but everything is useful." I think that's a worthy design ideal. However I think in practice he sticked more to a MOBA-philosophy of "everything should be roughly competitive."

What are you talking about? The attributes, or everything?

As I said earlier:

The relative unimportance of the main attributes is a core feature of PoE's system. That's probably not going to change.

The idea is that the classes themselves should be distinct enough, with the attributes only providing "finishing touches" or adjustments on top of their intrinsic capabilities. No matter what attributes he has, a wizard will still do lots of damage and a fighter will still be a pretty good tank. Of course, at the highest level of competition - the toughest battles against the toughest enemies - your attributes might mean the difference between success and failure.

So, personally, I would be checking if the classes do in fact feel sufficiently distinct. Perhaps this is something Obsidian need to emphasize more.

This is what you need to be looking at. In the IE games too, nobody was thinking about their attributes one hour after starting the game. What was important was the long term progression of their classes over time.

The problem with this beta is that people are going to be laser-focused on things in chargen that might not matter so much in the long run.

 

[Black]

Is Roguey a hermaphrodite? Why some people use "he" and others "she" when referring to ...

Because NOBODY WANTS TO KNOW FOR SURE.

fixt

 

[Sensuki]

The sound design is boring. Music is a little better, the main menu theme is pretty good but the wilderness music is very "inoffensive" and muted. Combat tracks are inspired by Michael Hoenig I think.

The sound design feels so ironic for me. Basically, I love Hoenig's city themes and hate his combat themes with a passion. However I like IWD's combat themes but I'm not that keen on its downplayed ambience. Basically for a guy like me, the music is worst of all worlds

I LOVED BG1 Wilderness music, but I also liked a lot of IWD's tracks as well. Justin Bell however does not like Baldur's Gate 1's Wilderness tracks (not like might be a strong word) and prefers late Jeremy Soule background flutter style I think.

The IE games usually had a single melody/instrument forward in the mix, which really helped with "feeling / memorability". It was also in between 80s-90s over the top style and the post-2000s snooze style. Modern video game, movie and TV show soundtracks just mix everything to the back in a nothing-sticks-out inoffensive style.

 

[Blaine]

2) I believe that some of the above is caused by the grave mistake and design shortcut that low-impact system assets are. IE, stats must be balanced and all stats useful for all classes = noble goal. Stats are therefore of minimal impact and low diversity = faulty tool to achieve said goal. Again, not to toot my own horn but I pretty much predicted exactly this during the initial discussion of Sawyer's design philosophy. i.e. he borrows from 4th Edition which pretty much balanced via uniformity. Uniformity is a universally bad thing in any system aspiring to fun customization in my opinion.

Entirely agreed.

Since we're both familiar with tabletop rules systems, a good comparison here might be between D&D 4e (which I haven't read, making it one of the few) and RIFTS. RIFTS is an awful mess of a system, incredibly unbalanced, and Kevin Siembieda is an industry pariah due to being a bizarre, egotistical shithead... but RIFTS is great fun to play. (It also helps that RIFTS setting materials are original, creative, and just plain cool.) RIFTS is perhaps too messy and unbalanced for most people's tastes, but it's a suitable poster child for its end of the spectrum.

Sawyer initially said that his idea of balance is "everything isn't equal, but everything is useful." I think that's a worthy design ideal. However I think in practice he sticked more to a MOBA-philosophy of "everything should be roughly competitive."

Yep.

So yep, we're pretty much in agreeance about why it sucks I believe?

Yep.