Of female characters in RPG's

[Saark]

Yeah, no. Both women and men of the middle ages were not bulkier. Nutrition played a huge role at preventing bulk, meat wasn't as readily available. If you want confirmation of this simply examine the dimensions of armor in museums and look at the tomb effigies. They were much leaner than modern men, and slightly shorter on average. Not as bad as the industrial revolution, but either way modern man has the physical advantage provided he's not indulging in the wrong foods.

Athleticism isn't incompatible with an entire sex, neither is having a powerful frame. Both of which are required for martial activities. Access to foods that enable a physique like that was much rarer back then, obviously, but not impossible. There's no reason to believe women simply weren't able to access a diet like that.

It does because we are not talking about outliers, but about averages. And perhaps more importantly, we are talking about societal constraints. Doesn't matter if a female outlier would've had the genetic potential to excel in martial pursuits if the society that she found herself in didn't give her the option to pursue that path in the first place. And the sort of medieval societies that your typical fantasy settings are based upon did not give women such options. And not only due to prejudices that you could handwave away in an enlightened fantasy setting, but due to demographic necessities that would translate over into such settings if the latter are to be internally consistent.

And here I thought the topic is about RPG protagonists/heroines, who are by definition not average. I know you're used to derailing topics of conversation, but try to keep up with this one. You're projecting the happenings on planet earth onto every fantasy setting, which is about as dumb as it gets. The writers change the narrative, and setting, the way they want to. Whether it's due to some dumbass SJW agenda or for other reasons, but if they decide that women happen to have more rights/opportunities to excel at things that they could not in earthly human history, then that is not inconsistency. It's worldbuilding. You simply don't like it, because it doesn't conform to your narrow-minded view of how things "should" be, which is a weird as fuck attitude to have when going into a fantasy game. Unless the setting is supposed to be historically accurate, like KCD, there's no reason to believe that whatever the fuck happened X years ago in human history should by default be the logical consistency of any given fantasy setting.

The entire genre is designed to let participants engage in a certain type of wish fulfillment. If that means that some of the obvious limitations of the real world don't apply here, then who gives a flying fuck. If some innsmouth-people looking dude wants to play the face of the party, so be it. If some reallife hodor wants to be a cunning sorcerer, go ahead. If some bulemic girl wants to play Xena or a female conan, be my guest. The problem isn't that they exist, or even how common they are, because adventurer parties and most major NPCs are not "common" people to begin with.

It's about making the characters backstory and origins believable and interesting enough that I actually care. If it's an obvious self-insert, its just boring. If its more of a "rule of cool" thing than an interesting premise, then I won't get very invested. If someone comes up with a nice storyline and explanation as to why they are special, then that's what I play RPGs for, even if it's pretty unrealistic. But it's fantasy, so an expectation of normalcy and regularity kinds goes out the window right at the start.

 

[Sarathiour]

Shortbows and recurve bows meant for war have the same poundage as longbows. The dimensions of the bow aren't the determining factor when it comes to draw weight.

Citation needed, I'm by no mean an expert, but I'm not going to buy that bow used for horseback archery require the same amount of strength than a war longbow.

Not every engagement results in brawling. Women are far better suited to swinging a sharpened steel bar that weighs 3-5lbs than they are at pulling 100-120lbs with one arm. That's against unarmored to lightly armored foes mind, not heavy armor. As soon as heavy armor comes back into the mix or the melee is prolonged, then strength becomes needed for grappling and stamina for staving off exhaustion.

Even without protection, unless incredibly untrained, opponent won't jump willingly on your sword. I'm using brawling in a general way (though it's indeed quite literal in case of heavier armor), but you will generally try to keep the pointy or sharp part of the weapon away from your bodies by moving your feet or deflection. Weapons might not weight a lot, but I'll guarantee that you're going to feel the weight after swinging it without interruption for a few minutes.
Also you keep wanting this to be especially about longbow, but a hunting bow with a 60 lbs pull is also going to cause a lot of damage if it connects.

All of them look sub 45 pounds, which is not nearly enough to pierce armor.

Even with a 160 lbs, you're going to pierce jack shit :

 

[laclongquan]

Technically, in magic setting the gender difference in physical stat is negated with the help of magic, from equipments to concoctions to spells.

Thus the concept of real-life wimmin only belong to the kitchen is not very approriate.

This is logic~

This negation of difference is not applicable in real life because there's no viable way to do it. None. Zip. Nada.

 

[Saark]

Technically, in magic setting the gender difference in physical stat is negated with the help of magic, from equipments to concoctions to spells.

It's stupid because stats like STR, DEX etc. typically are less about directly comparing different characters, but are an approximation of the rarity of the potential a character expresses in each of the categories.

What's gonna happen if these people roll a die and the 22 STR barbarian rolls a nat 1 and pulls a muscle while that 14 STR archer rolls a 19 and beats the skill check? Are they gonna complain to the DM "B-b-b-ut women aren't as strong as men!"?

Most NPCs stats are somewhere between 8-12, with the average being somewhere around 10. By default you're playing an incredibly exceptional human (or whatever furry race you prefer) being, whether you use a standard array, point buy or just roll for stats. Sex-based differences don't matter the slightest once you're already talking about unicorn-rarity levels of physical or intellectual prowess.

 

[NecroLord]

As an example,Red Sonja has most of her melee combat prowess granted to her by the goddess Scathach. Of course,she is from Hyrkania. Life is hard in Robert E. Howard's Hyborian Age,so it would serve a woman right to at least be able to handle a weapon(if not fight back).
Most chainmail bikini babes have their skills granted to them by a higher power or deity. It is faith and belief that fuels these powers,not pure physical strength(a male is obviously more physically powerful than a female).

So...
Women and archery?

 

[Haba]

Funnily enough, all those Chinese cultivation settings have better internal logic than average female-empowerment fantasy.

Cultivators are so much far outside of the real of logic that it just doesn't matter. When a dude can punch through a planet, gender differences no longer pay a part. And conversely the "commoners" are worse than ants, so their differences don't matter either.

 

[thesecret1]

Women and archery?

If we're talking realism, archers should be the bulkiest, strongest motherfuckers in the land.

 

[HereticGuy]

wikipedia is completely worthless, trash-tier website

If you disagree, consider the following thought experiment:
Imagine you're using rpgcodex and anything you post can be edited by other users. No matter how true your statements are, I will win in the end due to sheer perseverance. You will have to sleep sometime. I will make everyone know you in fact love Fallout 4. I will stay entirely on top of all edits to my posts and undo them near immediately.
Now imagine there's not just one of me, but thousands.

You cannot compete with that. It doesn't matter how right you are.

That's some scary shit; I mean to be known as a Bethestard. I'd prefer to known as a flat-earther; it would be less humiliating.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Citation needed, I'm by no mean an expert, but I'm not going to buy that bow used for horseback archery require the same amount of strength than a war longbow.

110lbs recurve bow in action.

140lbs recurve in action.

Weapons might not weight a lot, but I'll guarantee that you're going to feel the weight after swinging it without interruption for a few minutes.
Also you keep wanting this to be especially about longbow, but a hunting bow with a 60 lbs pull is also going to cause a lot of damage if it connects.

I agree, but fatigue applies faster to a warbow than it ever will to a sword. A hunting bow at 60 pounds won't do shit to heavy armor.

Even with a 160 lbs, you're going to pierce jack shit : link

I suggest you watch Todd's followup video response to the feedback he received in that video's comment sections. The breastplate is not only the thickest piece of plate armor, not all of them were made equally, and out of the quality steel that he chose. Moreover, the plates on the vembraces, rerebraces, greaves, gauntlets and even the sides of the breastplate are much thinner gauge. Yes, breastplates protected you against arrows most of the time, but that is just one piece of the armor out of many. Another round of tests is supposedly coming down the pipe from him.

 

[laclongquan]

Are you discussing shits in Real-Life game, or are you discussing things in fantasy games?

Decide one. Because we dont particularly interest in Real-Life game.

True true, a real life bow need heaviest breast muscle to pull and women dont have those muscles.

But fantasies can have magic (either affect the shooter or the bow in question), or bow material (from magic creatures), or magic effect air itself etc and etc that render those muscles not very necessary. All of which doesnt exist in Real-Life.

High tech material is possible but the effect is not very good.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

it's ~fantasy~ therefore nothing matters

gnomes are just as strong as ogres, stop being a bigot, it's ~FANTASY~

 

[Sarathiour]

A hunting bow at 60 pounds won't do shit to heavy armor.

Yes, but just bashing someone with a sword won't do much either

I suggest you watch Todd's followup video response to the feedback he received in that video's comment sections.

yeah, I saw it, but those part does not protect vital point either, plus good luck hitting a specific part of the armor over 100 m in the confusion of a battle.

 

[KainenMorden]

This thread while interesting, has gone completely off the rails.

Can anyone give me a good reason why women in RPGs should be anything more than quest givers, damsels in distress and prostitutes?

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Yes, but just bashing someone with a sword won't do much either

Correct, but then were both at the understanding that a woman is not going to be able to deal with anyone in full plate no matter what she's using. I say that she's better off with the sword, (if sword's primary attribute was dex like they ought to be) because realistically you need less strength to fight with one effectively even against the lower tiers of armor, making it more suitable for nimble female characters.

yeah, I saw it, but those part does not protect vital point either, plus good luck hitting a specific part of the armor over 100 m in the confusion of a battle.

They weren't shooting at targets 100 meters away, that would be a tremendous waste of a finite state resource and much of the energy would be robbed in flight. Your arms and legs are vital on the battlefield, without them you're worthless, but yes, pinpoint accuracy was not to be expected, which meant that strength was again all the more important. The ability to churn out many arrows without tiring so that those weaker spots can be hit.

How this translates into an RPG would be to occupy a heavily armored foe with your own tank and have the archer hit him from the sides with relative impunity after they get done mopping up the enemy casters and rogues if there were any.

 

[Alex]

Technically, in magic setting the gender difference in physical stat is negated with the help of magic, from equipments to concoctions to spells.

Thus the concept of real-life wimmin only belong to the kitchen is not very approriate.

This is logic
(...)

If magic can make women as strong as a man, it could make a man even stronger yet. You could make an excuse as to why that would only apply to women, but that comes at the expense of verisimilitude; in which case you might have avoided giving an explanation altogether.

(...)
It's stupid because stats like STR, DEX etc. typically are less about directly comparing different characters, but are an approximation of the rarity of the potential a character expresses in each of the categories.

In crummy systems, yeah. In better systems, what the actual numbers mean should be something concrete, even if it isn't clearly specified. In most systems, strength at least is somewhat defined, since the numbers will usually have a specific weight the character with that strength can carry or lift. Other attributes might not be so well defined, but might at least have a "soft" definition. For instance, in GURPS, a dexterity of 10 indicates the abilities of an average human, as well as the ability of someone with basic gun training to hit a target under certain conditions (sorry, I don't have the rulebook with me to be specific) half of the time.

What's gonna happen if these people roll a die and the 22 STR barbarian rolls a nat 1 and pulls a muscle while that 14 STR archer rolls a 19 and beats the skill check? Are they gonna complain to the DM "B-b-b-ut women aren't as strong as men!"?

Depends on what those numbers mean. If we were talking AD&D 2e, I think a simple contest of strength shouldn't even be allowed. A STR of 22 is as strong as a mid tier giant (one below cloud giant, I think). While a literal pulling of a muscle could happen, it shouldn't happen 5% of the time.

Most NPCs stats are somewhere between 8-12, with the average being somewhere around 10. By default you're playing an incredibly exceptional human (or whatever furry race you prefer) being, whether you use a standard array, point buy or just roll for stats. Sex-based differences don't matter the slightest once you're already talking about unicorn-rarity levels of physical or intellectual prowess.

Not really, at least,not in most games. Your supe special strength 8 magic user in D&D 3e is still weaker than the average peasant, even if he could take more punishment and hit more often than them. In D&D (which tends to set the tone for fantasy gaming) characters are still supposed to represent their origins. A human fighter, especially at early levels, is still very much a human in terms of what he can accomplish, even if a particularly gifted one.

Other than that, while a str 13 woman might beat a strength 22 man in 3e, it is in great part because of how crummy the system is. A str 4 cat will beat the same barbarian in an str contest 19.5% (edit: sorry, actually it is 13.75%, which is still pretty high and not counting criticals or fumbles*) of the time in that system.

*If you count natural 1s as always a failure unless the other guy also rolls a 1 and a natural 20 as a success unless the other guy also rolls a 20, then the chance of a tiny housecat beating a barbarian as strong as a giant raises to 18.25%.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

pretty face and big boobs

Unfortunately rare in the RPG called "Real Life".

Southeastern Yurop

Checks out

 

[BING XI LAO]

Fantasy should exaggerate differences, not level them.

 

[NecroLord]

pretty face and big boobs

Unfortunately rare in the RPG called "Real Life".

Southeastern Yurop

Checks out

What are you talking about,nigga? Women here are pretty fine. Not the typical Western woke sluts with daddy issues and multiple pronouns.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

What are you talking about,nigga? Women here are pretty fine.

If that's the case then why would say pretty, big tittied girls are a rarity? Don't you see such specimens in the streets there?

 

[KainenMorden]

My parents are both from there and I've been on long trips there. There are woke sluts there too but not that many.

I do occasionally hear stories of some of them dating Muslims/Africans and then ending up dead in a ditch.

Its a different world from north/western europe and USA/UK for sure and the women are beautiful and many have great bodies.

Denying this is Russian propaganda.

 

[NecroLord]

If that's the case then why would say pretty, big tittied girls are a rarity?

I meant natural big tittied girls,brother. No "enhancements" whatsoever.

KainenMorden It also depends on their socio-economic standing and upbringing.
Those stories here are really rare(compared to the rape marathons going on in Sweden,for example).

 

[Sarathiour]

Correct, but then were both at the understanding that a woman is not going to be able to deal with anyone in full plate no matter what she's using. I say that she's better off with the sword, (if sword's primary attribute was dex like they ought to be) because realistically you need less strength to fight with one effectively even against the lower tiers of armor, making it more suitable for nimble female characters.

We both agree on the first statement, but I'm reaching the opposite conclusion. I think you considerably underestimate the degree of raw strength needed in close combat, swordfighting is not fencing, the combat stop when someone is incapacitated, not on first blood. Claiming that longsword are dex weapon is just silly, and for one-handed sword it's even sillier. Against someone not in full plate who's physically way stronger than you, trying to take him from afar seems like the less hazardous option.

Your arms and legs are vital on the battlefield, without them you're worthless, but yes, pinpoint accuracy was not to be expected, which meant that strength was again all the more important. The ability to churn out many arrows without tiring so that those weaker spots can be hit.

This is still highly hypothetical, most record agreed that arrow were barely effective on a knight wearing full plate.

Also, rpg rarely try to simulate pitch-battle, and you're going to run into the problem of armor system as a whole, especially regarding projectile. Trying to pelt someone until you hit some weak spot by chance is hardly realist or sensible battle plan.

 

[KainenMorden]

Of course bro, I understand it's a rare occurrence.

Southern euros have their liberals and are kind people in general in my experience but they're not cucked at all and when something happens, they go to the immigrant neighborhoods and start beating them with pipes whether they are guilty of anything or not.

 

[NecroLord]

Generally immigrants in this part of Europe keep to themselves,no BLM chimpouts or "refugees welcome" around here. Somalian scientists are usually deported if they cause trouble,not glorified and put on a pedestal a la Western Europe.
It is a matter of respecting the people and culture you are trying to adapt to.

 

[Dadd]

What practical benefits do big breasts provide, why didn't middle eastern sages think to snip that "excess" skin like they did with male genitals?

If women were to get strength penalties in RPGs for being women, they should get additional dexterity and movement penalties for having large breasts.