Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[ga♥]

Well I don't need to do the math. I already played both back when people debated furiously over two handed fighter vs ranger over on steam. I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I really, really, like the ranger subclass freebooter. It has become a staple for me. It brings some much needed utility on unfair.

Freebooters can be good. There's 0 reason to favour vanilla over a freebooter (was there really a fight over 2h-fighter vs ranger?)

 

[Desiderius]

chippy said Ranger was the worst class.

You probably missed this too:

That's Amiri with Freebooter 10/Thug 4/Barb5 I think and Ekun at Ranger 19

I played them because of Freebooter and once I learned to Haplo realized Freebooter was dominant, then took Ekun up to 19 for a lark after always giving him Huntmaster levels and realized how good Improved Quarry was and what he could do with Legendary Proportions.

 

[Desiderius]

gay,

There's a lot about the Ranger class (including subclasses) you haven't figured out yet. Hope you enjoy doing so someday.

There's a new archetype in WotR that is off the chain (mostly due to the setting).

 

[Desiderius]

If you care about the pets. You can sacrifice three of your ranger levels into Scared Huntsmaster.

IMO Tactical Leader with Animal domain is better than Sacred Huntsman.

Tactical Leader doesn't get to share Feats with pet, although you make up for this somewhat by getting to share Feats with everyone. That ability doesn't get many uses/much duration tho. Sharing Judgments is pretty nice.

 

[Pink Eye]

Well I don't need to do the math. I already played both back when people debated furiously over two handed fighter vs ranger over on steam. I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I really, really, like the ranger subclass freebooter. It has become a staple for me. It brings some much needed utility on unfair.

Freebooters can be good. There's 0 reason to favour vanilla over a freebooter (was there really a fight over 2h-fighter vs ranger?)

Yeah. I think I remember steam threads about ranger pets vs two handed fighter. Basically the same thing that people are saying here.

 

[Desiderius]

Dog only gets 1 APR, Smilodon gets 5

Okbo still owns. I've tanked two whole playthroughs with him, including Hunt since unlike gay I've figured out how to beat saves/ameliorate the effects of the WH. It does pose a decent challenge, but it wasn't as bad as I thought. Again, designing around the endgame alone is also poor design.

 

[Desiderius]

I like Slayer and Fighter too - they’re all up there. The extra damage (and they do 10-20% more) seems like overkill when your Freebooter is just wrecking the whole game with Great Cleave, while also giving the whole team +5/+3 and providing key spell support.

Fighter ends up much more resilient and Slayer brings some other utility.

 

[Sharpedge]

Dog only gets 1 APR, Smilodon gets 5

Dog gets trip, later in the game you can polymorph a dog into a dragon and then it has the same apr as a smilodon+trip. Dog also has better base stats than a smilodon. Overall I would say dog is a better pet. If you want to argue that for early game smilodon is better and that early game matters more, early game statistically a leopard is better than a smilodon as well and so if early game is all that matters to you then you should take a leopard.

 

[Yosharian]

Dog only gets 1 APR, Smilodon gets 5

Dog gets trip, later in the game you can polymorph a dog into a dragon and then it has the same apr as a smilodon+trip. Dog also has better base stats than a smilodon. Overall I would say dog is a better pet. If you want to argue that for early game smilodon is better and that early game matters more, early game statistically a leopard is better than a smilodon as well and so if early game is all that matters to you then you should take a leopard.

Im aware of that, no the Dog is not the better pet, APR matters at all stages of the game, no the Leopard is not better than the Smilodon early, the extra APR of the Smilodon is balanced against the Leopard's better AC (only better for the first 6 levels or so)

Even once you obtain access to Greater Polymorph, which is relatively late into the game, the dragon form is pretty cumbersome and not something you want on all the time, so this is only something you're going to use in very important fights, realistically speaking

 

[Desiderius]

Sounds like Sharp has been Sylvan Sorc Soloing in the Depths. Good fun.

The combination of all the great group buffs and all those full BAB Smilo attax is way to good if you’re playing the game as designed.

 

[Sharpedge]

Dog only gets 1 APR, Smilodon gets 5

Dog gets trip, later in the game you can polymorph a dog into a dragon and then it has the same apr as a smilodon+trip. Dog also has better base stats than a smilodon. Overall I would say dog is a better pet. If you want to argue that for early game smilodon is better and that early game matters more, early game statistically a leopard is better than a smilodon as well and so if early game is all that matters to you then you should take a leopard.

Im aware of that, no the Dog is not the better pet, APR matters at all stages of the game, no the Leopard is not better than the Smilodon early, the extra APR of the Smilodon is balanced against the Leopard's better AC (only better for the first 6 levels or so)

The first 6 levels are arguably the "hardest" levels of the game, which was why I said that if you value the performance of a pet at early game, the leopard is better. Added to this, at late game once again you can polymorph a leopard into a Dragon and once again end up with a pet with the same number of attacks as a Smilodon but with the added advantage of trip.
Early game its Leopard > Smilodon > Dog
Mid game its Smilodon > Dog > Leopard (it might be Leopard > Dog here, too lazy to check my spreadsheet to verify)
Late game its Dog > Leopard > Smilodon

Smilodon is not universally the best pet, Dog has higher damage dice and better BaB so the moment you can polymorph it, Smilodon loses out. Unless you value trip as nothing, there is no reason not to consider taking a leopard or dog. Trip is very good defensively in the early game as well and is not to be sneezed at.

 

[Yosharian]

> The first 6 levels are arguably the "hardest" levels of the game, which was why I said that if you value the performance of a pet at early game, the leopard is better.

No, the Smilodon is just as good.

> Added to this, at late game once again you can polymorph a leopard into a Dragon and once again end up with a pet with the same number of attacks as a Smilodon but with the added advantage of trip.

Already addressed this

> Early game its Leopard > Smilodon > Dog

No it's not

> Mid game its Smilodon > Dog > Leopard (it might be Leopard > Dog here, too lazy to check my spreadsheet to verify)

No it's not

> Late game its Dog > Leopard > Smilodon

No it's not

> Smilodon is not universally the best pet

Smilodon, Elk and Leopard are tied for best pet 'universally'

> Dog has higher damage dice and better BaB so the moment you can polymorph it, Smilodon loses out.

Already addressed this

 

[Pink Eye]

I don't know why people forget Elk. With damage bonuses to charge, you can easily one shot unsuspecting enemies. It's a great alternative.

 

[Yosharian]

I don't know why people forget Elk. With damage bonuses to charge, you can easily one shot unsuspecting enemies. It's a great alternative.

Sigh

 

[Pink Eye]

Don't sigh at me. I wrote my post before you wrote yours. I was just too slow to actually post it.

 

[Sharpedge]

Sounds like Sharp has been Sylvan Sorc Soloing in the Depths. Good fun.

The combination of all the great group buffs and all those full BAB Smilo attax is way to good if you’re playing the game as designed.

Eh, soloing the depths becomes very tedious once you run into walls of Autumn Golems. I hear lots of complaints about the wild hunt but I would like to register my dislike for those things instead.

> The first 6 levels are arguably the "hardest" levels of the game, which was why I said that if you value the performance of a pet at early game, the leopard is better.

No, the Smilodon is just as good.

> Added to this, at late game once again you can polymorph a leopard into a Dragon and once again end up with a pet with the same number of attacks as a Smilodon but with the added advantage of trip.

Already addressed this

> Early game its Leopard > Smilodon > Dog

No it's not

> Mid game its Smilodon > Dog > Leopard (it might be Leopard > Dog here, too lazy to check my spreadsheet to verify)

No it's not

> Late game its Dog > Leopard > Smilodon

No it's not

> Smilodon is not universally the best pet

Smilodon, Elk and Leopard are tied for best pet 'universally'

> Dog has higher damage dice and better BaB so the moment you can polymorph it, Smilodon loses out.

Already addressed this

Claiming something is the best universally means it is best in all situations. It is arguing an absolute. It is just as silly is saying that, "mercs are always better than the premade companions," when its possible to create many builds with the premade companions which are better than their merc equivalent. Can I name at least 1 situation in which you would rather have a Dog than a Smilodon? Easily. You spend more time in the Endless Dungeon at 20 than below it, ergo in the Endless Dungeon the Dog would be better. If you are playing Kingmaker solo you spend more time above level 14 then below it, Ergo if you solo kingmaker the dog would be better. It is better to point out the advantages/disadvantages of each pet and let them think for themselves, then to just keep touting the same old, "Smilodon is the best pet," when depending on what they want to do, it actually might not be.

Saying, "no its not" is not an argument unless you provide justification.

I don't know why people forget Elk. With damage bonuses to charge, you can easily one shot unsuspecting enemies. It's a great alternative.

Guilty as charged. :D

 

[Pink Eye]

>Guilty is charged.
I am the confused. What does the man of dogs mean by that?

Anyways, you guys should try out Elks. I had fun shitposting about them on the pathfinder threads on 4chan. I once ran with one on the Varnhold DLC and man was it fun. I once did 100 damage on charge with a Elk. Blew my fooking mind it did.

 

[Sharpedge]

>Guilty is charged.
I am the confused. What does the man of dogs mean by that?

Anyways, you guys should try out Elks. I had fun shitposting about them on the pathfinder threads on 4chan. I once ran with one on the Varnhold DLC and man was it fun. I once did 100 damage on charge with a Elk. Blew my fooking my mind it did.

It was a typo, I meant that I am guilty of forgetting Elks in my post, as you claimed about it.

 

[Yosharian]

Saying, "no its not" is not an argument unless you provide justification.

 

[Desiderius]

Saying, "no its not" is not an argument unless you provide justification.

Yes, that was Yosh’s point.

AKA ipse dixit.

Trip’s nice and all but you’re also forgetting the strongest (and thus one of the rarest) melee abilities in the game: Pounce. The cat has it all.

 

[Sharpedge]

Saying, "no its not" is not an argument unless you provide justification.

Yes, that was Yosh’s point.

AKA ipse dixit.

Trip’s nice and all but you’re also forgetting the strongest (and thus one of the rarest) melee abilities in the game: Pounce. The cat has it all.

Yosh or Sharp? I am confused here. I did provide a reasoning for my points which he said, "no its not" towards, albeit shorthand. On the subject of Pounce, it is also available to the Leopard, but yes for initial engagements it is very good.

 

[Daidre]

Dog only gets 1 APR, Smilodon gets 5

Dog gets iterative attack so it also ends up with 3 APR but not at full bab of course. Another interesting thing about Dog's Bite - it is treated as two handed weapon and this pet gets * 1.5 dmg bonus from STR with one of the best STR stat among the pets. It also gets *1.5 version of Power Attack. AND trips on every hit with fairly decent CMB, when Leopard gets only one attempt with Bite +x2 Claws, smaller and has lower STR.

So Doggy is the classic case of exchanging early game power for the late game power. Yeah, multi-attacking pets are amazing in chapter 1 but later it shines a lot with auto-tripping.

Even once you obtain access to Greater Polymorph, which is relatively late into the game, the dragon form is pretty cumbersome and not something you want on all the time, so this is only something you're going to use in very important fights, realistically speaking

Good thing that the same Greater Polymorph spell can turn anyone into Smilodon too, when Dragon is too cumberstone.

 

[Desiderius]

I did provide a reasoning for my points.

Thin to none, which is ok. The way you use your pet is very unique.

I don't use the Big Cat anymore since it breaks my games and am very much enjoying Leopards and Mastodons and the like.

Thx, Daidre, I was thinking Okbo got some iteratives but had read somewhere else that pets don't get them. Yeah, he's quite the Tripper as well, as I can attest.

 

[Yosharian]

Dog only gets 1 APR, Smilodon gets 5

Dog gets iterative attack so it also ends up with 3 APR but not at full bab of course. Another interesting thing about Dog's Bite - it is treated as two handed weapon and this pet gets * 1.5 dmg bonus from STR with one of the best STR stat among the pets. It also gets *1.5 version of Power Attack. AND trips on every hit with fairly decent CMB, when Leopard gets only one attempt with Bite +x2 Claws, smaller and has lower STR

Where is this coming from? Pets don't get iteratives

 

[Sharpedge]

Dog only gets 1 APR, Smilodon gets 5

Dog gets iterative attack so it also ends up with 3 APR but not at full bab of course. Another interesting thing about Dog's Bite - it is treated as two handed weapon and this pet gets * 1.5 dmg bonus from STR with one of the best STR stat among the pets. It also gets *1.5 version of Power Attack. AND trips on every hit with fairly decent CMB, when Leopard gets only one attempt with Bite +x2 Claws, smaller and has lower STR

Where is this coming from? Pets don't get iteratives

They do.